I am new here, and at my wits end with 16 year old NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) daughter

[lisa3girls]

she is exhausting....she takes more energy than my younger two daughters (11 and 10) combined. We have given her EVERYTHING and EVERY opportunity from exchange programs to France, to a horse and horse showing, teaching her to drive, hiring a lawyer to get her the 504 plan she needs....and she is a beast. She is defiant, angry, mean, fresh and just miserable to be around and to talk to.

I don't even know what to do anymore...I was so angry at her this morning, that I could have opened the car door and shoved her out. God help me.

 

[gcvmom]

Hello, and welcome!

I can hear the frustration in your words -- it's completely understandable.

Does your daughter have any other issues besides the non-verbal learning disorder? Is she taking any medications currently? Does she see a mental health care provider of any type?

I can tell you that whenever defiance, anger, violence, destructiveness, etc. reared its ugly head in our house, it usually meant the person was struggling with depression or some other mix of mood problem. That may or may not be the case with you, but if your daughter hasn't been evaluated by a pediatric psychiatrist, neuropsychologist or the like, you might consider having some tests done to further investigate the source of her challenging behaviors.

 

[lisa3girls]

Hello, and welcome!

I can hear the frustration in your words -- it's completely understandable.

Does your daughter have any other issues besides the non-verbal learning disorder? Is she taking any medications currently? Does she see a mental health care provider of any type?

I can tell you that whenever defiance, anger, violence, destructiveness, etc. reared its ugly head in our house, it usually meant the person was struggling with depression or some other mix of mood problem. That may or may not be the case with you, but if your daughter hasn't been evaluated by a pediatric psychiatrist, neuropsychologist or the like, you might consider having some tests done to further investigate the source of her challenging behaviors.

No, she hasn't lately-- only at the beginning of high school for her educational testing. I do think her lack of empathy is biting her at school too (with her friends) and her inability (or unwillingness) to filter her words. Counseling (appropriate) seems really hard to come by.

 

[lisa3girls]

Hello, and welcome!

I can hear the frustration in your words -- it's completely understandable.

Does your daughter have any other issues besides the non-verbal learning disorder? Is she taking any medications currently? Does she see a mental health care provider of any type?

I can tell you that whenever defiance, anger, violence, destructiveness, etc. reared its ugly head in our house, it usually meant the person was struggling with depression or some other mix of mood problem. That may or may not be the case with you, but if your daughter hasn't been evaluated by a pediatric psychiatrist, neuropsychologist or the like, you might consider having some tests done to further investigate the source of her challenging behaviors.

No, she went to a counselor last year, and it didn't work at all...she hated him (and so did I). I don't think he understood the learning disability at all. I have another call into her pediatrician to try again to get a more appropriate referral.

 

[nvts]

Hi! Welcome to the crowd! NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) is a pain in the pants! We're checking into it now with difficult child 1 (if you remember what testing they did and which entity did it - psychiatric, school, etc. or who delivered a diagnosis, let me know, because everyone I come across doesn't know who would diagnosis!). I thing a full neuropsychologist would do a world of good. If there are social skills issues, she could have aspergers (girls often present differently than boys) or many other issues. Worth looking into!

You may want to read t he explosive child, by Ross Greene, very intelegent person and it's a quick and comfortable read (not all technical jargon!).

Welcome to the group!

Beth

 

[lisa3girls]

Thanks Beth...I am sorry to hear you too are dealing with these issues. Things have only gotten worse as she got older unfortunately and on top of that my husband and I vehemently disagree on how to handle her constant transgressions. She was evaluated by a pediatric educational neuropsychologist- at age 8 and again at age 13-- we still fight with school to get her accomodations and such. I cannot believe how HARD it is to bring her up.

 

[Marguerite]

Ah. found you. I knew you would be somewhere here...

At the moment you and she are clashing hard. Part of that is typical teen but it sounds like a big part of that is whatever is wrong with her. You are trying to parent her the best ay you know how, and it is backfiring. So - insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Can you give us some examples where you and your husband disagree? He might be on to something. Or he might be wrong and you might be on to something.

Whatever it is - things have to change.

Read "The Explosive Child", it might help you let go of some of the things you are fighting about, and give you a different way to get what you want from her. Also, get your husband to lurk here or post here. Mine does, it has really helped us. Of course I have to be careful to not 'bag him out' but we tend to work well as a team anyway. However, since he began lurking here, almost as soon as I began posting here, we have been fr more on the same page.

it's funny - when we talk together, he and I, you would think it would be the best form of effective communication. But with kids interrupting, chores to be done, little things getting in the way - it wasn't as effective communication for us, as reading posts. I think it's because when you write a post, you are condensing your thoughts into one package. it's easier then for someone to take it all on board in one lump, than in a few sentences here or there. Often he's come home and said, "About that post of yours today, I didn't realise you felt that way. Or sometimes he might add something to a thread (in his own name - Marg's Man) and make a point I hadn't thought of.

We still don't always agree, but that's OK too. We need to be able to consider all possibilities and sometimes that needs dissent. It's healthy.

If you're concerned that your daughter will 'age out' of help on this site, go over to Parent Emeritus. Mind you, most of my kids are adults but I still post in General.

Anyway, welcome. Glad you found us.

Marg

 

[lisa3girls]

Thanks, I will take any help I can get! She does a lot of defiant type things-- like buying the M rated video game and then rather than admit she was wrong and being at least a little bit contrite about it she lashes out saying she doesn't HAVE to do what we say, she NEEDS to know why (and no matter what I said she'd disagree)-- she just doesn't respect our boundaries or rules-- like don't eat in your room (and she still does, AND leaves the dirty spoons and bowls and THEN lies about it when you can plainly see-- I mean I found 12 dirty spoons in there).

For me, I take away the game, she loses the money....but for him, the accumulation of what he considers bad attitude and disrespect means we should sell her horse or something huge like that since she doesn't appreciate in anyway.

It is really continuous disrespect to follow the few rules we have for her.

 

[Marguerite]

Is there a chance she's got Asperger's? because she sure sounds familiar to me!

With the video, if she is legally old enough to watch it, I would let this one go but make rules - she MUST ensure her younger sisters do not get to watch it. She is olde enough to enjoy the freedoms of someone her age, but along with those freedoms come responsibilities. It is AGAINST THE LAW to make such stuff available to under-age kids. OK it doesn't matter tat the girls could watch the same videos at a friend's place. That is the legal responsiblity of the friends' family, not yours. So your older daughter should be able to watch her video, but not if her sisters are in the room. Any breach in that rule, and the video must leave the house.

We had the same rule for our kids - difficult child 1 wanted M-rated computer games when he was old enough, but was told he could only play them when difficult child 3 was out of earshot and out of the room. Failure to comply means parents are legally justified in imposing a ban, until the 'mature person' can demonstrate sufficient maturity and responsibility to follow through.

it's the law. It's not you being mean. You're just obeying the law and requiring her to do so.

The eldest is always a problem - they're the trailblazer, the one who is first to insist on adult freedoms. It is the beginning of the need for consistency across the family, you make your rules with your eldest. So think carefully and make rules you can enforce, and rules which are reasonable and natural, with natural consequences rather than parental punishments.

Eating in her room - the natural consequences here would be an ant plague. It is her responsibility to ensure no food scraps remain in her room. My girls broke tis rule, bought bulk jellybeans and thought they had them in a sufficiently ant-proof container. it was not. Natural consequences - I made them clean the ants out of their room.

The lying about it - please read the thread on Asperger's and lying. It will save me repeating myself!

Again - the type of lie you describe is screaming "Asperger's!" at me...

Marg

 

[lisa3girls]

Aspies and NLD are very very similar--- some neuropsychs even believe that NLD is the next step up from Aspie on the spectrum. I agree on the game, and will probably give it back, but she bought it after explicitly being told not to so it got me really angry (again do what I want even though mom says no). You would really let ants get in your house?? YUCK. So you would agree that things like selling the horse is a bit over the top???

Alot of it is not so much what she does, but the combative attitude when caught-- this is where I fail miserably and make a bad situation worse. And she tends to deteriorate quickly -- this morning I was told that all her friends think I am a b***-- and she doesn't even LIKE me. (She sure does like my checkbook though, huh?)

 

[Marguerite]

Re the combative attitude - read the book. It shows you a different way of handling things that avoids the combat and puts more responsibility back onto the child.

As for the ants - I didn't let them in. I didn't know about the jellybeans. The ants found their way in (we live in wilderness) and the natural consequences were, an ant plague plus ruined jellybeans. Can't eat jellybean remains when they taste of formic acid!

I know how to get rid of ant plagues. It's tedious, but it can be done. The most important thing is to deny them food and water. We had to stop leaving glass of water beside the bed, and go to bottles of water with tight-fitting lids.

I missed the bit about selling the horse - I wouldn't do that, unless your reasons relate to the horse in some way. For example, if part of the deal was, she has to look after the horse and she is not. In which case - sell the horse. But don't sell the horse because she lied or cheated about a game or movie.

Consequences need to be connected. For example, my girls' room was messy. I might fold the washing, but the girls did not put it away properly. The day might come where they would want to wear a favourite dress, only to find it crumpled on the floor of their room. Natural consequences, which THEY have to resolve. They then have to iron their own dress and wear it knowing it smells of being trampled for weeks.

NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) vs Asperger's - I think opinions vary from place to place. I do know girls are very difficult to diagnose with Asperger's because they present differently. While I am giving you reading assignments (!) look up Tony Attwood and read what he says about Asperger's, especially in girls.

Meanwhile - get the book. I know, I'm nagging. You will understand why.

If you want a quick preview, Early Childhood forum has a sticky on adapting Explosive Child for younger children.

Marg

 

[lisa3girls]

Thanks- many things (like getting an IEP) would have been much easier with an Aspie diagnosis for sure! I will get the book, I swear.

 

[PatriotsGirl]

Hugs as I completely understand where you are!! Exhausting is exactly how I describe my child and she has ALWAYS been exhausting. When my difficult child is not on her medications, she is an explosive, mean, hateful beast. Always doing what I tell her not to and not doing what I told her to. I think that is truly part of the ODD. She is always combative and HAS to have the last word, which is why her mouth keeps going long after it should have stopped. When she is confronted with something she flips out and is very angry and defensive - actually more combative than defensive. It is mind boggling and sooo frustrating because when she flips out I literally want to punch her in the face.
On medications - different child. More typical teen than difficult child. The only issue I am having now is that she MUST find a job. She doesn't do anything else - time to go to work....

 

[Frazzledmom]

Hi and welcome, every family has to find their limits. I know for us we let a lot of the language slide. A therapist we went to once told us it was just verbal garbage and for our son, I think he was right, so 90% of the time I don't say anything and just walk away. Doesn't mean I'm not seething inside though. I just tend to feel like I have other battles to fight and honestly, my mouth isn't so great half the time either. Good luck! (P.S. I also think that selling the horse would be a bit over the top. The punishment really should fit the crime and for me, I hate to take away a passion because sometimes it's the only thing that keeps them going.)

 

[lisa3girls]

When she is confronted with something she flips out and is very angry and defensive - actually more combative than defensive. It is mind boggling and sooo frustrating because when she flips out I literally want to punch her in the face.
....

I am so sorry...but on the other hand that others have these feelings too--- OMG

 

[lisa3girls]

When she is confronted with something she flips out and is very angry and defensive - actually more combative than defensive. It is mind boggling and sooo frustrating because when she flips out I literally want to punch her in the face.
....

I am so sorry...but on the other hand that others have these feelings too--- OMG

 

[flutterby]

My NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) daughter was like this until...I don't even remember when. She was always so angry at me. In her mind, I was at the root of all of her problems and if the therapist could just fix me then she would be fine.

For the most part, I didn't engage. I would answer/respond to her one time and when she continued to go on and on and on about it, I didn't engage except at times to say that I already answered that. I also held the mirror up to her. She really didn't like that, but she did think about it later.

Therapy has been huge. It has taken a long time to find the right fit with a therapist. And it took a long time (over a year) with this therapist before she got over the "therapist needs to fix me and nana and her brother and then I will be ok" line of thought. However, even though she was still thinking that way the way she responded to us improved.

My daughter also has depression and severe anxiety to go along with NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD).

For my daughter, it seems she doesn't have any empathy. However, I've learned that she has an immense capacity for empathy, she just doesn't know how to show it appropriately.

Beth, a neuropsychologist diagnosed my difficult child.

 

[flutterby]

One other thing, my daughter explained recently that a lot of her frustration came/comes from not understanding what's going on around her. Things we take for granted really make no sense to these kids. One example, I told my daughter we would "play it by ear". She had no idea what that meant. (And after explaining these and other expressions we use, they really do seem silly.)

Another...she really likes NCIS and Bones, but I have to pause the show often to explain to her what's going on. She becomes totally lost. Often at the end, she'll say she didn't get it at all. There are a lot of things that are implied that she doesn't catch, a lot of expressions used that she doesn't understand, etc.

I've learned from these things how I really have to break things down for her. These kids are very deceiving because they compensate so well, and are usually very intelligent, so it's easy to forget that they just don't take information in the way we do.