husband is Wavering...

[DaisyFace]

Our TSP meeting is Friday...

I posted here earlier for some advice on how to prepare.

I told husband that I was going to bring all the paperwork that I already have (it's a huge file) plus I am going to add all the things we did to try and solve difficult child's issues in the past. I am also going to type up a bulleted summary of the current problems. I told him exactly what i was going to write.

husband was fine with it.

I told him that I was going to push for placement for difficult child. I asked him how he felt about that. husband agreed it would be in difficult child's best interest. He wanted placement, too.

I said "OK - so we're on the same page then?"

husband said "Yes"

So today - I had a meeting with the therapist. We discussed the upcoming TSP meeting. therapist said she is going to recommend placement - se doesn't feel there is anything more that can be done on an outpatient basis and difficult child really needs more supervision than we can provide at home.

OK - fine. Good. Everyone agrees.

I call husband to tell him about the meeting with therapist and her recommendation.

Well, now husband doesn't seem so sure...



Aaaarrrggghhh!!!

You know - he always manages to talk real tough when he is angry with difficult child....but then when we get in front of somebody who can help...he goes into this "Gotta protect Daddy's little girl" mode.

During one of difficult child's hospitalizations - husband and I wanted to talk to them about placement....but then when it came right down to it - husband said flat out that he was only OK with placement if it was very short-term....say two weeks. (Huh???) The woman told him that any placement would be at minimum a year - so husband said No way!

The when we spoke to a psychiatrist over the summer about how to arrange placement - husband left the room...didn't even want to be part of the discussion.

Now here we are - two days ago he says we're on the same page...

and now that everyone seems to be pushing for placement it's "What? There's nothing else we can do for difficult child? But I don't want to send her away..."

If he gets into that meeting and pulls that "O nothing long term..." garbage I'm just gonna be ready to strangle him!

 

[DammitJanet]

DF....do you think maybe you should just go to the meeting alone? There really is no need for both of you to be there. I always went to the meetings for Cory alone. Tony was around for family therapy at some points but a lot of times he worked out of town. Maybe you should just be the strong one here. It is hard for Dads with girls.

 

[AnnieO]

Oh, sweetie... been there done that... husband is on board till it looks like it's a given and then... Maybe not so much.

Hugs, hon.

 

[DaisyFace]

DF....do you think maybe you should just go to the meeting alone? There really is no need for both of you to be there. I always went to the meetings for Cory alone. Tony was around for family therapy at some points but a lot of times he worked out of town. Maybe you should just be the strong one here. It is hard for Dads with girls.

At this point? Honestly, I would like to - but husband specifically requested to be there (weeks ago when the meeting was being scheduled) and so the meeting was set up around husband's work schedule.

Maybe somebody could kidnap him...?

 

[DaisyFace]

Oh, sweetie... been there done that... husband is on board till it looks like it's a given and then... Maybe not so much.

Hugs, hon.

Yeah what's WITH that?

C'mon!!!!

 

[susiestar]

Is it time to have a blunt talk with husband about either supporting this or getting out of the way because this is the ONLY way to have even a small chance of actually helping difficult child? Or be even more blunt in that he either supports this or you will start thinking about separation and leaving difficult child with him so that you can save easy child from her abuse/thinking her behavior is okay/her influence? maybe not divorce, but definitely having 2 households, regardless of what that means to the budget?

Your husband somehow needs to either get in line with the solution or get out of the way, as it is he is making the problem worse because difficult child KNOWS that Daddy is NOT going to do ANY of what he says - period. So HE is a HUGE part of the problem, and it isn't just difficult child's future you are fighting for - it is your son's as well. does HE deserve the torture that she puts him through? I guaran-dang-tee you that she has done stuff to him that neither you nor husband has even a teensy clue of, and threatened much worse if he told on her!

Let husband know that he is LETTING easy child DOWN by waffling - not just "sticking up" for difficult child.

 

[barneysmom]

I've had experience with this. Lots.

I'm going to say something that may sound really sexist but actually I think it's a matter of wiring. I don't think many guys have what it takes to make this decision and really, fundamentally commit to it 100% and never waffle or make the woman feel like she's wrong.

They don't understand the tremendous amount of love, and the courage of love, that underpins a decision like this. They don't understand the sacrifice a woman will make to protect her child and the rest of her family -- to have a child removed from the family requires a tremendous sacrifice from everyone. And when the child goes, no one will feel the pain of the sacrifice like the woman. Even though she has been the primary decision-maker. And she'll probably be the comforter of those who remain in the home (including the grown-up, adult male husband), and of the one who goes away.

This is the fierce love of a woman. And the courage and determination.

in my opinion. Nothing against guys. They just don't understand this type of courage nor are they wired for it.

Jo

P.S. There is one exception -- Atticus Finch from "To Kill a Mockingbird." But he's fiction.

 

[timer lady]

DF, when it came to kt my husband could not attend mtgs when it came to out of home placement (Residential Treatment Center (RTC)). If it was wm it was another matter but kt was his little girl.

I think dad's just want things fixed with-o the details & when that can't happen they vacillate. I don't know what to tell you other than ask husband to "get sick" for the mtg if he can't stand the heat of placement. Neither of you want the possible chance for extensive treatment to slip thru the cracks over husband's last minute doubts.

Please let your husband know that this isn't unusal when it comes to placing our difficult children out of the home for treatment or otherwise. This decision can/will take a parent to their knees. It's humbling & courageous at the same time.

(((hugs))) to you & husband.

 

[Marguerite]

There is no magic bullet. But here there is a chance.

Two things to tell husband.

"You agreed. I went ahead because you agreed. I checked with you each step. You cannot change your mind now, without seeming to all of us, including difficult child, to be weak, pliable and not a leader."

"She needs this. If you refuse her this chance, you are throwing away your daughter. If this turns out to be a wrong decision for her, not needed, it will become obvious very, very quickly and of course she could then come home. They do not want kids in there who don't really need it after all."

And a third thing - "If you only agreed before because you were angry, then you are not capable of making sound decisions in a crisis. This is a crisis. I am going to make the sound decision."

Good luck. Be firm, stand your ground. Someone has to - he's all quicksand!

Marg

 

[pepperidge]

I have to say I made a similar decision about my son. It was truly gut wrenching. Made me appreciate his birthmother all the more. As difficult as it was, it was the single best thing I have ever done. My husband lagged me in making the decision but he ultimately stood firm. Hard yes. But tell him in a month he will think it is the best thing he has ever done. Doing what's right for your child and not what is right for you emotionally as a parent is what being a parent is all about.

 

[susiestar]

I honestly think my husband only went along when Wiz left our home because he was gone most of the day (left by 6 am and got home at 6:30 or later) and because by that time he had chosen to not deal with difficult child during his rages/meltdowns because all he did was get madder and madder and make things worse by saying something like "grounded for a month" and then in two days he was over it and couldn't remember why difficult child was grounded or why I felt we had to stick to a month for something he felt was "minor" or something he didn't see because he went into another room while I kept Wiz from attacking Jess and got attacked myself.

In fact a year after I made Wiz leave our home my husband told me he didn't understand why I got so upset that day. After all it was "only" a headbutt that Wiz did to me = and I "egged him on" by insisting he write one sentence about what he learned in each class each day if he didn't have homework in that class. I "demanded too much" from him and 'broke up our home', leaving us "open to your mom's every criticism".

I was floored. The headbutt was vicious, and pushed me back into the bar, leaving a head shaped bruise on my chest that went down to my ribs, and an even worse bruise along my back, wrenched my back and neck (as I wastrying to baby my neck to put off disc surgery, which Wiz knew about and admitted he figured this into how he hit me in order to do as much damage as possible.) I wanted Residential Treatment Center (RTC) but we needed the judge to order it. the judge was trying to make this drag on until I forgot and solved it myself, and my parents believe that you never break up family no matter what they do, so they asked for Wiz to live with them. It worked, and if he had come back here one of us would be dead now. He would have tried to kill me or Jess and I would have tried to kill him to save us - if he had killed me he would have gone after Jess and then killed himself. It was pretty clear in some of the writings I found that he was planning this because I was "so hard on him about school" with the demand that he write 1 fimpin' sentence about each class each school day. Cause a parent that loved him wouldn't have cared. NOW he can admit he was way off base.

At the time it happened, husband came home after they had Wiz in cuffs in the back of the car. They tried to get him to "talk me down" and get me to agree that Wiz could come back in. To his credit husband told them no - he later said he knew I would tell him he could leave with Wiz or stay without him and he didn't know where they would go. he also felt that having Wiz stay here was dangerous to Jess and I. I have NO doubt that if we did not have a daughter then husband would NOT NOT NOT have backed me up at the time. It was her terror that was a big part of his going along with me.

Dads really do NOT understand this. I think that Jo is not sexist, but right. Moms and Dads are wired differently and have very different bonds with their kids. There is no shame for husband to stay home "sick" from the meeting. i do think there is shame for him to stop this, to waffle at this point in front of anyone but you. Expressing his feelings to you is one thing, but letting difficult child or ANY of the people involved in this meeting see it is just throwing away BOTH of his kids, his entire family pretty much. Beccause as hard as this is, it is what will save your kids - difficult child with the intense help and ds with keeping him separate and safe from difficult child.

I hope he doesn't manage to stop this. I know this is terribly hard for you. (((((hugs)))))

 

[svengandhi]

We haven't had to deal with placements other than considering sped/alternative schools, but H was such a problem. Our oldest was diagnosis'ed with mild AS in grade 8 (changed from ADD inattentive/possible NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) later discounted as he has excellent scores on executive functioning). I wanted to put him in a sped HS that had a program for gifted Aspies. H fought me so hard throughout son's freshman year. Son had 2 friends that whole year. One is probably Aspie, very high-functioning and is at an Ivy now, the other also very bright but very troubled, died last year of a drug overdose. Anyway, after my son threatened to kill himself, H agreed to switch him. Shortly after that, H convinced a friend of ours to send her son there and, of course, it was all HIS idea to send our son there in the first place.

With difficult child, we looked at a sped middle school which I found. I wasn't serious about sending difficult child there because the academics would not have challenged him, but H was violently opposed to it. We didn't send him there but again it was H who pulled the plug on the idea because HE decided that forcing the regular school to put difficult child in honors and accelerated classes would be better and, again, that was my idea.

Same thing with sending dyslexic easy child out of district for middle school and bringing him back for HS, both were HIS ideas after he fought me to heck and back against first sending him and then bringing him back.

I even had this battle with him over college for my daughter. He only wanted to allow her to apply to schools that he could drive to in under 2 hours (primarily, his alma mater, which is an excellent school but doesn't have an education department and that's what she's majoring in). She's a 6 hour drive away and to hear him tell it, he picked the school and encouraged her to go there over my objections.

I guess the key to the placement with H's like these is to let them think that they've come up with the solution.

Good luck.

 

[DammitJanet]

Im very lucky that Tony backed me up in every thing we attempted with Cory. I had a waffling moment once or twice which wasnt good. Sometimes it is just so danged hard to decide if the place you are sending your kid is going to be good. I have had to walk away and pray only to have my fears confirmed.

This is the hardest thing we have to do. There just are no manuals to how to handle these things.

 

[Bunny]

I think that my husband would be that same way. At one point, I was ready to send him to an Residential Treatment Center (RTC). I had even talked to the therapist about it. husband was adamently against it. He does not want to send "his child" away. I understand how he feels because sending my son away was not what I truly wanted, but we needed peace in the house for the rest of the family, especially for easy child. husband didn't even want me to put difficult child on medications, but I really gave him no choice. Ultimately, we put him on Risperdal and that has seemed to help him. I think that if it really came down to the decision of would we or wouldn't we send difficult child away husband and I would be on opposite sides of the fence.

If you can convice husband not to go to the meeting because you are concerned about him changing his mind, I would do that. If he insists that he wants to go, and I commend him for wanting to be involved and not saying that it's you problem to deal with, them make it very clear to him that this was what he agreed to. You understand that it's very hard to send your child away, but it's what is best for her. Keeping her home would be selfish because you can not help her any more. There is nothing else that you can do for her. She needs to be someplace that can give her what you can not.

Pam

 

[DaisyFace]

Thank you all--

"This is the fierce love of a woman. And the courage and determination." - This statement just really struck my heart....something to remember during tough times.

I read the responses before heading to bed last night...

And I resolved that I would give husband an "out" so that he wouldn't have to attend the meeting. As we were getting reading for bed...we began speaking about how stressful this whole situation is - and I figured that was my segue. I told him that he didn't have to attend the meeting if it was going to be too hard for him with all his other stresses right now...

He responded "I HAVE to go to the meeting. I need to make sure that they're not talking about sending difficult child away or locking her up somewhere."

???? - So, now not only was he against placement...he was specifically attending the meeting to make sure it didn't happen! I said "But you know that we are going to be talking about placement!"

"But you KNOW I don't want to send her away. I don't want placement. I need to make sure that that is saved as the absolute last, last, LAST resort." he said.

So now I was getting really upset and I tried to ask him what alternatives he had in mind? I mean, if we're not already at the "last, last, last resort" I don't know what's next! I told him that our window for this kind of treatment is rapidly closing. He needed to think about everyone's best interests long-term. I told him we needed to be at least somewhat together on this - we had to go into the meeting knowing our game plan.

Well, the phrase "game plan" set him off. This was a whispered conversation so that difficult child would not overhear - but husband kind of raised his voice at this point...accusing me of "playing games" when this was NOT a game. So i asked him what he wanted to do?

He replied "I want to go to the meeting...hear what everybody has to say...and then...you know....think about it."

"But this is the meeting to MAKE the plan!" I said. "We have to have some idea of what we want!"

"Well, I don't KNOW what I want." OK--so that's honest. I tried a couple more arguments and then I asked him

"OK - so coming out of this meeting....what would be your absolute worst-case scenario?"

His answer? "Placement. Having difficult child out of our home."

ARRGGHHH!!!!

I told him that MY worst-case scenario was to do nothing...and keep on going the way we are. I also told him that Residential Treatment Center (RTC) was the most expensive thing on the table right now, and if he was willing to accept anything less - he would probably get it because they are going to be looking for less-expensive alternatives. So what did he think was going to work?

Well, we went to bed feeling upset and not really resolving anything. I felt like if husband was going to go to the meeting and stubbornly refuse placement - then HE could be the one to participate in therapy from now on. HE could be the one to attend all the therapist, psychiatrist etc appointments and HE could be the one to switch his life all around to make sure difficult child gets to her weekly "mentor session" or whatever the heck half-axxed "treatment option" he would agree to...

This morning, husband seemed a little more resolved. He said he would CONSIDER placement if it was the only thing that would help difficult child - but he would refuse to sign anything until he had thoroughly checked it out and was satisfied...

I don't know how he is going to feel later today, or tomorrow....or during the meeting.

This just stinks...

 

[DDD]

I'm sorry. Hoping that he has a "light bulb moment" pronto. Hugs. DDD

 

[susiestar]

I am so sorry. I do think that making him be responsible for handling ALL of the school issues, doctor appts, psychiatrist appts, deal with homework, etc... is an EXCELLENT strategy. Clearly having YOU do all of that has NOT worked to help her, so maybe having HIM do it will be the "magic bullet" he is looking for. Or maybe he should get an apartment to live in with her - NOT because you want a divorce or separation, but because she clearly is NOT thriving in a home environment and is NOT helping ds to thrive. husband and I thought about it, esp when he was refusing to think about placement or any other options (not that we really had any choices because no one but us and our therapist really cared what we did with him). It was the danger to Jessie and having to share our room/bed with her on many many nights because she was scared or in danger from Wiz.

This is harsh and maybe mean, but would you consider some ex-lax cookies for husband on the morning of the meeting? A special smoothie with lots of prune juice or something? Just enough to keep him home from the meeting? I guess he could still stop it after you agree to it, and that would be worse because then they would say "well,we offered it and you didn't take it so you are on your own", but there has GOT to be SOME WAY to get through to him that this is just NOT GOOD FOR difficult child!

Has he really thought about what her life at age 18 will be? Does he truly think she will change on her own by then? If she refuses to go to college or work, and you want to kick her out, would he refuse to allow that? Cause it sure looks like that is the road she is headed for, likely with drug use included.

Given her looking for sex with strangers on the internet, has he thought about what will happen when she is 16 and can legally consent? Or 17 and in most states they won't prosecute a guy for statutory rape if the girl is 17 even if the law says 18, esp if the girl initiated things? Is HE ready to supervise her during all of this, along with the meetings, appointments, driving around, etc...? Have the 2 of you really talked about what her future is going to be like if things continue the way they are now? What is HIS view of her future at this point if things don't change? does he know what YOU and the therapist/psychiatrist see?

Maybe discussing that, and then letting him know that if he doesn't go along with placement if it is offered with funding then he has to change his entire life to take over her care, feeding and appointments as well as her supervision after school because you just cannot cope anymore esp as you are well aware that she needs FAR more intense help than she can get while living in a home and your son needs FAR more peace and far less gfgness in his life.

Also, has your husband really looked at what this does to ds? Stress will make his arthritis much worse, so will the torture that difficult child puts him through. Is this what he wants ds to think that HE is supposed to do when he is a teen? Sometimes a close look at the harsh realities that the sibs of difficult children endure can be a wakeup call for parents too.

These are just ideas. whatever you do you have my full support. I know you will try to get him to see that she NEEDs help and isn't getting it at home because she doesn't have to. I really DO think he needs to take on the responsibility of her appts, esp with psychiatrist, therapist and to take over the calls from school. NOT just because you need a break, but because I have a feeling he is hiding from the reality that he will have to see if he has to deal wwith all of these things. You will still have to meet him at the therapist and psychiatrist to make sure he doesn't tell them everything is rosy and wonderful, but it would do HIM a world of good to see the reality of all of her treatment and the way it isn't helping her because she won't let it.

Showing HIM the list of all you have tried that hasn't helped might be more useful than showing it to the others at the meeting - an eye opener? Just a thought, esp as he didn't really want you to take all of that stuff to the meeting. Marg also had good points about him handling a crisis and not following through if you read back through a couple of her posts.

I am so sorry. Why is it we have to fight our spouses as much as our kids sometimes?

((((((((((hugs))))))))))

 

[busywend]

If she had cancer and the doctor recommended chemo, would he go against that recommendation?

I agree with him handling everything related to difficult child if she is not placed. He really needs to see just how difficult it is.

 

[DammitJanet]

Lordy lordy.

He really has no idea what the worst case could be. The worst thing could be is being shut out, no services offered and your dtr doing exactly what she is doing and her ending up a statistic who falls through the holes. Pregnant, drug addicted, homeless. It can happen and it does happen. Does he want to raise her kids in a year or two? Does he want to find out that she has met up with some lunatic online and managed to slip out of your grasp long enough to runaway and be the next segment on Nancy Grace?

Tell him this. I sent Cory away several times...many times actually and Cory doesnt hate me for it. In fact, he knows that we did it because he was out of control. He has said many times that he knows we did what we did because we loved him and that it would have been easier on us to just let him run wild like some of his friends parents did but no, we did the hard things, we tried to make him behave and he isnt a bit mad at us for that. Heck, he isnt mad that I had him arrested!

So while your dtr may be a bit irate right now, in time she will know that what you are doing is in her best interest and done out of love for her.

 

[Marguerite]

Worst case scenario - pregnant, drug-addicted, working as a street hooker to pay her pimp/pusher, getting beaten up by clients and giving birth to a drug-addicted, HIV-positive baby that YOU will have to try to rescue. And he has to face his own role in this. But he won't. Clearly he has got blaming others down to a fine art.

Attacking you and twisting words, instead of working with you to find a solution, is very childish, is bad tactics and is not helping your daughter. It's classic deflection tactic - "If I can attack when I feel threatened, maybe she won't notice I'm not as confident as I want her to think. And above all, I must not give way, even if I don't really know anything about this. I still have to always be right or I am not a man."

I really HATE arguments like that one. Hugs, honey.

Marg