I spent the morning in tears...

[TheWalrus]

Spoke with my therapist today who asked if I was sure she even needed the money for prescriptions or was just using that (knowing that would be the thing that would be most likely to open my wallet) to get money. It is possible. She didn't even give me an amount - said, "Oh, it's like a hundred bucks." Later in the conversation she had told me that pharmacy was trying to get it sent a different way through the doctor so insurance would pay. Standing back, remembering her words without emotion, therapist may be right. It may have been a guilt play for money for something else.

<sigh>

I long for a time when I can speak to her without wondering, "Is this the truth? Partial truth? Or full manipulation?" Therapist says it doesn't matter whether her words are truth or not as long as I have boundaries and remain consistent with them.

But it is hard to ever have a relationship without transparency or trust, when every dialogue feels like a game where the rules are ever changing. I told therapist that I can easily see why d c's relationships don't last bc if she weren't my child, I would not have her in my life and tolerate her lies, manipulations, and abuse. She burns bridge after bridge after bridge, without a care or regret, but knows that mother can never turn her back forever.

What a sad, sad life she doesn't even realize she lives. She thinks she has it all figured out - it *works* for her bc there is always someone to take her in, take her where she needs to go, give her a phone to use, food to eat...to take responsibility for her and when she detonates and it ends, she moves on to the next one who will take hold of the hand she puts out.

 

[Copabanana]

Therapist says it doesn't matter whether her words are truth or not as long as I have boundaries and remain consistent with them.

I agree with your therapist. I am finding this to be so in myself.

I have to find that place where I am strong. Somewhere beyond anger and fear.

it *works* for her

she moves on to the next one

I do not really feel it works for them. I think they feel desperate and that is why they work us. They do not so much feel we are their marks, but that we are their only real chance. It is a very terrible and horrible way to live.

That is what needs to change. They need to feel any real chance comes from inside of them.

I hate it for them and I hate it for us. It is to live almost as an animal. Not even like a dog or a cat. Because in my home my animals feel complete security. Like some other kind of animal going from place to place, being kicked to the curb.

I have a son. The thought of having a daughter living this kind of vulnerability would drive me to drink. I think it is easier for us, parents of young men.

I am heartbroken for all of us.

COPA

 

[TheWalrus]

So I am curious - how many times do you have to say NO before they hear it?

Today was new tactic: big long guilt text and "she had worked some things out" and now she only needs half the money she needed but if I can't do it, she "understands." (Not really.) I have decided not to answer (which will be my answer) in the hopes to avoid a vicious attack.

Since she refused therapy, I have told her no...no...no...no...but it is getting harder and I get more and more anxious knowing that at any moment she can blow apart. I don't know any other ways to word it. I have clearly and plainly said, several times, "You have made your choice. You are going to have to make your own arrangements and take care of your own business. It is your responsibility because this is what you wanted." I have said that seven ways to Sunday, hubs has said it numerous times, and she will wait a few days or a week and then there is a "request" of some kind..."I need you to..." or "Can you..."

Are they deaf to our voice unless it is saying what they want to hear? I feel like a rag doll constantly shook in the jaws of her constant needs and wants. No matter how many times I say no, she just keeps on.

So how many not otherwise specified until she knows I mean it? Or how can I say NO in a way that is final? (Without a fight?)

 

[AppleCori]

Hi Walrus.

It may take quite a while before she stops asking.

One tactic our DCs employ is to wear us down.

They have often been able to outlast us. They have often been able to get what they want from us or others by getting us to give in just to shut them up. Sometimes we do whatever we can to have some peace in our lives.

I will take a while to for them to finally realize we are serious. We have to be consistent in telling them no and meaning it. Eventually, she will stop. But it may take a while.

Be strong.

Apple

 

[AppleCori]

Just a thought, Wal....

Shouldn't your daughter be able to get on Medicaid, due to her disability and low/no income? She should be able to get her scrips for very little $$ I would assume.

I would pay for legitimately needed scrips if I could, but I would pay the pharmacy directly.

 

[TheWalrus]

She IS on Medicaid AND my insurance. She has A LOT of Rx and I told her a long time ago to file a waiver so they would pay for all of her scrips. Did she? No. Bc why would she when she can have me pay? Or, as therapist pointed out, perhaps they are paid and she is using the one thing that would make me feel the worst as a tactic for money. Pharmacy won't give me info as that would be violation of confidentiality.

She knew when exactly what she had to do and what she needed to take care of to care for herself if she was going to refuse our requirements (drug/psychiatric rehab) and not live with us. She has physical issues that need medically addressed that she is putting off/ignoring/making excuses for not dealing with. I cannot drag her by the hair of the head into a doctor's office any more than I can make her get help with her issues.

It is literally like watching someone stand on the railroad track as the train comes. You pull them back only to have them jump right back on as the next train comes. She has no sense of fear or consequence; just she wants what she wants when she wants it and there is hell to pay if she doesn't get it - including hurting herself to teach others a lesson.

Watching her self-destruction destroys me and I can no longer do it, so I avoid it at all costs. I am a coward.

 

[New Leaf]

Watching her self-destruction destroys me and I can no longer do it, so I avoid it at all costs. I am a coward.

You are no more a coward than any of us are Walrus, stop bullying yourself.
Who in their right mind could coldly stand in the face of their children self destructing?
That is why I am here posting as I do.
It helps me to stand firm.
It is a reminder over and over of the road I must take.
For my sanity as well as my two.
You are not a coward, you are a warrior in the toughest battle.
The fight you are waging is just as much for your daughter, as it is for you.
We will not be around forever as a safety net for these adult children.
They have got to learn to make better choices.
It is up to us, to stay the course and not give in,
we are not giving up, but we are not giving in.

You are stronger than I, Walrus.

My two, do not call me, they "punish" me with no contact.
I think I have got it a lot easier than having phone calls and texts,
the relentlessness of it would wear my soul down.

The parents here on CD are the most courageous people ever.
Coward is not even in the vocabulary.
You are brave, Walrus and don't you ever forget that.

(((HUGS)))
leafy

 

[InsaneCdn]

So how many not otherwise specified until she knows I mean it? Or how can I say NO in a way that is final? (Without a fight?)

Just keep saying NO.
The problem, as I see it, is that they only have one well-developed coping skill, and that's to fall back on you. And they have been polishing that one for quite a number of years.

So, you are going to have to be a rubber wall. No. No. No. No. No. No. and No. And repeat. Until, eventually, they start to develop some of their other coping skills. Many of them DO develop better skills, but it takes time. Don't try to rush the process.

Put on your rhino-skin suit, and ... just keep saying no.

 

[BusynMember]

I have always been a talker who wanted to explain and discuss it. Of late (slow learner me) I have learned not to talk to those who wont hear. Some disturbed people will never hear you so I think it is best to just do what you do without words. Words fuel the fire, are twisted, and go in one ear and out the other.
I think people get it when we stop arguing and just show then by our actions that we mean business and that it is not up for discussion.

 

[Hopeful97]

So I am curious - how many times do you have to say NO before they hear it?

Today was new tactic: big long guilt text and "she had worked some things out" and now she only needs half the money she needed but if I can't do it, she "understands." (Not really.) I have decided not to answer (which will be my answer) in the hopes to avoid a vicious attack.

Since she refused therapy, I have told her no...no...no...no...but it is getting harder and I get more and more anxious knowing that at any moment she can blow apart. I don't know any other ways to word it. I have clearly and plainly said, several times, "You have made your choice. You are going to have to make your own arrangements and take care of your own business. It is your responsibility because this is what you wanted." I have said that seven ways to Sunday, hubs has said it numerous times, and she will wait a few days or a week and then there is a "request" of some kind..."I need you to..." or "Can you..."

Are they deaf to our voice unless it is saying what they want to hear? I feel like a rag doll constantly shook in the jaws of her constant needs and wants. No matter how many times I say no, she just keeps on.

So how many not otherwise specified until she knows I mean it? Or how can I say NO in a way that is final? (Without a fight?)

Walrus,

I found the same thing happening and it is exhausting - you are absolutely right - how many different ways and how many times do we have to say NO before they stop or understand.

Right now I am doing what you are doing not responding to any kind of attempted contact. I believe the longer we are able to keep that distance there the stronger we get which helps us to stand strong the next time.


We are all standing strong with you warrior mom.
Hugs,
Hopeful

 

[Hopeful97]

Walrus,

I just read your most recent post, you are not a coward. You are a warrior mom.

We are dealing with incredibly extreme difficult and heartbreaking (at the same time) situations. I think what others have said stand your ground, as Insane said be a rubber wall no no no no no as long as it takes. Eventually they will get it, it may take a long time. Keep in your mind you have to take care of yourself. I hope this helps.

Huge Hugs,
Hopeful

 

[TheWalrus]

Thank you. I re-read the text and she had done as many of you warned - "upped the ante." Her first request for money was made like it was no big deal, she had been off her medications for a week and "was fine." I knew speaking to her she was trying to make me feel guilty even after I told her we truly cannot afford to help her (financially or emotionally, but that was left unsaid) because she continued to mention it throughout the conversation.

The text dropped the amount she wanted but amped up the guilt level, telling me her doctor told her it was dangerous to stop taking her medications and she had "already had a suicide attempt" since she stopped them. She needed some things that were in my house so I decided not to answer the text and mailed her things to her.

I have decided that when she can speak to me or text me without the constant trying to wear me down, I will respond. When it is guilt, rage or manipulation, I just won't. I know that means I may not have contact with her until she understands that I am not going to enable or rescue. I also know it may mean she chooses not to have contact with me if I refuse to be useful to her.

But I think it is the only way I can have some semblance of peace and maintain my own health and sanity. Right now, every time she contacts my heart races, my stomach clenches, and I feel this sudden blanket of black doom. I carry it around for days, disrupting everything in my life, and I just can't keep doing it. I can no longer stand that panicked, frantic feeling every time my phone lights up.

Having all of you as a support system makes it bearable and helps me not to waiver. Other people just don't understand and I would buckle under the weight of their judgments.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

My son has been living in current home since end of November. He's talked often about the older guy he rents room from. A few times I've been tempted to contact that man to see how my son is doing, in his opinion. I think, I know he is aware of some of my son's issues. But I realized very quickly that contacting him was a bad idea. Son is 23, I need let go & to stop seeking info via 'others' for my own sanity. It's not good for son. It's not detaching for me.

Ahh yes, I learned the hard way checking up on son. I must have 30 numbers of contacts for son, different folks he has lived with, folks who have called me, folks I have met via son, etc. He lived one state from me, so he would call and say this or that, I would call that person and check on son's story, so I could catch him in his lies. It was tiring, it was non stop cycle of he said, I verify, I call him out on his lies, he changes his story, etc.

I don't do that now- I don't want to know. I have learned how to detach and not get sucked in his "drama". He actually admitted he lied about something to me, without me cornering him, calling him out. I was totally shocked. I was like wow, this really works.

 

[Hopeful97]

Walrus,

I am going through very similar circumstances right now too.


We have to remember to take care of ourselves, I was physically I'll for approx 3 months (last summer) dropped 5 sizes (a terrible way to loose weight). The stress and anxiety that the chaos of our d c s causes is not worth our mental and/or physical health. We are getting older and quite frankly I am aging fast enough I do not need any extra help.

Remember what you said "I have decided ........"that is absolutely correct YOU decide when there will be contact. You can do it.

It's very hard sometimes and sometimes I talk to d c against my better judgement and it begins to go south. I hang up and go back to no contact. The time between contacts keeps getting longer I am sure it is because I am no longer useful. My response to him is becoming like "no you know what to do, I have given you the info for you to get a place to stay an opportunity to get your GED, get a job, get food, etc".

I feel as you, having the other parents on this site makes it bearable. It helps to make me stronger and keep me strong. They truly understand.

One cannot truly understand unless one has experienced and lived it.

Keep posting, sister, you are among other warrior parents who support and care for you.
Huge long Hugs,
Hopeful

 

[TheWalrus]

And the hits just keep on coming...

Bc I didn't respond, she decided to flame me on social media. I don't have her or have access to her but what she posted was sent to me. (I learned a long time ago not to "check on" but unfortunately, people like to send me updates on her bc they think I would "want to know." If only they understood.)

Guilt didn't work...
Threat of suicide didn't work...
Let's try public humiliation...

...because acting like a grown woman and taking responsibility for myself is not an option. You must be punished for not giving in to me. <insert temper tantrum>

(shaking my head)

 

[New Leaf]

Ugh, sorry Walrus, looks like she's pulling out all the stops. Sigh. Why does this not surprise......lovely.
I would imagine by now most folks have figured things out, and consider the source. It still doesn't make it any easier. These kids. Unacceptable.
(((Hugs)))
leafy

 

[Hopeful97]

So Sorry Walrus, do not let it affect the strength you have built up thus far. If you have to stay off social media for a while. Of course you do what you want or need to it just works for me.

I totally agree with Leafy totally unacceptable!

STAND STRONG WARRIOR MOM!

HUGE BEAR HUGS,

Hopeful

 

[Albatross]

Guilt didn't work...
Threat of suicide didn't work...
Let's try public humiliation...

...because acting like a grown woman and taking responsibility for myself is not an option. You must be punished for not giving in to me. <insert temper tantrum>

I think this pretty well clinches it being manipulation, and you saw it as such.

So I am curious - how many times do you have to say NO before they hear it?

She heard it as no, and she didn't like it. BUT she heard it. It's a start.

I know it doesn't feel like much of a victory right now, though.

I'm so sorry, Walrus.

 

[JMom]

Walrus,

Sorry you are experiencing this, you sound hurt and I can feel your anxiety. I agree 100% with others that to disengage is wise. I hope you don't feel forced to act. The best day of my life was when I asked a friend for advice of "what do I do?" And her response was do nothing. Try that she said. I had never tried doing nothing. It was pretty refreshing.
Hugs to u!

 

[Stephers]

The more I read from you, the more your dtr & my son sound more & more alike.

I cld totally see my son saying that. The way I see it? It's to gain their (ppl offering housing) pity. Your dtr is using emotional manipulation for her gain. It's the addict in her, talking. You are the easiest target, you love her unconditionally, right? It's always us. It's love/hate. Up/down.

My son is super quick to revert to 'trash mom' mode. He will bring up anything & everything he can, to hurt me, when provoked. He even is making up blatant lies about his childhood the last few times. Yes, it hurts. But, I am tired. And, I know it's the addict talking. I feel sorry for him. I pray to St. Anne for him every day that I remember to. For his daily safety & for sobriety for him.

He also had a bad bad accident last March & also could've died...or been paralyzed. His guardian angels surrounded him, he is fine, healed & unscathed. Thank God. I've seen a bit less risk taking since that accident.

As I read your part about you not wanting to bash your dtr to those ppl, I agree & think EXACTLY like you. They do enough to ruin their own reputation, alienate others. I do not feel right adding to that. Part of detaching from their tumultuous lives is letting them deal with EVERYTHING. If the ppl let her move in, that is their choice. You are her 'mom', not her 'mommy'. I don't think you should be involved in that situation at all. Let her do what she does. Time will tell if she burns THAT bridge...you don't need to start the fire for her.

My son has been living in current home since end of November. He's talked often about the older guy he rents room from. A few times I've been tempted to contact that man to see how my son is doing, in his opinion. I think, I know he is aware of some of my son's issues. But I realized very quickly that contacting him was a bad idea. Son is 23, I need let go & to stop seeking info via 'others' for my own sanity. It's not good for son. It's not detaching for me.

If those ppl who are housing your dtr try to contact you, I'd avoid at all costs. Don't answer phone. If they get you on the spot, I'd just say 'I need to refer you back to my dtr, she's an adult..'

It is all so hard. And the road is bumpy.....(((hugs))))