Hot Sauce and Ice Cold Showers as Punishment?????

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by Stella Johnson, Aug 17, 2011.

  1. Stella Johnson

    Stella Johnson Active Member

    I don't know what to think of this. The twins are adopted from Russia and I know many of them that came from orphanages can have an array of diagnoses. The things they did wrong mentioned in the article clearly do not warrant dumping hot sauce in their mouths and shoving them in freezing showers. They live in Anchorage so when I saw cold it is freakin cold if you run straight cold tap water because the ground is permafrost.

    I'd like to know more about the boys before I judge the mom for going to such extremes. By no means do I agree with what she did. She clearly needs help and possibly shouldn't have the twins at all. If the boys behaviors were that extreme and nothing else worked they should have sought professional help. The dad is a cop. He should have known this if she was too ignorant to do it.

    I remember the days when absolutely nothing worked to correct difficult child's behavior. Lying to a teacher wouldn't have been something I would go off the deep end about but my difficult child never had a problem with lying. Her issues were raging for hours, threatening suicide, assaulting caregivers, etc. So if the worst thing about these kids is lying to a teacher then this woman is an idiot. But on the other hand it just seems like this article isn't giving all the background on the behaviors and the family. The media is known to leave things out.

    Anyone else heard about this? What are your thoughts? Part of me wants to contact her and send her here. Part of me wants her to go to jail. Part of me feels sympathy for her if there is more behind this. I'd like to find more info though.
  2. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Well, Im torn too. Its sort of a media spin thing too. How much hot sauce did she use? A sprinkle, a whole bottle? I have to admit we use hot sauce once and scrubbing Cory's mouth out with soap one time. I can explain both times. The hot sauce was when Tony uses Texas Pete on his food for lots of food. He had been putting it on something we had for dinner that night, I think meatloaf. We also had mashed potatoes. We warned Cory repeated not to use the hot sauce probably 10 times over dinner. Both Tony and I had left the table to remove our dishes while the boys were still eating and when we got back, Cory's mashed potatoes were PINK with hot sauce! He sat there that night and ate every bite. That was simple and complete defiance.

    The time he got his mouth washed out with soap was when he was with me in a doctors office and he decided to call me the B word for the first time. I was so mortified I dragged him into the bathroom and scrubbed his mouth out with the only thing available, liquid hand soup and brown paper towels. He was spitting bubbles for an
  3. Stella Johnson

    Stella Johnson Active Member

    Cory's incident with the hot sauce was very different. He was defiant, took it knowing you told him no, and put it on his own food. He should have had to eat it. He put it there. It wasn't you dumping it in his mouth.

    I have a friend who used to use it. she called it "Sassy Juice" when her kids acted up in any way. For the most part she has really good kids. I never agreed with it. Never agreed with soap either. I can understand your reaction at him calling you that the firsst time. It was probably more out of shock than anything. But this girl used it almost daily. I noticed lately I never hear her even threaten her kids with it. I haven't asked if she stopped. Just happy not to hear her threatening or doing it in front of me anymore.

    The tactics she is using for discipline are torture, not discipline. there is no reason to make a child take a freezing cold shower anywhere, especially not in Alaska. That is pure torture. I'm going to guess she has never stood under freezing Alaska water before. I think they should order her to do it for the same amt of time her kids did it. I'd like to see the Dr. Phil show. I'm going to see if I can find it online. I'm happy people turned her in. I've seen some real freaks admit to flat out child abuse on there in the past. Always wondered if those people got turned in. Glad to see they really do.

    This entire family needs help. Part of me thinks this woman probably shouldn't have those kids. I don't think she's cut out for it. I'm going to bet you $50 she's never done either of those things to her biological kids.
  4. Stella Johnson

    Stella Johnson Active Member

    OMG. I wanted to throw up. I sat here crying watching this woman's own video. She had her DAUGHTER video what she did to him to send to Dr. Phil. Did she really think this was appropriate? If she does she has no business having these children. And to have another child video her torturing that poor baby? I don't care what he did. It doesn't warrant torture. We aren't allowed to do that to prisoners who murdered little old ladies.... but she did it to her sons. Over and over again.
    This is the video she sent Dr. Phil. It aired August 8th.
  5. Stella Johnson

    Stella Johnson Active Member

    Forgot to mention, she didn't just splash the hot sauce in his mouth. She poured it, as seen on her own video she was so proud of. I have no idea how long that cold shower lasted. He hadn't gotten out when the video ended. She should go to prison but so should her husband. There's no way he didn't know because obviously she's proud of what she was doing. Must have thought she would get a book deal on how to parent from Dr. Phil. The so called father is a cop and stood by and let his wife do these things. He's no better than she is.
  6. timer lady

    timer lady Queen of Hearts

    As the parent of severely attachment disordered twins, I can understand this woman's frustration, anger. And I'm betting these kids are Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) after spending 3 years in an orphanage.

    Saying that, it's never appropriate to use this type of consequence. AND the story likely isn't giving the entire picture of the children's behaviors. Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) children push you to hurt them ~ their manipulations are extreme.

    Russia can be all up in arms all they want. The children that are up for adoption tend to be some of the most challenging in the world as Russia & Romania are labeled "Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) capital of the world" by the adoption communities.
  7. keista

    keista New Member

    Sorry, but if this is the extent of the boy's bad behavior, the woman needs to be strung up by her toenails!

    OK, just watched the video, and could not finish it. Apparently a cold show is his punishment for having a card pulled at school! Nope, sorry, ain't gonna happen, this woman gets NO sympathy from me. She is NOT dealing with a difficult child there. She's an abusive control freak!
  8. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    My first big problem with this is that Dr Phil did not call authorities and neither did ANYONE from his show. I DO NOT CARE if she was asking for help from him. What she was doing was CLEAR CHILD ABUSE and NOTHING gets them out of being mandated reporters!!!! For this alone Dr Phil should have NO MORE license and NO MORE tv show!!! Where was HE in protecting these poor babies???

    Janet, what you did with the hot sauce was to have Cory experience the natural and logical consequences of his actions. HE applied the hot sauce after ample warnings AND straight out being told not to. You did NOT use it as discipline for unrelated behaviors. I have NO CLUE why people think hot sauce is okay as a punishment - to me the next logical step if that is okay is to peppe spray your kids - clearly not OK. I remember reading a story in Reader's Digest about a little boy named Robbie Wayne and how his parents abused him to death. I was around 12 or so and the use of hot sauce as punishment struck me as particularly horrific then and still does.

    The cold shower? No way in Hades is that appropriate. Not in a warmer climate and O.M.G. NOT IN ALASKA!!! Reminds me of the ice baths they used to force mental patients to lay in for hours - sheer abuse.

    Punishment/discipline for kids is supposed to help them learn something. What could possibly be learned by hot sauce and cold showers for their behaviors?

    We DID use showers as a tool with Wiz at a couple of points. First was at a time when he literally would get into a strange sort of rage and not be himself - a shock of cool water snapped him out of it. Did NOT get used as cold water - lukewarm was used. It was used like slapping a hysterical person. It worked and even the FIRST time we did it we had already scheduled an appointment with his docs to figure out what was going on. It happened maybe four or five times. The SECOND he was himself he was taken out, dried off, cuddled, and we talked about what happpened and why the shower. Later we also did them as a consequence for refusing to shower, to use soap while showering, etc.... He had to keep going back in until he actually came out clean. If he used up all the hot water, well, he had PLENTY of time to go in and get clean in warm water or whatever temp water he wanted.

    Hot sauce is a tried and true method to abuse a child. People have been using it that way for generations - it was abuse back then and it is abuse right now. there is a REASON that none of us have ever seen it in The Explosive Child, Parenting with Love adn Logic, or any other parenting book!!

    This family needs to be split up. The kids to families who will love them and parent them appropriately and the parents to prison and sentenced to NEVER have custody again.

    I do not think being Mormon has anything to do with it. One article made a big deal about them being Mormon, but this is NOT part of their religion - it is their own twisted choice.

    Those kids ALL need a ton of therapy.

    I am quite sure we are seeing only the very tip of the iceberg. I know how frustrating lying can be to handle and I know that a huge % of kids from foreign adoptions have Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) and other problems. But this poor kid isn't acting the way he is for sh**s and giggles - he is mentally ill and likely has brain damage from prenatal exposure to drugs and alcohol. He is NOT going to learn anything from hot sauce and freezing showers except that his "mommy" hates him and wants to hurt him.

    If those kids are not removed from these adults' clutches then I have NO pity for the adults when the twins become teens and turn on them and torture them to death. It will be a case of getting what you ask for, in my opinion.
  9. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    To be fair, a child adopted from Eastern Europe is probably going to be hell on earth to raise. There are exceptions, but these are orphanage babies usually with attachment problems and many with fetal alcohol affects. I am not judging when I state the fact that many adopt from there because they can adopt a caucasian child, however there are better, safer countries to adopt from.

    On the other hand, if you can not handle a child's wild behavior any better than that, in my opinion it is kinder to call your agency and tell them that you can not handle the children. The woman is sadistically abusing them (and I don't care WHAT they did). She has the option, as we all do, of calling social services and asking them to remove the children. My guess is that maybe she DID use these abusive methods on her biol. kids. She doesn't seem to have coping skills and often this extreme punishing is because of an "I WILL win, you brat" attitude. Raising kids isn't a contest.

    I'd love to know which adoption agency thought she'd be a good parent, yet I know that one can lie to an agency pretty easily. (sigh)
  10. ksm

    ksm Well-Known Member

    THis show first ran about a year ago. She did get in some trouble from local child protective
    services. I don't think they took the kids away, but she is being monitored and he did an update on things and I think her behavior has improved. I wonder if you went to if you could find the update info. While I felt for her frustration, I was hoping someone would be checking up on those kids and they did. KSM
  11. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    Janet, you didn't use hot sauce... CORY did!

    I used to suck my thumb... Mom painted this terrible tasting stuff on it... I would wash it off. But then she put chile sauce on my thumb, mild even. I HATED chile. Broke my habit overnight. It does not wash off so well.

    LOL now I love chile... Go figure.

    But again - natural consequence. I could avoid it.

    I've been known to wriggle in my seat when bored. And sword fight with pencils? No problem.

    in my opinion these aren't "parents".
  12. Liahona

    Liahona Guest

    I am Mormon. We believe that those people that hurt children will be punished so harshly in the next life it would've been better if the abuser hadn't been born. What she did is not part of our religion. Also she could've gone to her church leader and gotten help. The church would've paid for therapy and someone would've come to give her a break.
  13. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Knowing more of what went on, then no, what she did isnt right. But isnt it somewhere that advocates a quick dumping of a kid in a shower to shock them into reality again? I know you just referred to using it Susie. We never had to use it because my kids actually loved baths or showers so that would have been a reward.
  14. keista

    keista New Member

    Yes, and I even recommended a variation of this to a friend whose daughter was having night terrors. He would pinch her to wake her up. His wife no likey that. So I told him to use a cold compress - worked just as well.

    And like Susie said she did it too, and I probably could/should have done it with 'creepy'.

    This kid seemed to already be in reality. It's that mom that needed the shock back. I wonder if she ever had gotten in the shower to see what it's like?
  15. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    Cold shower = reality check BUT from everything I have read the kid didn't need one...
  16. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    Used to snap them out of an altered state is NOT using it as punishment. It is totally different. It is hard to describe the way Wiz was when we did that, but it was sort of a cross between hysteria and a psychotic state - and he was incredibly violent during it. I was bruised and bleeding after each time but I NEVER hit him or hurt him - I just needed to sort of snap him out of it because just waiting and trying to calm him made no impressions. He seemed incredibly terrified when he was in that state - and the cold water shocked him out of it. I never would have thought of it but after me describing it the pediatrician suggested it, knowing we already had appts booked with specialists and were trying to survive until they could help more.

    I have an aunt who used to throw her son into a cold shower when he was misbehaving. Not freezing, just household cold. She would not tell this child no - not ever, and nothing he did was really 'wrong' in her eyes unless he specifically did something she told him not to. But if he got upset and was crying about something he couldn't have she put him in the shower. Every parent who knew about it warned her not to. And she did reap the logical consequences of that action - he flat out refused to bath or even let a wet washcloth come near him for about six months. And he refused to go into the pool that summer. As she managed the pool for twenty yrs before she had kids and was still teaching swim lessons, having a child who threw a tantrum every time you got him near the pool was NOT easy to handle. What made her esp upset is that NO ONE gave her ANY sympathy about it because she caused it. He did get over it by the end of the summer and already swam like a fish so it didn't stunt him in any way. But cold showers as punishment are just stupid unless it is a consequence for either dawdling while the hot water runs out or refusing to wash yourself while you have hot water.
  17. svengandhi

    svengandhi Well-Known Member

    The girl who played Blair on Facts of Life wrote a book about her life. In it, she wrote that she hot sauced her kids when they misbehaved. I find it horrifying personally. Plus, my difficult child adds hot sauce to much of the food he eats, so it wouldn't even be much of a punishment. I can't even stand the smell of the stuff.
  18. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Yeah I dont think good ole texas pete would work for Cory. He can practically drink the stuff. Now maybe some of that Jabenero stuff might but I wont even buy it.

    Now Lindsay and her husband Jeremiah have some awesome disciplining techniques for Keyana and Cameron because they have decided that at 5 and almost 8 they are too old for physical punishment for most things. (I like this guy by the way!) They have to do physical work. Chores. Cleaning bathtubs, baseboards, washing dishes, sweeping the walk or driveway, wiping and washing the truck windows, stuff like that depending on what they have done.

    Remember he is Army. He can think up stuff. He is also really nice. Is it odd I like him?
  19. ThreeShadows

    ThreeShadows Quid me anxia?

    I tried to watch the video and had to stop. It broke my heart to hear the little boy's Russian accent as he was realizing what was about to happen. I used to get in the cold shower with daughter as she freaked out, I cuddled her and loved her. In the Summer I had to close her bedroom windows because I feared that neighbors would call CPS. There was no snapping her out of that state. I used a book called "Holding Time" which worked for the boys but never for her. She screamed for hours. After a while I decided that I needn't be in the shower with her. It didn't take long for her to stop yelling after that. she decided that she could control her fits.

    I know parents in Maine who put hot pepper on the tongues of their cursing children. Is this a country thing?

    These poor boys spent 3 years in an orphanage. God help them and their adoptive parents. They've endured enough turmoil.

    I love my Russian daughter. She is a very special human being. I hope these boys can find some security and peace. God bless them.
  20. keista

    keista New Member

    Might be. The few parents that told me they did the hot sauce thing, said they just dabbed a bit on the tongue - not a whole mouthful.