How do you handle defiance? Take things away?

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Hi Orcaa, I logged onto this thread because this is what I'm going through. I have no good answers. All I can say is that I do what I have to do and take a deep breath during the fallout. Because there is always fallout.
As my husband says, "Rules for you, but none for me."
You've gotten some good ideas and advice. Wish I could offer more than a soft shoulder.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
On the "tolerate other kids" front, I did this with difficult child 1's friends as far as I could. There were three friends, all of them socially inept in various ways. All four of them (I include difficult child 1 here) had a reputation for aggression and violence, the school had actually fostered the friendship by organising a boot camp for them all. Before that, difficult child 1 hung out with the good kids. After the boot camp, all the bad kids hung with difficult child 1 and the good kids were too scared to come near them. So I had to take the new friends on board and I didn't much like them to begin with.

Because we live in an isolated area, when friends came over we entertained them in our home. But when a couple of difficult child 1's friends got unpleasant with difficult child 3 (who wanted to hang with the big boys even though he was only four years old) I banned them from the house. They had said, "Go away or I'll kill you," and you do not say this to an autistic pre-schooler in his own home!
But I never banned the biggest of the boys, even though the school specifically rang me to warn me about the dangers of this boy being friends with difficult child 1. I had never had a problem with this boy and in fact I found him to be polite to me and pleasant. He was awkward with difficult child 3 of course, but he was not mean to him.

The boys respected my rules, however. There were a couple of times when the rules were tested - a neighbour had apparently offered difficult child 1 a TV he was throwing out, difficult child 1 arranged for his friends to follow him home (quite an inconvenience, they would have had two hours travel) in order to help him carry home the TV. They stopped at the threshold and did not come in because they knew they were banned. This was two years later, so I let them in and they behaved themselves.

Over the next 6 years I took the biggest boy especially under my wing. His mother is a lovely lady, but ineffectual as an advocate for her son. She did not realise how much support he needed. So I made sure this boy enrolled in college with difficult child 1, I drove them in, I walked them through the process, I took them both to the disabilities staff, I followed through on their studies and nagged them both. I know if I hadn't done this, the boy would not have finished that year in college. difficult child 1 might not have either.

Flash forward another few years and this biggest boy got married. Three years ago he was best man for difficult child 1's wedding (an ordeal for someone I know now to be Aspie). And a month ago it was his turn - and difficult child 1 was best man. Another groomsman was the very boy who had been so horrible to difficult child 3 all those years ago. He's still got a lot of problems, I think there is more than Asperger's going on though. But he's polite to me, has confided in me at times when he's had problems. I don't think he's violent any more, he had a stint in the army which I think worked that out of him. The army eventually realised he was totally unsuited and discharged him (honourably) after about three years.

But I knew that for various reasons, these boys had problems at home. Even difficult child 1's best man whose mother is a good person, had more problems than she could handle.

At the wedding, his bride and his mother-in-law both approached me and recruit me to the "let's keep helping him" team. I was flattered, and because he has been such a good support to difficult child 1, I am happy to do this.

Sometimes when you begin to do something merely to keep an eye on your own child and keep them safe, you end up helping others too.

Marg
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Ok, Orcaauntie...

Time for some "old mama" advice... looks like I'm even older than your Mom... and I've got two teenagers still in school.

At "our age", there's only two options - and if you have any "old-fashioned values" left in you, only one - so I'll do that option last.

1) Get "with the program". Learn to think like the other Moms. Figure out technology and how to make use of it. Go with the flow. (that was NOT me)

2) Make "home" the absolutely best place to be and "family" the absolutely best people to be with. Sounds counter-intuitive. You're dealing with behavior issues. So were we. BIG TIME. So... all of this "nice" stuff has to be done with NO STRINGS ATTACHED (other than logical consequences if absolutely necessary). We don't do fun stuff because the kids are being or have been good. We do the really, really fun stuff just because "that's what we do as a family". You'll have to find your own list... and what goes on that list depends on interests, talents and budget. We broke the bank... and will probably still be working 10 years after we're supposed to retire, but...

FUN STUFF:
Anything that at least TWO people in the family think is "high value" and at least one other "doesn't mind".
For us, that's: outdoors, pets, music, food, and "hands-on adult-level learning".
We have enough instruments to support a band - and only 3 of us play.
The dogs cost as much as music lessons do.
The food costs less - we're learning to make gourmet meals together... and husband loves every minute of eating ALL of it!

Its not about a jam-packed schedule. Kids need time for real life (i.e. homework, music or sports practice, etc.) AND down-time.
But there has to be enough going on at home that they WANT to be involved in, and WANT to include their friends in if possible.
You have to be the absolutely "neatest" home base - not "coolest", as you won't get there. "Neatest" as in, really different but really fun.
"Lets go over to kiddo's house and see if his mom will let you try the Tuba". A garage full of engine parts. A craft room with 8 different types of sewing machines. A home gym. Three boats, four life-jackets and 16 paddles. (hands-on adult-level activites...) You get the picture.

(yes we broke the bank. no we're not rich... 99.9% of this stuff was purchased VERY used but in good condition, and that doesn't spoil ANY of the fun - oh the stories I could tell!)

Don't copy MY list. Your family will have to find their own list... But the point is... fun, high-value, family-oriented activities re-build relationships - and teens NEED these relationships for at least the next 20 years.
While we're at it... gourmet breakfasts - sit-down all-hands-on-deck gourmet breakfasts are a great way to start the day. Guarantees everyone eats well to start the day off with, and good family bonding time besides.
 

orcaauntie

New Member
i'm with chaos above up there.

i think you should let your mom handle it how she sees fit. she shouldnt tolerate disrespect, but it sounds like she's got enough common sense to address the issue and handles it appropriately. (i too did NOT know the person gets a "reactivate" notice for facebook if you cancel it, ROFLMAO--thats pretty hilarous, and i doubt most parents would realize it either).
Yes, she is 12 and going through a lot of changes- that does explain a lot of what is going on. However, this does not excuse her incessant need of flipping on my Mom and calling her a C-word, B-word and tell her to "suck my imaginary d****"... because she "knows it hurts." THAT in my opinion is not normal for a child of her age.

I know my Mom does have much common sense and experience, I trust she can and will handle it one way or the other. Just to be clear- My mom is asking me for advice/help. In turn, I found this site for guidance. I am not giving it because I feel compelled to tell her how to handle the situation. She calls me at her breaking point, her wits end. She needs help. Between her medical issues, the issues with my sister (kids mom), she needs all the support she can get and I am what she's got for support. :) She appreciates the advice I am giving her, which much of it has come from all of you wonderful people. In fact, she has already began implementation of some limits and today was a REALLY good day for the family- at least partially because of some of the advice she has received from myself. Despite the brief spaz moment from my Niece where she broke her phone, it was peaceful and all were in bed by 9. Well, at least in their rooms :)

As for the Facebook thing- yeah, it kind of stunk. We thought we were sooooooooooo smart and showed her "who's boss". Oops. :)
 

orcaauntie

New Member
Sometimes when you begin to do something merely to keep an eye on your own child and keep them safe, you end up helping others too.
Such a great story, Marg. I am so happy that all turned out so positively. And thank you for the statement I quoted above- that is very true. The best friend of my Niece told me herself that she "has no one" and even her "own uncles want nothing to do with us" (meaning her Mom, sister and her). This made my heart ache. Unfortunately my Mom has so much on her plate that I do not think she has the energy to take this girl too far under her wing... although if she allows her to be at her home more often it could help the girl more than she realizes ever could be possible. :)
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
The facebook problem... if I'm not mistaken, FB has a separate set of steps that parents of minors can use - and yes, there is a way to shut it down without the re-enable message going to the kid... but you'd have to take that up with FB. I haven't actually had to do it. Just heard about it from other Moms.
 

orcaauntie

New Member
2) Make "home" the absolutely best place to be and "family" the absolutely best people to be with. Sounds counter-intuitive. You're dealing with behavior issues. So were we. BIG TIME. So... all of this "nice" stuff has to be done with NO STRINGS ATTACHED (other than logical consequences if absolutely necessary). We don't do fun stuff because the kids are being or have been good. We do the really, really fun stuff just because "that's what we do as a family". You'll have to find your own list... and what goes on that list depends on interests, talents and budget. We broke the bank... and will probably still be working 10 years after we're supposed to retire, but...
Well, I think we're trying. :) Mom told me today that when the kids were asked what one thing was that they'd change, my niece said that she'd want tv in her room. So, my mom is going to have that set up. It's DirecTV so it takes setup, installation, etc. If that is something that will truly make Niece happy, it's harmless. It may even make her want to stay home more, and get her off the computer. I know, it's TV- rot the brain.. but it is what it is :)
Now, they do not have many instruments. My niece has a flute that she plays in school band. Otherwise, they have video game consoles- which make them happy. I think Mom should focus on more board games or the like, to get them away from the electronics a little more. They bake, play with the dog (a great dane, which my niece loves to death. He's her "baby boy" :) )

She also wants a full membership to Toon Town, a game she likes. She currently uses a trial version. It is not cheap- around $100 for a year I believe. So my Mom is going to sit down with her and they will, together, devise a plan for her to earn the membership. Now, is this considered "with strings attached"?

And I also just want to be sure I understand- when you say logical consequences, are the ones I've mentioned such as restricting computer access and turning off the cell phone data plan what you would call logical consequences for her negative behavior? :) Thank you!
 

orcaauntie

New Member
The facebook problem... if I'm not mistaken, FB has a separate set of steps that parents of minors can use - and yes, there is a way to shut it down without the re-enable message going to the kid... but you'd have to take that up with FB. I haven't actually had to do it. Just heard about it from other Moms.
Hmm.. I do wonder about this because my niece throws it in our face that Facebook allows profiles when you are 13, which she will be in a week. Told her, "Sorry honey, but Facebook doesn't make the household rules. Meme and Grampy do." She always passes things off and sounds like she doesn't care all too much.. like no one can tell her what she can and can't do. FB says she can have one at 13, so she thinks she's entitled to it when she's 13. Not so, my dear! :)

I looked into FBs contact options and it's nearly impossible to contact FB itself. And the report feature does not have an option to report an underage profile. FB is annoying. :p
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Lets answer two questions at once.
There are TWO kids of activities going on at home.
1) high-value family-oriented bonding activities, and
2) everything else.

To tie consequences, etc. to the first category completely undermines the value of these activites. These are for building relationships, "positive points" that can't be taken away.

To tie logical conequences to "everything else" is normal living.

So... the ToonTown bit? Try and keep the "logical" on the positive side. For example, if she "earns" a dollar toward it for each day that she (just for argument here) makes her bed, puts away her clothes, and does one kitchen task without being asked... (this list has to be part of the negotiations with Niece... do not use MY list) then if these things are not done, nothing gets earned that day, but nothing gets taken away either. It doesn't work to use negative consequences. In this case, Niece can be shown that it is a real-world situation... you only get paid if your work is done. But you don't lose yesterday's pay if you don't do today's work... make sense?

The best type of negative consequences are the ones where the "parent" doesn't have to do any dishing out of consequences. Lose or break your cell phone... you don't have one until you earn enough to replace it. It wasn't taken away... the difficult child did something that caused the problem. Sure, difficult child will rant and rave and complain about how mean they are for not replacing her phone immediately. I mean, really - she can't live without a phone! But... it wasn't "taken away". SHE lost/damaged it... kick yourself, kid, and learn from it.

Now - back to the high-value family-oriented bonding activities.
TV, computer games, and other "individual pursuits" do not count.
Board games, baking... sure.
But I'm not seeing much else "family-oriented".
Hiking? Biking? Swimming?
Watching a particular type of movie together? (if it were a mutual interest, make it a goal to watch every Monty Python movie, or a historical fiction movie every week, or whatever they agree on) In this case, you make an evening out of it... popcorn, drinks, a scheduled "break", etc.
Sing in a choir?
Volunteer at the hospital?
What kinds of activities really make your Mom and Dad shine?

Additional point:
Oh, you mentioned.... they have a dog. Niece really likes the dog. They could think about enrolling Niece in a Junior Handlers class and see if she can make Doggie really shine. There's only one dog, so its not a family activity YET. If she can get Doggie trained to the "therapy dog" level, then she and her sister can put together a whole "three man" show (ok, 2 tweens and a dog) and go visit hospitals or nursing homes. Success in training an animal really does wonders for a kid's self-esteem. Because the intent is to build self-esteem, this can't be an "earned" thing, and can't be taken away as a consequence of anything except mis-handling the dog or consistently not doing the training. (see the "logical" to the consequence?)
 

KTMom91

Well-Known Member
I also paid Miss KT per job, even if I had to invent a job for her. I was so afraid she inherited her father's "uselessness" gene that I started this when she was very young. Her first paying job (at 5) was to gather up the newspapers and take them out to the bin. I read two papers a day, so every day, there was paper to be gathered. She earned 25 cents a day, which gave her a decent haul for the Friday snack bar at school.

Another logical consequence was that I refused to replace anything that was willfully destroyed. She had to work for the money - either at home, at Nana's, or Grandma's. When I asked her to pick up the toys from the yard, she threw them over the fence...her bike helmet included. I think she was 7. No helmet means no riding. She got on the phone and lined up some cleaning at my mom's and gardening at Grandma's. When she got her cell phone (at 12), we agreed that we would replace it once due to unforeseen circumstances. After that, she had to figure it out. And this ruling is why, about 7 years after the fact, she still has no bedroom door because she tore it off the hinges and threw it at me.

If your niece is interested in food and cooking, maybe taking a cooking class with your mom would be a good thing. There are several places around here where you go in and make a week's worth of dinners, then bring them home and freeze them for later in the week. And that could lead to trips to Farmer's Markets, learning how to be a "locavore," and different ways to be eco-friendly. Miss KT says this is a big thing now with the college kids.
 
M

mrsammler

Guest
"what do we do? Just let her do it?"

Whatever you do, don't do this--don't just let her get away with misbehavior. Doing that is the slippery slope down which a great many parents of difficult children slide into real and durable chaos. You MUST respond to rule-breaking, misbehavior, and overt disrespect with discipline and appropriate punishment. She will raise hell and try to send the message that any attempt at disciplining her will just make her worse--don't buy it. Take away the toys/privileges she likes and don't return them until you get compliance. As bad as it'll get as she rages in response to punishment, it'll be SO much worse if you give up on discipline.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
I respectfully disagree, mrsammler. It really does depend on the child, and for a lot of kids whose families have come here, it is BECAUSE the usual stuff that works for "normal" people, backfires badly here. It's a matter of finding the balance, and developing something consistent (and generally positive) that works.

For example, if you react with distress, anger or hurt every time your DIFFICULT child (not typical of 99% of the population) calls you a nasty name, you are actually teaching the child to continue to call you those names. But the name calling is generally not the primary problem. There is often frustration or anger underlying it, and if you can identify why and help them deal with it more appropriately (without necessarily reacting but also sending a message that dealing with it is better, name calling is not) then you still achieve the aim of stopping the disrespect, but also you end up working more directly on the cause.

orcaauntie, you said
Unfortunately my Mom has so much on her plate that I do not think she has the energy to take this girl too far under her wing... although if she allows her to be at her home more often it could help the girl more than she realizes ever could be possible.

Every little bit helps, often more than you realise. Merely seeing your mom's example could be enough to break through. Sometimes it's all we can do, and sometimes it's all that is needed.

And another thought - you're writing multiple replies which is okay with us, but could be making more work for you than you need. We can all see every reply, if you address different paragraphs to different people, for example, we'll work out who you're talking to!

Have you got your mother introduced to this site? If she joins here or even lurks here, she might find it really boosts the unity between you two, on how to cope with this girl. It works for me and my husband, as well as other family members on this site.

Marg
 

orcaauntie

New Member
Deleting facebook accounts for children under the age of 13...

Link - direct to Facebook site... http://www.facebook.com/help/?faq=157793540954833
Thank you. However, with her being 13 in less than a week now... eek. Tossed up about whether it's worth it. It may make her spiral if any progress has been made. I sent the link to Mom and told her it is her decision if she'd want to do this, but it must be done before she turns 13. Benefit is that all of the nasty names she called her will be gone, negative is she will be so angry that she's lost everything (pictures, friends list, etc) that any progress made will backfire.
Plus, when she's 13 she will just make a new one. :\

Every little bit helps, often more than you realise. Merely seeing your mom's example could be enough to break through. Sometimes it's all we can do, and sometimes it's all that is needed.

And another thought - you're writing multiple replies which is okay with us, but could be making more work for you than you need. We can all see every reply, if you address different paragraphs to different people, for example, we'll work out who you're talking to!

Have you got your mother introduced to this site? If she joins here or even lurks here, she might find it really boosts the unity between you two, on how to cope with this girl. It works for me and my husband, as well as other family members on this site.

Marg
Thanks, Marg- Here I am trying to post a reply to two posts in one reply. I hope it works. :) I agree with what you say about the friend. Mom I bet will understand this, too.
I have not introduced the site to my Mom. I will do so today however. I have sent her much of the information including links to Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) and ordered her the book you all suggested :) I bet it would help her to read the posts here and maybe even post some of her own :) She does have trouble with all three and all require different needs. She said yesterday that it's tough because it's like being pulled in three different directions and they all need different things. A bell inside my head went "ding, ding, ding" because I've seen someone else on here post the same type of statement so I know Mom's not alone!
 
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TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
We don't do fun stuff because the kids are being or have been good. We do the really, really fun stuff just because "that's what we do as a family".

Oh, I can't tell you how many times I have used that exact phrase. How I try and try to do this. But all I get from difficult child is "NO," or "I don't want to." Sometimes I do the activity like food, i.e. just put it all out and hope he walks by and gets interested. I feel like an idiot playing Monopoly by myself by you do what you have to do. ;)
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Terry, we found a simple computer game version of Monopoly, it was a lot easier to engage a kid in that. It also helped us avoid a lot of the arguments that Monopoly can cause when you play it as a board game, because the computer takes over as banker and dice roller.

I'm not suggesting you find our game; just that often computer versions of old favourites can work a lot better. Many of our difficult children are hung up on things being seen to be fair, and taking out at least part of the human element makes it easier. For example when I used to teach chess, I often set up a couple of beginner kids playing chess on computer because "illegal moves" needed to be taught in an obvious way, and the computer could be more vigilant than I could be, when I had a room full of kids all trying to learn at different levels. A kid would make a mistake, and the computer would simply be obstinate and refuse to move the piece to a wrong square. If the kids couldn't work it out I would be called over to sort it out and that gave me the opportunity I needed to explain why the move was illegal. "Pawns can't go backwards" or something similar.

Some years ago we found an Asterix board game on computer. It plays like a board game but is a lot more interactive. Most of the squares you land on, do something interesting or give you a puzzle. It is designed for up to four players and is not as much fun with only one person. It also gets you out of your chair for some of the games. And after playing for an hour, it suggests you take a break and go for a walk outside!

Orcaauntie, the three-way pull will happen with PCs too. Kids are different ages and/or developing at different rates and all have their wants and needs. Part of life is learning to accept that things aren't always perfect and you sometimes have to wait your turn, or let someone else have priority if their need is momentarily greater. Learning compassion for one another is also important but doesn't come naturally. But it is tiring, especially for older caregivers.

I remember when I had difficult child 1. I already had a baby, easy child was 20 months old when her brother was born. She was always a very self-assured child, only needed me when she wanted to be fed. Never cuddled. She was breastfed, but from a couple of months old as soon as she decided she was finished, she would push away from me and fight to be put on the floor.
Then her brother was born and he was a very cuddly baby (funny, for an Aspie). He would cling like a koala, it was a total opposite. And easy child noticed and I think began to wonder, "Maybe there's something in this." I would be feeding difficult child 1 and easy child would at that moment decide she wanted a cuddle. When you're breastfeeding one, having the other want to crawl into your lap is not welcomed. So I got her to use these times to sit next to me and I would try to manage to put my arm around her while the other arm held the baby at the breast. But if easy child wanted me to read a book at the same time, she had to hold it. My hands were full.

Another interesting thing happened - easy child wanted to try out all the baby toys and seats. She wanted to lie on the baby blanket on the floor and play with the toys on the hanging frame. She wanted to sit in the little chair and see what it felt like. So as far as I could, I let her try these things out. It seemed to give her a feel for how the world seemed from her baby brother's point of view. Once she had tried it, she decided it was more fun being the older sibling and able to run, play and climb. But until I let her try these things, she was whiny and demanding, feeling insecure because of the change in the family. Giving her a little space to explore the options made her realise that she was still who she was and she was still just as important to me, but sometimes a baby had to take priority in terms of needing to be dealt with immediately.

Kids need to learn that love is not linear. Love is more like fire - you can't really measure it, you can have multiple ignition points and each fire will burn differently but still warm you just as effectively if you look after it. You can take a burning log from one fireplace and start another fire, and have two fires which can be equally hot. The first fire won't suffer if you replace the log you removed with more fuel. The more you love, the more love you have to share around. But they don't all have to be loved in exactly the same way, because everyone is an individual and different.

Marg
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Terry - difficult child is 14. Its not very acceptable for male 14yos to be hangin out with mom. Dad... ok. Uncles and cousins are WAY higher value. Mom??? they get bullied for less than hangin out with Mom. So.. you're one down to start with. Obviously Monoploy isn't quite his thing. How can you get into HIS world? I think Marg is on the right track... find some form of computer activity that you both can be involved in - Wii? going to the Gym? swim? cooking some easy but show-off stuff (like... tacos. not that tough but other 14yos are impressed if you can pull it off... I mean, some adults are impressed too!) Where can you "meet in the middle"?

(me, IT tech-head... one thing that difficult child can hang out with me for is computer tips and training... 'cause he gets neat stuff to do and to show off how to do to his friends, but there's no backlash to learning tech from a tech even if its Mom...! the other is cooking which difficult child says is OK "because I need to know for when I leave home and/or go back-country camping")
 
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