I can't do this anymore...I need help

[Palomina]

I am the mother of 3 children... 2 difficult child boys, ages 9 and 10, and a 5 year old easy child. Not a day goes by that I don't have some type of trial with the boys, no matter what I try. I am at my wit's end, and have NO CLUE what else to try, what else to do... I know that I should pick my battles, but the ones I feel are worth fighting over are health and hygiene issues... as well as safety.

My boys seem to be allergic to the shower... I "remind" them every night that they need to take showers... Most of the time they ignore me. I get a little more persistant, and soon it blows up into a tantrum and I end up with holes in the walls. Their feet stink, their armpits stink, their hair gets greasy, and THEY DON'T CARE.

Safety: I need to know where they are... In this day and age, it is stupid to just let them run around the town without having some sort of curfew, whether it be "come home at dark" or "supper is at 6:30, or "you need to come home right after school so we can plan our night..." They are supposed to come home after school, drop off their backpacks and make sure their chores are done, and then they can go out and play if they aren't on punishment. It doesn't happen. There is a city-wide siren that sounds at 6pm every night. I tried telling them to come home as soon as they hear it... Their response "I didn't hear it." YEAH RIGHT. They don't come home, they don't care if we have plans or appointments or supper or company coming... I go look for them, and they hide, coming home whenever they darn well please.

Health: Regular meals are important... I don't, however, run a restaurant. I expect them to be home for supper. Doesn't happen. Then they go to school and say that I refuse to feed them... Not the case, but I do expect that either they eat what I cook or they make something by themselves... I am not cooking 5 meals for 5 people. Sleep is also high on my list of priorities. Bedtime is 8:30. Has been for years. Most nights, they are still up at 1 or 2 in the morning, and are HORRIBLE in the morning, but I don't give in and let them stay home... They chose to stay up and disobey me, they can be tired in school... #2 son's teacher jumped on me about him falling asleep one day in school... Imagine her surprise when I told her it was because he had been up until 4 that morning... She said that I had to make him go to bed earlier........ REALLY? Cuz I am pretty sure I "allowed" him to stay up that late. I told her to describe for me the steps I would need to take in order to force a 9 year old to go to sleep... She didn't know what to say. "tell him it is bedtime." My response: I DO. Every night at 8:30. NEVER HAPPENS, They don't care.

They don't care, they have no respect, they have no boundaries, and though they are my children and I will always love them, I sure don't like them very much sometimes. Is that wrong? Am I a horrible mother?

Not a day goes by that I am not told that I am hated, they flat out refuse to listen and do ANYTHING to help anyone out. They are the most selfish children I have ever met, and I have NO CLUE what I did wrong... or how to fix it. I called Social services to see if maybe they could help me out... they never returned my call after taking my intake information. I called again. Still nothing. I called again...then I got a letter from my oldest son's therapist's office, where they did his ADHD diagnosis...Social services wanted permission to access his medical records. Ummm, I asked you to call me 3 times so that I could describe my life to you, and you refused to call me back, and now you want me to sign a release for you? Probably not going to happen.

Help me! I have no clue where to go or what to do, and I am tired of fighting and crying and feeling like a failure. I am tired of my kids hating me, and I hate the fact that I dread the weekend because I know it is going to be nothing but a war at home. My second son threatens to kill us all... and I am afraid of BOTH of them because it is like they have NO conscience... Most of my energy goes to protecting my daughter from the boys. I don't know where to turn.

 

[BusynMember]

Hi there, hon. Take a deep breath. None of this is your fault. You have a couple of boys who are wired differently than other kids so they are harder to parent and normal parenting methods are not working. This is most definitely NOT your fault and don't let anyone tell you that it is. It's early and others will come along to help. I do have a few questions that will help us help you. You may want to do a signature like I did below. That gives us an overview of your family so that we can remember each time you post.

1/My very first question that i thought of is are these your biological sons or were they adopted? If they are biological children, were they involved in any early chaos that was beyond your doing such as a divorce where there was maybe some changing in custody or a lot of different caregivers? Is their father living with you? Is he helpful? Early chaos can impact a child later in life. Often there are issues due to weak attachments, which again is not your fault.

2/Are there any psychiatric problems or substance abuse on either side of their genetic family trees? Any history of being mean to animals or setting fires or peeing/pooping where or when they shouldn't? (Again these issues are not your fault...they are just questions).

3/How was their early development: Did they cuddle, stare at you, smile, reach all their milestones on time, speak on time? Any sensitivities such as noise, textures, foods, a lot of people? How do they interact with their same age peers? Do they have a lot of friends? Does either one have any odd quirks or obsessive interests?

4/Has either ever been evaluated? I like neuropsychs. How do they do academically? CAn both transition well from one activity to another?

I am thinking both could use a fresh evaluation by a neuropsychologist. The older they get, the easier it is to pinpoint what is going on and neuropsychs do intensive testing (6-10 hours) and test in all areas of function.

Be patient. Weekenkds can be slow, but people WILL check in and we do care. A great bunch of people are here for you. by the way, you are a GOOD mother with challenging children. Your thoughts "I love them but don't always like them" are normal in your circumstances. You are reaching out for help which shows how much you do love them.

 

[Malika]

Hello and welcome, Palomina.
I was intrigued by something... you refer to cooking for 5 people - so presumably you also have a husband or partner with you? Yet you do not mention him at all. Where does he stand on all this and what is his relationship with the boys?
I second what Midwest Mom says and she asks some important questions. Unfortunately these kind of kids have to be parented rather differently because the good old-fashioned ordinary sort of parenting just doesn't seem to work with them and is actually counter-productive. It is interesting that your sons are so close in age - sounds like they have become fixed allies in the War Against Authority... Refusing to take a shower doesn't matter so much (though I understand it is very aggravating and unpleasant for all concerned) - saying that they want to kill you and basically behaving in anarchic ways does matter very much. ADHD doesn't explain it - although I think ADHD kids are often difficult, not to this degree. Something else is certainly going on.
I am sure others will give you pointers to the best places to go for greater support and more evaluations within the US. Of course you are not horrible for hating their behaviour - you are a normal human being with normal tolerance levels, not (I presume) a saint
You have to be what you are already - a warrior parent. Not that you are literally in a war with your children but you need energy and initiative (the very things that have been drained from you) to take arms against this sea of troubles... Coming here to the forum is one way of arming yourself with insight and understanding. Do please tell us more.

 

[Bunny]

First of all, take a deep breath. Please understand that you are not alone and that none of this is your fault. None!! I want to emphasize that because I heard for so many years that it was all my fault. If I was a better mother. If I only mothered him properly. It's got nothing to do with you. It's the way your boys are wired and they are just different than your daughter. And I understand the need to keep your daughter safe from them. I go throught that with my younger son. I want my boys to have a relationship and to play together and be nice to each other, but at the same time difficult child can be really cruel to easy child and it's hard to find some kind of balance for that.

You said that your older difficult child was has a diagnosis of ADHD. Does he currently take any medications for it? How do the boys do in school, when they are not falling asleep, that is?

I'm going to ask the same questions that Malika did. Where is their father? I have learned from my own experiences that it is IMPERATIVE that their father be on the same page with you when it comes to disciplining your boys. My difficult child tried to years to play divide and conquer and it was working for a while. I finally made husband get on the same page that I was and it not only had an effect on how I felt about my son, but it was a huge influence on problems that husband and I were having at the time. You need someone in your corner.

I know what you mean when you say that you hate the weekend. I am a stay at home mom, and my friends think I am nuts when I say that my favorite day of the week is Monday. Kids back to school, husband back to work, and I have a few hours to decompress until the weekly chaos begins again. And your feeling of not liking your kids very much? Been there, done that, have the T-shirt to prove it. We've all felt that way from time to time, especially our difficult children are in full difficult child mode! It's normal.

The only other suggestion I would make would be for you to see a therapist for yourself, if that is possible. It helps, believe me.

 

[buddy]

Hi Palomina! Welcome to the club no one wanted to join but since we have to be here....this is the best chapter to join. My questions have all been covered by the first three responses. And I fourth, with tons of emphasis....NOT YOUR FAULT, NOT YOUR WEAKNESS, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO FEEL YOUR FEELINGS. Problem is that society in general just can't imagine that there really are kids who just are wired in a way that typical parenting methods do not work well for. The proof of that is that there ARE success stories that happen in whole or in part when new, out of the box ideas are put into place. Is it easy??? NOPE Do we need to develop really tough skin??? YUP (still working hard on that one)

One thing I will add, if you dont have it already, please take the time to get and read "the Explosive Child" by Ross Green. It not only gives us different ideas of parenting these kinds of kiddos, but it gave me permission to not feel guilty for the number of battles I was not facing (for the moment, since there were priorities). I do understand that hygine is a huge issue, but if I had to prioritize, safety would be first. Once overall stress and battles are relieved in our homes, it often is a tiny bit easier to work on issue number two (basket B in explosive child terms). Not coming home to check in without prior permission would be a huge issue for me. (I have a son with 24/7 supervision issues so know it is really tough to do, but it is what it is...not an option for him and he hates it.) Perfectly reasonable to not make a battle out of food. You make it, they dont eat with you, then put it in the fridge (maybe even on their plates) and they can microwave it or eat it cold or make PBJ, dont need to say a word about it, smile.

You sound like you are doing the best you can at this point. Please check in often if you can/need to, and fill us in a little more if you are comfortable doing so. The idea for a complete neuropsychological evaluation is really important. Something is going on here beyond adhd.

{{{HUGS}}} Buddy


PS this is way out of my comfort zone, but others here can comment, if they are so bent on not being home, even at their young ages, is there a chance, no matter how slim, of using drugs/drinking? Can you have them screened (just say it is part of a physical).... preditors can get these kiddos really young, especially difficult child's who have poor impulse control and behavior issues.

 

[Palomina]

Thanks for all the replies, and for your reassurance. It means a lot Now, on to your questions... My boys are both my biological children, and their biological father is not living in this country at this time. He has never been around a whole lot, but the boys do get to see him about once a year... I am married to a wonderful man who is as lost in my world as I am... He and I have many discussions about ideas to try and what can we do and where can we go for help... He is on my side, and we try to present a united front.

My mother has bipolar and a whole mess of other diagnosis's, as well as being an alcoholic. My grandmother was an alcoholic and a control freak... not sure if there is a clinical term for that but she had to have absolute control over anything and everything that she could. I dont know much about the mental health issues on their father's side, as that is kind of a taboo in his culture... Kids don't behave, they get the belt, or that's how it was when he was young.

#1 was ahead on most of his developmental milestones...but he had a couple hours every night that he would scream and scream... It went from when he was about 3 weeks old until he was probably 11 months old. #2 didn't like ANYBODY. We actually called him "cranky Franky" because he didn't want to be held, didn't want to be rocked, nothing. He would tolerate being held to drink his bottle, but that was it.

Malika, The boys are exactly 10 months and 3 days apart... Imagine me when they were young! It was exhausting!! As toddlers, they liked to give hugs and kisses, and played normally... Potty training, it seems, came a little later than others I know, but they didn't "go" anywhere but their diapers... One of them (I don't know for sure which one) would take his diaper off in the middle of the night...

They changed schools this year because we moved in with my husband... They behave "wonderfully" in school, we just got done with PT conferences, and they had good things to say about both of them... The behaviors are entirely outside of school. #1 has tons of acquaintences, but as far as good friends, his "best friend' seems to change from day to day. #2 complains that nobody likes him and he doesn't like anybody...but his teacher says that he gets along with others very well. #2 also seems to have trouble following a conversation... I can be trying to discuss something with him and he will just interrupt me with a question or a statement that has nothing to do with what we are discussing...Usually it is about a TV show he likes or a Christmas present he wants or something along those lines. I have told him hundreds of times to not interrupt people but it happens every time he has something to say... He also can't slow down enough to look both ways before he crosses the street...My 5 year old can be trusted to do that, but not my 9 year old...

#1 has been diagnosed with ADHD, and is currently medicated with Methylphenidate (Ritalin) 30 mg a day of the long acting stuff... I don't think he has ever had a neuropsychologist consult, just a couple hours of testing at the local mental health center when they gave him his diagnosis. #2 has not been diagnosed with anything at all. The doctor thinks they both have ODD, but says there is nothing we can do about that.

How would I get them a neuropsychologist evaluation? I need help... Hubs and I both work, but their issues sometimes interfere with my going to work, and I am in danger of losing my job. I haven'[t been there long enough to qualify for FMLA, and work isn't very understanding... I work 3rd shift, Hubs works varying shifts, but one of us is always at home. I sleep while the kids are at school...about 5 or 6 hours a day, and it's not enough, but I make it work... If I worked any other shift, I would have to have someone watch the kids, and I don't truly think that a babysitter would put up with them for more than a day... My own parents don't watch them because of their behaviors...but I have to pay the bills somehow

 

[InsaneCdn]

Just wondering... when did the behaviours start?
And what was the sequence of events (just roughly) from not being with biodad, to whatever in between, to current?

If the behaviors are fairly recent and there's major changes in family set-up... that would be one clue, but not the only cause.

 

[Palomina]

The behaviors have been there all along, just keep getting worse and worse as they get older and bigger. BioDad has NEVER been around while they could form any sort of a memory...outside of their now yearly visits. I was married previously to a guy who they HATED but they listened to him (???). He became abusive to me, so we left.......that was a couple years ago now. We moved in with hubs in June of this year and got married in July. The behaviors didn't seem to jump in intensity at any one time, just have been steadily increasing as time goes on. Every day is a little worse than the last...Then once in a while, we have a good day without any screaming or yelling, but that is MAYBE once every month or two... If I could figure out what is different about the "good" days, then I could work on having more of them...but I can tell when they get up in the morning what kind of day we are going to have.

 

[Liahona]

Welcome. Their good days probably don't have anything to do with you. Just like their bad days don't have anything to do with you. Sounds like they do need to be evaluated. After you find out what is going on you can get on the right track with how to help them (and you.)

Have their peers at school started to comment about the lack of hygiene? Do the sons care about that? That does sound like a sensory issue. And OTs work with sensory issues.

difficult child 1 doesn't look before cross the street either. We have worked on that one for years. I've had to walk him to school every day (mostly dragging the other kids behind me, literally). And then walk him back home after school. This is his first year of walking himself to school. He is 11 and we just live 2 blocks away from the school.

Do you call the police when they run away? I'm thinking of protecting you with this. Others aren't going to understand about them running from you. They'll be like the school teacher. Plus, if the police do happen to see them they could pick them up and bring them home. You could go to the station before this comes up again and talk to someone. Explain that you are getting them evaluated for mental health reasons and they have a history of running away.

Would the teacher keep them in the classroom until you could pick them up? At least if they run away in front of the teacher you'll have a witness of their behavior.

What does their therapist recommend?

 

[Malika]

Palomina, do your boys do any sporting activities or is there the possibility that they can join any sports clubs? For these kind of children, it's important I think. My son does gym, roller-skating class and tennis and he's only four Next year he'll start rugby and maybe football and I hope martial arts. They have so much physical energy, apart from anything else, and a need for structured activity - as demonstrated by the fact that your boys (and my son) get on okay at school. And then some kind of male presence... and I understand how very difficult it is to "impose" that when your husband is fairly new to them and they probably do not act well with him... Giving them some positive focus in their lives rather than just hanging around town would help and also help their self-esteem, I think. Are they attracted to judo, karate, tae-kwando? Anyone who could take them and get them interested?
Just a couple of ideas...

 

[BusynMember]

You have very complicated sons and unfortunately it is going to be kind of hard to sort out what is going on with them. They are a bit like kids who adopted at older ages because they have been through a few men and there are also mental health issues on the genetic family tree. I am betting that Biological Father also has some mental health problems in his family tree.

NeuroPsychs are in my opinion the best diagnosticians available as they actually do testing. However, if I were you, I would Google up "Attachment Disorder" and see if you think any of those symptoms fit as part of the big picture. When young children have multiple caregivers they can grow to have less-than-adequate attachments to their caregivers. It is possible that to them husband is just another man and nobody they need to care for or listen to. This isn't because he's not a GREAT guy...he probably is...it is a self-preservation that kids form when they do not have a consistent parent in their lives. The fact that hub #2 was an abusive jerk probably did not help them think well of men either.

These kids could have childhood mood disorders, Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), a hodge-podge of problems all together but in my opinion it is probably more than ADHD/ODD. ODD in of itself is not in my opinion a very useful diagnosis as it means "child is defiant." Ok, well, we know that. WHY? A neuropsychologist can help you find out why.

Neuropsychs can be found at university and children's hospitals. Because they are popular to visit, there can be long waiting lists, but they are worth it! While you are waiting, I strongly suggest family therapy so that all of you can talk and be on the same page.

I am really sorry you are having such a hard time, and I hope you find the answers soon and get the right kind of help for you little ones and for yourself and husband. Keep us posted

 

[Bunny]

Palomina, my difficult child is exactly like your sons in one important way: he is fantastic at school. Then he comes home me, and on some days that can b a completely different story! As a friend of mine says "school angel, home devil". difficult child has been on his current medications for less than a year and it has goeetn better. It's not perfect, and I have to accept that it never will be, but it helps to keep him calm, and when he does whirl out of control it takes much less time to bring him back down. Stay strong and have faith. It can get better.

 

[buddy]

Hi, I wanted to comment on the martial arts thing... Or any activity that can make a child learn how to fight well. I had to stop it for my son soon after we started. For some kids it works wonders, for mine, he had no judgement when to use it, didn't get the "only in self defense" idea because he was always often in a fight or flight mode. He kicked for practice...everywhere. Some kids taught him some wrestling moves over the summer, he tried one on me when I was sitting and not expecting it...and I was choking. Even if they understand the concepts for the majority of the time, and learn amazing life philosophies, if they have impulse control problems that are truly neurological and they may not be able to control in some situaitons, I am just saying be aware. hitting a police officer during a panic situation versus seriously injuring them because they are trained fighters can be a huge difference.

Another boy he goes to school with is gifted and has Aspergers. He is now a black belt. He is very proud of his accomplishments etc. Everyone is..... but he has aggression issues and last summer he hit his Integrated Listening Systems (ILS) worker (of 4 years--they were really close/bonded) in the face and broke his nose. He felt awful about himself and he is a far greater danger to himself and others because he knows how to make his punches, kicks and other moves really do damage.

It is hard to think of / predict the future and of the challenges our kids will face, but if there is any chance of uncontrollable aggression then I am just giving you something to consider (weigh the pros and cons because obviously there are MANY pros).... I would never say dont do it....I do think that for most kids these programs teach wonderful skills far beyond the physical moves. I found the same issue with sports that encourage aggression (luckily with my son's brain injury he is not allowed to do full contact like football, wrestling and hockey).

 

[Malika]

That's interesting, buddy. I would not have thought of that but, yes, it makes sense that powerful defence techniques, used wrongly, really could be dangerous.

 

[Otto von Bismark]

Hi, I wanted to comment on the martial arts thing... Or any activity that can make a child learn how to fight well. I had to stop it for my son soon after we started. For some kids it works wonders, for mine, he had no judgement when to use it, didn't get the "only in self defense" idea because he was always often in a fight or flight mode. He kicked for practice...everywhere. Some kids taught him some wrestling moves over the summer, he tried one on me when I was sitting and not expecting it...and I was choking. Even if they understand the concepts for the majority of the time, and learn amazing life philosophies, if they have impulse control problems that are truly neurological and they may not be able to control in some situaitons, I am just saying be aware. hitting a police officer during a panic situation versus seriously injuring them because they are trained fighters can be a huge difference.

Palomina, first of all, I am sorry you are struggling, and I am glad you found the board. The people here have helped me more than people in my own town...some of them docs and other professionals.

My husband and I were talking about this exact thing. Because my son has severe impulse control problems, has public masturbation issues and kills small animals, (makes running away actually look attractive, doesn't it, semi-lol) my husband does not want my son to do anything that could make him able to overpower someone at some point. I was thinking, that because he is clumsy, weight training would be good for him, but my hubby worries about it.
We are going to move toward general fitness, such as P90x and calisthenics and spinning.

Cross country and track have always been good for exhausting a boy. It's competitive, but also personally competitive. They can do better than others, but also compete for personal best. I've seen quite a few ADD dudes find their stride, so to speak, with endurance sports. Soccer is good too, since they run several miles per game. Also, a gifted coach can change a young man's life -- give him that male mentor-ship that I think a lot of boys really crave.

Just take that first step to make a couple of phone calls tomorrow. One day at a time. I too, choose Monday as a favorite day of the week.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Swimming is another good non-violent energy burner... again, individual rather than team, but can lead into team (for example, water polo) if team interaction is of interest.

 

[BusynMember]

I don't think teaching a child who tends to be violent how to do martial arts is smart either, especially if the child has impulse control disorders. I never considered it for Sonic when he was young because he could be fine one minute then pitch a fit the next minute. I didn't think he'd be thinking about how the teacher had told him that you never strike out in anger or you have to control yourself. We put him in soccer and swimming. It still did not exhaust him. Nothing did, but it was good for him to learn how to play with other kids and his meltdowns descreased. In fact, he became a good soccer player and now he plays many sports.

I am thinking that both of the boys have more than ADHD going on however. It is in my opinion unlikely that sports or any activity will make a big difference in the long run. They really do need evaluations and treatment. Very, very unfortunately it is usually not as simple as finding an activity that they like. Both boys sound like quite a bit is going on and that they need to be under the care of a professional who understands children who may have more than one issue.

I really again wish you all the best. Things can improve, but they usually do not get better with only the parents doing it. Most of the time we don't even know what is going on let alone what to do!

 

[Palomina]

Thanks all for the ideas and words of wisdom... Very Very needed We live in a little tiny town and there is just not much here FOR them to do...but I don't want to move away from here, either. I like it that I feel comfortable enough here so that when they don't come home when they're supposed to, I don't necessarily have to worry about their safety. I mean, I do worry about them, but this is a safe little town where everyone knows everyone. Freak things do occur, and in today's day and age, I am aware of that, but this is still small town, USA. I would be out of my mind if we lived in a bigger town.

We tried tae kwon do, but they have a big problem with listening and following along with what they are told to do...this was a few years ago, so maybe they were too young, but it did not go well. They have this "thing" with playing on the floor. WalMart, Dr. office, church... you name it, I will probably have to ask them repeatedly to get up off the floor. Even if there are chairs to sit on, they will slide off the chair and sit on the dang floor.

The boys don't get to go many places simply because their behavior is embarrassing, and SOOOOOOO stressful. Once in a while, i take them with me as a reward or something, but it never fails to remind me why I DON'T take them anywhere. We lead a very boring life out of necessity. My boys have NO social skills or etiquette...it's like they don't have a "censor" in their brains to tell them that they need to act a certain way. Their newest interest is religion... We have switched our family to a different church, and the boys were never active in church or Sunday School, because my church said they were disruptive and not to bring them back. SO, now I go with hubs to his church, and the boys are past the age that they do things like first communion, confession, etc. so they need to catch up. They are eager to learn what they need to, but their behavior is just SO off the wall, I am setting myself and them up for failure if I take them to church. Frustrating.

I am waiting on their pediatrician to get done going over the paperwork that he sent to the school so we can have a follow up visit, then I am going to look into whether our insurance will cover a neuropsychologist consult for them... If not, I am going to apply for MA for them and see where that gets us.

Meanwhile, I am just here, busting my butt all night and pulling my hair out all afternoon Thanks for all your support!

 

[AtMyWitsEnd33]

I found this thread a little late and am desperately trying to catch up so forgive me if I miss something important. I think bulleting things will be the easiest way to help me keep them straight so forgive the formality! I must echo the fact that NONE OF THIS IS YOUR FAULT -- I often beat myself up thinking I should be doing more but that is not reality.
~I agree that an attachment disorder can be at play here. Boys look for a male role model to emulate and if they don't have one to really attach to and learn from it can make things difficult.
~I second Buddy's caution about martial arts. Training an aggressive child how to effectively injure others could turn out very very badly
~As a nursing student, I have to wonder if your son that takes Methylpenidate is having difficulty sleeping because of the medications? My difficult child/daughter's psychiatrist recommended Melatonin (an over the counter medication) to aid with sleep because she has some anxiety issues that prevent her from sleeping. Of course, do not start using it without the psychiatrist's clearance but it may prove helpful in promoting sleep.
~I'm glad you mentioned your church. I know personally, our church is a huge support system for our family - perhaps there is a pastor or someone else that can become a role model or mentor for your boys. Often the youth group leader is gifted in making connections with young children (not sure if your church has one or not). And don't forget the power of prayer, for the Lord walks beside us in our joy but also in our darkness.

Take one day at a time, looking into the future can be so overwhelming. Babysteps often prove to be the most productive way of dealing with situations. Don't try to conquer everything all at once. Rome wasn't built in a day!

 

[JJJ]

Welcome Palomina!

Deep breathes!!! ((Hugs)) How far are you from the cities? It sounds like a complete evaluation would really help. The boys are clearly out of control but the best way for you to regain control is very dependent on why they act this way.

They are old enough to get kicked out of the Garden of Eden but that only works if this misbehavior is deliberate and they value their stuff. They are younger enough for social stories and basic training.

I'd recommend reading The Explosive Child. It is the guide for kids like ours.

Welcome to the board!