Hi new here would like some honest opinions about my daughter

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by mama2three, May 1, 2012.

  1. mama2three

    mama2three New Member

    I'm Ashlee I am a 25 yo mom to three wonderful kids. DS1 is 5, daughter just turned 3 on April 29th, and DS2 is 1. Me and their father my SO are together all living in the same house but, not married. We have such an awesome family and I consider myself completely blessed beyond words.
    My DS1 is incredibly smart he is in Kdg. reading at a first grade level. He is a really good kid. Never really any behavior issues except for and occasional whine or back talk. My DS2 is very sweet and very inquistive being he is 1.
    Now to daughter, She is my Princess my only girl who I love so much. since she was about i'd say like 20 months, I started noticing behavior issues, usual terrible twos so I thought. Then DS2 came along right before she turned 2 so I assumed this was jealousy of the new baby and what-not. But, Nothing has improved about her behavior only worsening. I'm really begining to worry. She will explode at the drop of a hat. What I mean when I say expolde is she will scream in your face when she doesn't get her way, She slaps, bites, punches, kicks, spits, bites herself, pulls her own hair, and she is has just recently started hiding food in odd places, eg. under the couch behind a chair in her room. Then she will ask for another snack and then crumble it into peices (smash or throw depending on the snack) after telling her no several times. She is mean to her siblings she hits, slaps, pinches them when i'm not looking. Has had melt downs in public but not very much.
    As I am sitting here typing this all out i am in tears. This is not my baby girl my princess. She can be so sweet and loving. She will give you the best hug you ever had in your life. When she gets kisses she make sure to rub them in. I love her so darn much. But, i am grasping here. Her behavior is out of control. Everyone keeps telling me "she will grow out of it" "she is just being a kid" this is not normal to me atleast. I mentioned ADD/ADHD to the doctor once and she quickly dismissed me looking angry I even mentioned it. My half brother has ADD/ADHD and what I think is undiagnosed Bi-Polar.

    Tell me i'm not crazy. I feel like a bad parent for even thinking something is wrong with my baby girl .



  2. buddy

    buddy New Member

    Hello Ashlee, first....welcome. You are among people who know first hand that YOU are the expert in your child and for sure you are NOT crazy. I can think of many here who can relate to you and especially am thinking of Malika (I bet she will check in but she is in France so may not see this for a little while)....because of the way you know there is something but others can't really see it or may dismiss it.

    One thing that actually takes a lot of time to develop, and even when you do...it can waffle.... is to TRUST your GUT. One thing that is well researched and well documented is that early intervention is best. So, regardless of what is under all of this, the sooner you get help the better.

    Typically it IS hard to get a firm diagnosis for a young child without an obvious genetic disorder, or tests that can show damage, etc. Exception is in the case of very low functioning kids of course. But for kids who can appear on the surface as relatively OK, parents are often blamed for their behavior (and heck, of course we can all improve, but most of us here have parenting issues because our kids are wired differently, they really need a different parenting road map and so of course we have issues too!)

    OK, before I talk evaluations and books, just double checking. It will help to have more information about her early development, any issues with her birth etc? Any health issues? You told us about the family history for adhd/bipolar. And yes these CAN be issues so you are good to start now keeping notes of behaviors, times of day, foods eaten, situations surrounding the behaivors (transition, change in plans, weather, parties, social play dates etc.) because over the years this will support your need for help/therapy. You are smart to start this now, even if it ends up a phase, you have it if ever in the future she has another phase and it turns out to be a subtle something...smile. Most of us have tried more typical positive reinforcement methods (little stickers or treats for doing specific goals on a chart etc....all at her level so no earning things over a week at her age....) as well as traditional parenting consequences like short time outs and not attending to the negative behaviors etc. Taking a toy away that has been thrown or whatever... Most of us try and find these things have limited potential to change their behavior in the long run if they are truly wired differently. Have you been down this road already???

    So, first things first....do you have insurance that would cover an evaluation with an early childhood specialist in Neuropsychology or at a child development clinic? If you need a referral the way to ask for it is to (in my humble opinion) TELL them you need a referral to (X) you name the place etc. You do NOT want a referral to a typical psychiatric because they will make it about parenting issues (unless you feel your parenting is the reason but given you have two without issues, I doubt it). I suspect she has some underlying problems that need to be identified and this can be really tricky at her age.

    What many of us do is to get a complete Occupational Therapist (OT) (occupational therapy) evaluation because there can be subtle or hidden issues like motor planning and sensory integration challenges which can really make a child driven to distraction. What comes in (sights, sounds, touch, smell, tastes) is not interpreted by the brain as a typical child. Some kids need more of some things and some need less...things can really bug them (does she have any issues with clothing or cover her ears or make lots of extra sounds or loud, do smells bother her, does she have eating issues of any kind--even picky??). Also get a complete Speech-Language Assessment (Speech Language Pathologist (SLP)) to make sure she is not frustrated in her communication. Of course hearing is checked and some kids can have normal hearing but again, what they hear may get mixed up in certain situations like when there is noise etc. At her age, teh Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) can start to watch to see if she is understanding words in different environments, can tell if she has good language but a hard time using it in social situations (to get her needs met etc...or does she use behavior for that communication when frustrated??)

    Take those results to a neuropsycology evaluation. You will want a neuropsychologist who works with early childhood. A neuropsychologist is a psychologist who links behavior to how our brains are wired. So they have added training and do not automatically go to the conclusion that the child is just being raised incorrectly.

    there are other ways, like a developmental pediatrician and a similar team approach. There are also Early Childhood developmental centers that specialize in chidhood behaviors and evaluations, working with mental and emotional health, developmental issues like autism etc.

    The other thing that may help right away is to get the book What your Explosive Child is trying to tell you by Doug Riley. the other book many of us like is The Explosive Child by Ross Greene....there is a section here that talks about adapting that to the early childhood child. the first book has specific parts for early childhood and again if you search on this site you will even see comments when he came here to talk a little with people. (he is not an owner of this site or anything I am not advertising for him, it simply is really helpful). these people show us that there really is another way and helps to reduce the stress of parenting a child like this.

    I have found used books on amazon.com for super low cost and the book I just got was in great shape though listed as "good".

    Anyway, I am sure many questions and ideas are to come. Welcome to our group and please know I am sharing your tears. It is heart breaking when our kids struggle like this. So, sending you a supportive hand hold and hug.... Love, Dee (Buddy)
  3. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Hi, and welcome.
    Glad you found us... sorry you had to!

    First... you are not a bad parent.
    WE - on this board - are other parents, who have had that label given to us, or given it to ourselves, far too often.

    No. Instead, you have a very challenging child.
    There could be a wide range of reasons for that...
    We're not experts - just other parents, but... we have challenging kids too.

    Sounds like this is your biological daughter, right?
    So, not likely to be prenatal exposure to drugs or alcohol, from a stable environment?

    In which case... you have a child who is wired differently.
    Others will be along with more questions... and suggestions.
    We tend to ask questions, because it helps us see more of the picture...

    Hang in there... others WILL be along.
  4. mama2three

    mama2three New Member

    Wow thank you guys so much for the quick responses. I feel happy to have found somewhere, where I can actually talk about this where i'm not looked at like a bad parent. The suggestions were wonderful.
    We have medicaid insurance. i'm going to call the regular pedi and get her an appointment with Occupational Therapist (OT) first. Maybe speech if I can. I forgot to mention I am an LPN an I work in a school with a little girl who has some health issues. We are in the Hearing Impared class and 90% of the kids in this class have some sort of ADD/ADHD. So I do have a little experience with it. But, when it's your own kids all knowledge seems to go out the window! :(

    I had a great pregnancy with her, no comlpications till delivery. I had un-diagnosis Placental Accretia (not very severe case). Which caused me to bleed out I went into schock had several transfusions. But, this is all after she had been deliverd. She has always been on track developmentally. Crawled about 8 months walked by 1. She has also always been slightly chunky. She is in the 50% for height but above 95% for weight. But, this has been consistant since birth so the doctor wasn't overly worried. She always seems to be hungry always asks for snack even after having a large meal like dinner. I have tired to limit the amount of snacks I give. Try to make sure its as healthy as a 3 year old will eat. No juice No extra sugar, the poor thing rarely gets candy:( well none of my kids do LOL. I like to be healthy. ;)

    One other thing I can think of is my SO is hispanic and speaks only Spanish to her and I only English. She has seemed to cope well and is using both languages quite fluently. She was a little delayed I would say on the speach front, just now really is starting to form complex sentences. But, then again the doctor says that it is normal in a bi-lingual child. I cant use my oldest DS as a reference because he is not SO's biological child came into the picture when DS1 was about 16 months and already began talking so has always used English with him. DS1 knows some spanish when prompted but not often. daughter uses both frequently. She know to talk to daddy in spanish and mommy in english. So I don't know. If I left any unanswered questions let me know. Thank you so much you guys have already been extremely helpful pointing me in the right direction!
  5. Ktllc

    Ktllc New Member

    Welcome! You ARE a wonderfull mom because you look for answers. You see some issues and instead of burying your head in the sand, you seek answers/solutions.
    My kids are also raised bilingual but I don't believe it accounts for their issues: look at my signature! lol All 3 have been in speech at one point or an other.
    My 6 year old is also in K and also read at 1st grade level. I could have 10 kids like him.
    V, on the other hand... well a lot more challenging. About a year ago, I was crying avery night because he made our lives a nightmare. You should have seen the chaos in our house.
    Like others said: speech evaluation, Occupational Therapist (OT) evaluation first. They are fairly easy to obtain. Then find a neuro-psychiatric, developmental pediatrician in your area and get on the waiting list. It usually is sevarl months so you don't want to waste anymore time than you have to.
    Knowledge is power. Become an expert in your child issues. Learn to understand the issues behind the behavior.
    It is a process, a journey and you won't do it overnight. But it WILL get better.
    Come here often and know that you are not alone.
  6. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Hi there and welcome :)

    Well, obviously you're a good mother. But your Mom Gut is speaking to you and in my opinion you should trust it. She is not behaving like a typical child and it would be a good idea to begin the evaluation process, which may take a while, but at least she will probably be able to get early education help in school, even if she is not delayed academically. Maybe your rough pregnancy affected her (this is still NOT your fault). She seems to be wired differently.

    I would get on the waiting list for a neuropsychologist. I don't believe in doing the Occupational Therapist (OT) evaluation first, unless you also plain on doing PT and a neuropsychologist evaluation too because an Occupational Therapist (OT) and a PT do not have the knowledge to figure out if there is one big underlying diagnosis causing all the other issues and a neuropsychologist can basically give you the main problem that will lead to interventions and help. in my opinion I'd rather see one guy first than somebody schooled in only one area of function right at the start. You will likely visit an Occupational Therapist (OT) or PT in time, possibly as part of an intervention program. Say, she has ADHD or Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) or a mood disorder...you can then assess which other problems need to be addressed. I believe most people do it this way, however it is up to the mom :)

    At any rate, I hope you do get an evaluation and keep in touch :)
  7. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    MWM -
    THIS is where we overlap! <grin>
    The key phrase is: "unless you also plain on doing ... a neuropsychologist evaluation too"

    Occupational Therapist (OT), Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) and other evaluations will NEVER replace a comprehensive evaluation.
    I'm one who suggests getting Occupational Therapist (OT) and other evaluations if appropriate, before the comprehensive... but always in the context of a comprehensive evaluation coming.

    The level of detail to which an Occupational Therapist (OT) or Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) can to go in their area of expertise, exceeds what a comprehensive evaluator can do. Occupational Therapist (OT) or Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) has depth in one area, but not cross-functional training. Comprehensive evaluators have breadth of knowledge, but not the depth in any one area. Having the Occupational Therapist (OT) and other reports first is suggested so that you can take that info to the comprehensive evaluator... and they WILL use it. They respect the depth of these other professionals in their specific areas of expertise.

    The reason I'm so big on getting the narrow details first is that three rounds with comprehensive evaluators didn't come close to finding the problem for our difficult child. We needed the Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) and Occupational Therapist (OT) evaluations. It wasn't until we had those results that a comprehensive evaluator could complete the picture.
  8. buddy

    buddy New Member

    100% agree with IC, really nice way to put it.... Unless you have a solid diagnosis like Cerebral Palsy or some such thing then yeah, you might be on track to go just for the Occupational Therapist (OT) or Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) evaluation...or if you have a child who is just hard to understand but no other issues etc.

    Bringing in the detailed information that an Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) and Occupational Therapist (OT) can provide can help guide the neuropsychologist in their choice of tests too....

    If I was just starting out and had no access to Occupational Therapist (OT) or Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) I would for sure go to the neuropsychologist or developmental pediatrician first. But these guys can take a long time and so getting the Occupational Therapist (OT) and Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) done also helps to start to put things together. (or PT by the way if you are having trouble in gross motor areas)

    In any event getting them all done is important, whether or not you do the neuropsychologist first...if there are issues then check it out even if it does not show up in neuropsychologist testing. I have been in meetings where I had done in depth testing and knew there were processing problems and the neuropsychologist had said that language was fine so the parents were confused. The NP then explained to them that his testing was not as comprehensive in those areas.
  9. mama2three

    mama2three New Member

    Yes that does make alot of sense. I had to read it a few times. LOL alot of words i'm not used to. I think my best bet because I have no idea what i'm dealing with is to get a complete evaluation. Is the best thing to ask for first the Occupational Therapist (OT) evaluation? Then take the info gathered from the Occupational Therapist (OT) to the neurophych? Forgive me but, what is Speech Language Pathologist (SLP)?
  10. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Book the comprehensive first... it often takes MONTHS to get in there. You want to get on that list as soon as possible.
    Then, while you are waiting, look into the others - often their wait lists are much shorter.
    If you don't have all the other stuff done before you get there? no big deal.
    But anything you can bring to the table, helps.

    Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) - speech language pathologist. I don't know what ALL they cover (maybe Buddy will see this thread - she IS one...), but they do work with anything from deaf/hard-of-hearing to speech problems to language processing problems... and can screen for things like hearing and APDs.
  11. mama2three

    mama2three New Member

    Ok great thanks so now I know what to ask for when I call here in a few minutes. Again thanks so much for all your guys help Ill let you all know what they say and when I get my appointment.
  12. buddy

    buddy New Member

    Yup, that's what I'd suggest, book the neuropsychologist (if your insurance doesn't cover it or you can't do private pay, insurance will sometimes cover a developmental pediatrician clinic which sometimes has the other specialists all work as a team) but try for the neuropsychologist if you can first...

    As I/C said then book the others which will likely be more easily scheduled. I for example can call straight to the clinic I want to go to and just give them teh neuro or pediatricians name (I then leave a message for that doctor saying, by the way you will be getting a call to refer my son for an evaluation, thanks for doing that... HAHAHAHA..it always has worked for me).

    Occupational Therapist (OT) (occupational therapist, their credential will say OTR in the USA which means registered Occupational Therapist (OT)) will look at motor development and sensory integration....

    Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) (speech language pathologist... their credential will say M.A. or M.S.-CCC, Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) ...ccc is certificate of clinical competence and Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) is sp.lang... if you go to an audiologist they are covered by the same board so ccc-A)
    That person will look at motor speech mechanism (how the anatomy, muscles and nerves of the mouth and respiratory system work for communication), how speech sounds are developing, how understanding of language is coming along, how using language to get wants and needs met is coming along...and general how does the child communicate socially (called pragmatic language evaluation).

    If there are feeding issues both the Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) and the Occupational Therapist (OT) can do it depending on their additional interest and training, both make sense because of the areas they treat physically. The hospital I worked in all the brain injured people or people who had strokes etc... had the Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) do the feeding evaluations and radiology studies. Dont know if that is an issue for you but it can be for many kids. I like the team approach for that, both working on it because it can be soooo frustrating for the family and at times even life threatening.
  13. mama2three

    mama2three New Member

    Do I need a refferal for the neuropsychologist from the regualr pedi?
  14. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    IC, I can't speak for the neuropsychs you've seen. Ours ask about and check motor skills and auditory processing problems too (or test for them). We did use Occupational Therapist (OT), PT and ST, but totally in the context of interventions. I'm not sure they are even allowed to do any diagnosing in the US. (Scratching head). I just don't know. I would go to the Big Guy first and the "extras" later on because to get help in the US you need the BIG diagnosis...that's how it works. At least that's how it has worked for us :)
  15. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    What happens if the kid doesn't HAVE a "big" diagnosis?
    That was our case... and in that case, the approach of a comprehensive evaluator doesn't catch the severity of the other issues... and we end up with nothing. On every front.
  16. JJJ

    JJJ Active Member

    If you are in the US, you can get a free screening through the schools. Now, this will not be at detailed as you want but it is free and happens relatively quickly.
  17. buddy

    buddy New Member

    Of course Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) and Occupational Therapist (OT) can diagnosis. Right from the dsm. But of course related to their fields. Paid alot of money went to school took national boards and had lots pf clinical training to earn that privelege, LOL ....
  18. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I am sorry that this happened to you. Did you see a neuropsychologist? I mean, some sock, just like some are great. And, of course, it may be different in Canada...not sure.

    If a child is raging and acting out in school, there is probably a big diagnosis. If there isn't one it is very hard to get services. The neuropsychs know the right wording. Bipolar...you will get services. Autism...for sure. ADHD...only sometimes and usually only if there are co-morbids. Auditory Processing Disorders (APD) alone? Not sure. My daughter had it, but she had so many other LDs to go along with it she got to go to the Learning Disability (LD) class...she was a non-reader in third grade. She also had ADD. Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD)? Not sure anyone in the US school world ever heard of it. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) alone? Probably, if it is evident and affects the child's learning. My son (oldest) has Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and before medications this very intelligent young man had to drop out of college because he couldn't stop counting the Professor's words so he could not concentrate on anything other than that. In high school this would have been grounds for interventions, but he did not have the symptoms in high school.

    I always recommend a neuropsychologist first. Usually the big issues bring along the other ones. Say you have Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). You are apt to also have sensory integration disorder, processing problems, attention problems, learning problems etc. and they ALL get helped because Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) *has* to be accomodated in school. Bipolar? The rages, inattentiveness and other issues are addressed as well. Or they should be. Also, there is often leeway toward behavioral issues...it is harder to suspend a mentally ill child.

    In the state of Wisconsin, there are certain disorders that MUST be addressed and the ones not listed you really have to fight to get help for, if you even can. Here is kind of an amusing story and example. My son's first diagnosis was ADHD/ODD. He had been behind in school, like many Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids, but also, like many, caught up in language, at least on the surface. Still, the school would not believe anything was wrong and would not accomodate him at all.

    The day we brought his Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified diagnosis. to school, there was a big flutter to help him because that is a form of autism. They even easily allowed us to transfer him to another school, at their expense along with free bus service door-to-door, to get him to a program that was better for an Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kid's needs. We never had any trouble with the school after that...hehe. It's partly politics...and knowing the ropes.

    Sonic graduates this year. He is 88% better than when he started out and his diagnosis got him there. He could barely function in school before all of his interventions. Now he will be about, well, 88% independent and I am really happy with the services he got. He is also getting adult services to help him become as independent as possible, including employment and housing, which would not happen if his diagnosis had been, say, Sensory Integration Disorder (SID) alone. Anyhow, this is my story. :)
  19. buddy

    buddy New Member

    My experience with neuropsychs is that there are some that are better than others just as any profession. Their conclusions are based on multiple tests and communication affects everything in life so there should nearly always be an in depth Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) evaluation when there are major behavior issues. Behavior is very often communication related. The depth of evaluations done is not done by a neuropsychologist but they do understand the conclusions/results and it can give them much better data to add to the big diagnosis. And for a kid who doesnt meet criteria for a bigger diagnosis. ....if something has become evident the neuropsychologist will see that and you may not going to get a vague "somethings going on" and they can back up the findings and need for accommodations. Some kids really don't get big diagnosis. Yet they sure can be totally falling apart because of a fluency disorder or receptive or expressive language disorder including aphasia or apraxia or processing issues .....because having trouble communicating which affects every other area....academics, peers, church, work, athletics, etc. I feel that it is a similar story for motor and sensory difficulties.

    Bottom line doing all of them covers the bases (again with good neuropsychologist, Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) Occupational Therapist (OT) pt ...) and I'd always opt for that if possible. by the way, having no big diagnosis before an evaluation can help people keep an open mind for issues rather than only looking for the related symptoms. Wouldn't be my criteria for order of evaluations but it can be a plus at times.
  20. soapbox

    soapbox Member

    Ditto what Buddy said... except she missed one.
    SLPs can also catch APDs - auditory processing disorders. And some of these are very subtle.

    Our difficult child was a "no big diagnosis" kid. Still is. But... his combo of dxes was a killer, until we found out what all the pieces were. And one of those is.... Auditory Processing Disorders (APD): auditory figure ground. His noise filters are so bad that he basically can't listen if there is background noise.

    And NO comprehensive evaluator caught that one. In fact, the first Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) evaluation missed it too... because they weren't using the tests that would have caught it.