In a totally new place and need perspective? Cedar? Anyone?

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
"If you marry a gentile, he will beat you and call you dirty Jew every time you have a fight."
My mother did marry a gentile, my father. And that was always the underlying subtext in the family. And because I identified with my maternal side, it was always the deepest sense I had of myself.
he didn't love me, he wanted my money.
My mother never said this, nor do I think she felt it. While I did have some money in the years before she died, and I earned well, I think her sense of me and my sister's too, is that I had not much at all.
So if your mother was civl to M.
Yes, she was. She treated him with affection, and a measure of respect. And at the end, gratitude. He cared for her as if she was his own mother.

Serenity, we have sure been through a lot this week..and at the end of it...I do not even know what really happened.

COPA
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Cedar, something strange and scary is happening to me. I am navigating based upon the signals you are sharing with me *while I stay very close to M and my animals. I have come to trust you and Serenity very, very much.

This happens to me, too. There are times when I am so without a place to stand that I can only acknowledge that I don't really know. I have faith in the journey because we have done well thus far. I trust you and Serenity. I trust D H. I am able now to tell him what I need to hear. He is able now to change the color of what I thought I needed, and to respond with something simple and just right.

Like when you posted about M sticking his tongue out. What we are doing is serious and scary to us. We don't feel courageous at all, as we come through it. We feel (I do, anyway) vulnerable. Like I'm making terrible errors of judgment. Part of what we are learning is to sit with those kinds of feelings. We are committing rebellion against the negative internal my mother/myself.

We are afraid for ourselves; part of us though, is determined to take these risks.

My D H, Serenity's D H, and M are able to help us remember laughter.

They remind us we are good.

In such simple, honest ways as M sticking his tongue out, making fun of your certainty that the old belief systems of self contempt are true things; in the way my D H says "Whatever, Cedar. It was dark in there. I thought you were the dog."

And laughter frees us from that hypnotic feeling of self contempt.

Laughter is very strengthening, for us.

Everything was so deathly serious for us, as our mothers committed full force to cheating us of the innocent grandiosity of childhood.

We were raised on negative grandiosity. Images reflected from a dark and broken mirror informed our senses of self.

How lucky we are that we can love ourselves through the gentle, simple true things those who love us do for us.

There was a time we could not see that. A time when we were too defended maybe, to welcome it.

?

I don't know.

But I do know it makes me happy to think, again and again, of that imagery of M sticking his tongue out and of you, relaxing into all of it.

I do think of that more than you know, Copa.

I like M very much, because of the simple, easy way he cares for you. That is a definition of cherishing, I think. Simple, easy, real stuff that happens in the every day of life. It heals something in the heart of me, when D H does those kinds of things that make me laugh.

I feel accepted, in that moment.

It's so strange too, Copa and Serenity. I remember those moments like they shine.


Cedar
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
But we know our moms were not healthy enough to do better for us than they did.
I actually think they did NOT do the best for us that they could. They did what they did because they were angry, had low self-esteem and needed somebody to blame. And it felt good to them. And we were their children. They knew.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I actually think they did NOT do the best for us that they could. They did what they did because they were angry, had low self-esteem and needed somebody to blame. And it felt good to them. And we were their children. They knew.

I am having some trouble around how to see both my mom and my sister. If they know; if they knew, all along what they were doing and why, if they do what they do on purpose...that would be evil.

So, I don't know what to do with that.

Cedar
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Cedar, don't do anything right now. Pause and reflect.

Decisions were thankfully made for me. My sister decided she was the one who cut me off t he last time, although it was really me and I didn't mean for it to be forever, however, in light of reflection and talking to a lot of people who know me well a nd want the best for me, I have decided t hat regardless of whether or not she ever wants to see me again one day, she will never get that opportunity, except at that dreaded, sad funeral, in which I will not be available to her and will be with whomever in my family chooses to come. In other worlds, she will not get me alone and I'm not sure I want my family to even sit with the other two siblings. I've never been a big fan of tradition. I can mourn and love and miss my father no matter where I sit or which parts of the funeral I involve myself in. My own beliefs are not Christian or Jewish and I believe he will know how much I miss him and how I will talk to him still, even if I never went at all. But I'm going. I will try to look forward and that will be the FOO final day as a threesome in the same space.

My brother did not outright force me out of his life, but he hasn't been around for so long and I don't feel close to him. The incidents with him being so close to that minor child (which totally creeped me out) and his nasty letter to me that I didn't read, pretty much was the end for us, at least on my part. I have no idea w hat goes on in his head. I know he thinks our mother was terrific. That alone makes me sadly laugh, but she WAS nice to HIM.

I actually had signs that I should leave. My sister probably never expected me to drop the gavel and say "you're done forever" but after she read my words here and called me a liar for the truth of them, I am guessing she figured that her chances ran out. As for brother, it is pretty easy as we have nothing in common.

It is easy to say good-bye the way it happened to me.

My sister was always in control.She controlled when she was kind enough (cough) to speak to me and when I was a bad girl and needed a "time out" from her. She lost that power. I feel as if it is my decision now. That is empowering.

Cedar, you have to be ready to feel good about it.

You can also do "medium chill." When you have to be in contact with one of them, don't engage them. Say, "Oh." "Yes." "No." "Wow." "Interesting." "I see." Don't give them anything to use and they will get bored and probably terminate the contact fast. That is one way to sort of stay in minimal touch with somebody whom you don't like very much and don't want to whisper your secrets to. If they ask something personal, like "Are you going to go up North next weekend?" just say "We haven't decided."

I am practicing medium chill with even people I like, such as co-workers, just to see how well it works...lol. It's great.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I actually think they did NOT do the best for us that they could
I think each of our mothers has/had personality issues, pervasive and fixed ways of seeing themselves and others that they could not think their way out of.
They knew.
Yes, I believe they knew. They chose. And hypothetically, they could have chosen differently. They did not because while they may have known another way to be for others being who they were...they could not or would not choose differently for themselves. While we were their victims, they were their own victims too.

A living example, I think, is Cedar's mother. Here it seems she was offered true love and devotion from the Greek Orthodox priest. And what does she do, decide to end her life continuing to play Macchiavelli with her younger daughter. Has she not had enough excluding and ridiculing and being mean and small? I believe that although she could have chosen differently because of her personality limits, really could not find it in her.

She could call Cedar, who I know she loves...but she cannot rise to the level to do it...even for herself...just as my mother could not tell me she was sorry...but she could tell M's sister that she would tell me she was sorry.
They did what they did because they were angry, had low self-esteem and needed somebody to blame.
I think it is different for each mother. My mother had high self esteem, was extremely guilty and defensive and ultimately fearful. Cedar's mother seems to have an imperious and mean streak and likes to play G-d. What unifies them is the fixed and rigid limits of each...and their willingness, indeed, indifference to sacrifice their children, to their own needs.

Still I believe they did what they were built to do, by their early lives. Which they never rose above. While people with personality disorders now routinely seek out psychotherapy (because of available and effective psychotherapies, i.e. DBT) there were no such options during the lifetimes of our mothers and the norm to do so, was not there.

I have empathy for our mothers. I think my own mother did the best she could do. I am gratified that she sought therapy from her fifties on...I think it made a difference.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I think each of our mothers has/had personality issues, pervasive and fixed ways of seeing themselves and others that they could not think their way out of.
Then how did WE do it?

Certainly they knew they were being abusive. We'll have to agree to disagree in a gentle way. I hold them responsible for their parenting, regardless of their temperament. I don't buy:

"That's just Mom being Mom...haha. She's abusive."

They are not psychotic. They knew. They hurt us on purpose.

At least...that is how I see it.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Still I believe they did what they were built to do, by their early lives. Which they never rose above. While people with personality disorders now routinely seek out psychotherapy (because of available and effective psychotherapies, i.e. DBT) there were no such options during the lifetimes of our mothers and the norm to do so, was not there.
This is true. But they didn't have this when I became a mother either and, trust me, I am wired differently. I still knew enough not to repeat my mother's behavior to my kids. My biggest nightmare was to turn into her. I never did call my kids names, ridicule them, belittle their choices or treat one better than the other. Trust me, it is not always easy when you have one child who makes you feel good and one who makes parenting a challenge, They need us to be loving and consistent. And accepting.

If our mothers could not bring themselves to be decent, then it's on their shoulders to me. I picked up a lot of negativity about myself from mostly my mother, but I knew enough not to dump that on my kids.

No, I'm done making excuses. But that is me. We all take our own journey.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
My mother had high self esteem,
It could have been an act, Copa. Or she could have been a narcissist. the world is all about them so they act like they only think of themselves and find themselves wonderful, yet deep down they feel pretty badly about themselves. Not saying it was so, just food for thought.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I am doing medium chill with my son, and I did not even know it. He called today. His day off. He was bored he said. Good. I am glad it no longer suits him to hang out at home with nothing to do.

I listen. The only thing I asked was how work is doing.
If they know; if they knew, all along what they were doing and why, if they do what they do on purpose...that would be evil.
Do you think that Anthony Weiner really chooses to do what he does, when he sends pictures on his phone to girls? Do you think Hillary Clinton chooses to act so controlling, so withholding, so contemptuous and frightened of her political enemies, that she may in fact lose her chance to be president because of these attitudes and behaviors? Recent polls are showing her to be as mistrusted and thought to be as corrupt as was considered Richard Nixon. If she had true freedom of choice do you believe that she would decide to self-destruct, as much as she wants to be president?
My brother did not outright force me out of his life, but he hasn't been around for so long and I don't feel close to him.
You know, for many years it was like this with my sister. I never, ever pushed the issue. I let her be her...and I did not confront her. Until she began to push my mother around..when she was vulnerable.

And then her hatred of me and our mutual mistrust became overt. Almost 60 years it all stayed underground.
 
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Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Then how did WE do it?
I think it is a whole set of circumstances. I think by the time our mother's got out of early childhood, they were already so damaged, a lot for them was predetermined. Also, I think they did not suffer as much as they made other people suffer. So, motivation to change was lacking. I think my mother is to be credited because she went to therapy to have a relationship with her daughters. Had she not done so, I do not know if I would have been willing.

I think in a way because we were so targeted, it may have saved us paradoxically from the rigidity and fixed quality of our sisters. Because we were all three marginalized, this gave us a little air bubble of freedom, a place to reflect, to feel apart. This may have been a saving grace as much as it was a cross to bear.

I am not saying, Serenity, that they are not responsible. I am not saying that they did not choose themselves, over us. I am not saying that they did not target us. I am saying that they were already broken when they were very young, as were our sisters.
Certainly they knew they were being abusive.
They knew.
I hold them responsible for their parenting
I do too.
They hurt us on purpose.
They did. They chose themselves.
They are not psychotic.
No.
If our mothers could not bring themselves to be decent, then it's on their shoulders to me.
Yes, I agree. I am not absolving them of responsibility.
Or she could have been a narcissist.
Yes, I believe she was.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I think my mother is to be credited because she went to therapy to have a relationship with her daughters. Had she not done so, I do not know if I would have been willing.
Ok, Copa. So your mother WANTED to have a relationship with you and was willing to go to therapy for it. This is huge on her part and a big credit to her. My mother NEVER would have gone to therapy for ANYTHING, let alone to try to have a better, more functional relationship with me. This puts your mother ten notches ahead of mine. She knew t hat something was wrong and tried to correct it. Kudos to her!!!!
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I am saying that they were already broken when they were very young, as were our sisters.
Oh, on this point, I am in 100% agreement. I have no doubt all three of us were severely damaged by the time we reached eighteen. And I suspect the same for everyone who grew up with chaotic, mean-spirited mothers and fathers.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Yes, I believe she was
We have some with narcissistic traits in my FOO. Without a doubt, Uncle Vain (I didn't name him that for nothing). He was all about himself and everything he did was selfserving, from the side of him I saw. My sister is so hung up on her looks that I don't know if she is a narcissist or that this preoccupation is due to her eating disorder, but it is not within the normal range.

I am quite sure my mother is the real person in the family who had many borderline traits, if not the entire spectrum. Therefore she had no skills to teach her children, especially one with some special issue, how to behave in a normal way. I didn't see narcissism in her. She was more chaotic, moody, happy/sad, angry/not angry, unpredtable and she saw all people as either black or white. There was no middle ground.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I just read this article on Hillary Clinton. I think it might be easier to think about our own mothers by looking at somebody that we kind of know...but on whom we were not dependent.

While each of our mothers characters' are different from each other and from that of Hillary, I think Hillary's personality is not entirely working for her (to but it kindly)....She can only see it in a limited way... Just as our mothers are/were limited.

This is not a commentary on her candidacy and if she is the nominee I will probably vote for her. But I doubt if she will become president. She is too out of touch with herself.

She just does not get it. Even though she says she does.

Entitlement/deserving
Suspicion. The sense that other's are responsible. Not her.
Dismissive of others.
The sense of her special status.
Grandiosity
She deserves special rules/rules are for others. Not her.


Someone tell Hillary the White House isn't hers - yet
Rochelle Riley, Detroit Free Press Columnist2 p.m. EDT August 28, 2015
The Democratic Party told Hillary Clinton to wait her turn, but does she feel the White House belongs to her and that she doesn't have to work for it?
Poll: Clinton faces battle to win Michigan

What Clinton may be ignoring is the level of distrust that surrounds her like the dust cloud around Charles Schulz's beloved Pigpen. It just won't go away.

She also believes that questions about her character are coming solely from the GOP. But that is not true, and unfortunately for her, some are coming from women.

This woman — speaking of myself — likens her behavior to that of a gridiron star who feels she won't get into the game until the cheers get loud enough to motivate her. She doesn't seem to think other candidates matter, and she's showing disdain for the media, perhaps because she feels she doesn't need them.

She's acting like the first-string spot is hers, and she's waiting for the Super Bowl to be bothered.

But she better give Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers a call.

Rodgers was the backup behind Brett Favre for the Packers. When Favre got hurt in a game against the Dallas Cowboys in 2007, Rodgers got his shot and took it, completing 18 passes for 201 yards, with no interceptions.

This was a guy who'd spent 21/2 seasons on the sidelines. This was a guy picked 24th in the first round of the 2005 draft. This was a guy working hard while waiting to work harder.

Now, he has the highest NFL passer rating in the regular season. He's the only player in NFL history to pass for more than 4,000 yards in each of the first two seasons as a starting QB, and he did well on "Jeopardy." He's a bonafide star who earned his current status.

Rodgers showed up and works hard every game, all season because he knows the Super Bowl isn't promised.

Related:Hillary Clinton has Democrats in a panic

So if Hillary Rodham Clinton wants to be the first female president of the U.S., she better know that the White House isn't promised. She better encourage cheers rather than expect them.

She better get on the field — because Vice President Joe Biden wouldn't be mulling a possible run if he didn't see an opening. And Sen. Elizabeth Warren wouldn't be getting calls to run — even after ruling it out — if people didn't think there was a need.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
You can also do "medium chill." When you have to be in contact with one of them, don't engage them.

This is good advice, Serenity.

When we began the FOO Chronicles, our purpose was to address dysfunctional patterns in our thinking and learn how that was affecting our kids ~ and all of our relationships, including, as it turned out, our relationships to ourselves. We are finding and identifying and addressing those patterns, and the roles come of them, beautifully. The thing we are finding that we did not expect (for me, this is true) is that the core dysfunction at the hearts of our families of origin are vital, toxic things to this day.

That is the part we were not believing. Copa gave us the name of that swirling feeling of disbelief: Dissonance.

Another term for that feeling of dissonance is: FOG

Now that we are able to identify and step away from the role requirements necessary to survival in our abusive families of origin, we see the strangenesses, the needless cruelties and unkindnesses, that run through every interaction with them. We experience dissonance. We keep trying to fit what we know with what we thought we knew. The pieces just don't interlock. We are beginning to realize, I think this is true, that our families of origin are operating, to this day, from roles designed to service the mother's (in our cases) dysfunction. It seems to me that our mothers still cannot see their children as other than externalized extensions of themselves.

I think they do not question what they feel for us even to this day, because they already "know". In the sense that all of us close ourselves to further understanding on any subject we think we "know", from whether or not an airplane could fly, back in the time before the dynamics of flight were understood, to the elusive structure of the DNA molecule that seemed impossible to figure out before the spiral structure we all take so for granted today was known.

That would explain why, when I visited my mom that day with my granddaughters, she pretended she was going to hit me. There had to have been an experience of dissonance for her that she resolved by finding the child I was in the grandmother I became. The dissonance was resolved by putting the adult me in my place: you are still what I say you are.

Not who: what.

What a nasty, nasty thing that was, that happened to me that day.

I feel badly for myself.

The nature of interaction with an abusive parent changes from overt to thinly disguised covert abuse, but the power dynamic is what it always was: a skewed and misshapen thing that is hurtful to all of us to this very day.

So, our abusers do choose. I think they respond to their adult children from an ever more encompassing sense of dissonance: It is wrong to strike an adult. In our mother's worlds, adults are either contemptibly less than, or awesomely superior to, the mother. I think the dissonance, for the abusive parent, comes from knowing the adult in front of her, though undeniably the selfsame object the mother believes her to be, cannot be hit or abused. One does not strike or display overt contempt for other adults, lest they strike back. (Instead, one solicits allies, as my mother and sister and all of sister's family did, the day they rolled their eyes at one another behind the back of the woman who, older than my mother, had just done all the driving ~ in a vehicle that she owned ~ to bring my mother to my sister's and then, was told that although she had spent that first night there in the past, there was no room for her in their home, this time. And there they all stood, rolling their eyes at the woman's discomfiture.) On the other hand, the child turned adult cannot possibly be awesomely more than. She must then be, after all, the contemptible, less-than thing the mother created of her child in the first place.

That is what I think we are up against when we interact with our families of origin.

I can be surprised into dissonance when interacting with my abuser(s), too.

My default position has been a role.

A very unpleasant place to be. A place that leads, without exception, to some degree of "automaton".

Though she looks so different, now that we are adults, the older, frailer mother insists she is still the abusive monster mother that scared us half to death when we were little kids. Experiencing dissonance ourselves, we pop ourselves into some role having to do with protection or kindness or some other appropriately adult place to be. We do that because, on so many levels of self, we are still scared silly of the monster mother live in our imaginations, and so familiar to us through that negative self talk running, like some inaudible unstoppable tape, in our heads.

And we know those tapes are in there, because we are hearing them consciously these days through the work we are doing here.

And they are nasty, hurtful things, those things we tell ourselves so routinely that we don't even hear them anymore and have to consciously seek them, to find and address and, over time, change the viciousness of our own self talk.

Thanks, mom.

Even to decide to be kinder to ourselves requires a certain amount of healing.

No wonder we feel so confused around our abusers.

So, that's what we're afraid of. The feeling of dissonance.

If, as Copa suggests, our sisters have taken on the power-over role of the abusive mother, that would explain our sisters' behaviors, too.

Again, the fear we experience when we think the sister is going to show up at our house or call, as she threatens she will, or when we think of calling them, is the fear of dissonance.

It sickens us; we can't make sense of any of it, so we confront or deny the fear feeling, and do what we require of ourselves as adults.

So, we can know we will experience dissonance in every interaction with our families of origin. Knowing, and having named and understood its genesis, we can name where we are, and stand up to it.

Dissonance; again, a thing that turns out to be totally understandable and so, within our control.

That is the thing we are afraid of. Dissonance. We made the luncheon. We used the good china but somehow, everything fell apart somehow and we feel sick and sickened and confused and responsible.

But we just can't figure out where we went wrong.

We didn't go wrong.

This isn't fixable.


***

I don't think I will hear from them at all, Serenity. That is how it is done, in my family. The last time, my mother was supposed to have said: "If Cedar does not want to be part of this family, then this family wants no part of her." At the time, I did not know what she meant. I knew I felt deeply shamed to understand that my mother did not care enough about me to clarify with me a situation I was not aware of having created.

I no longer feel shame when I think about our interactions. I understand the underlying theme of so much of what happens, and of what has happened, all of our lives.

I am having trouble believing it.

Isn't that something.

The other side of my family of origin is that they are bright; really bright, and funny and cute. But they are deadly, like a nest full of vipers. Humor is ridicule based. I see that now.

How strange.

Probably I would not find them so entertaining, today.

Our work is helping me unravel the nastiness of all of it.

Shame, in all its ramifications.

I get it now that this healing process has nothing real to do with my family of origin at all. It has to do with me. I do not require them to heal, and I probably require not to see them, to heal. I never had family, not in any real sense of that word. Not in the sense of people who love me having my back, and not in the sense of having people who love and believe in me.

Isn't that a sad thing to know.

What a courageous thing we all have done, in creating our beautiful lives without all those good, strengthening things everyone else has had ~ has always had. Even when we were little kids, we went out into the world, not from places of cherishing and joy and security, but from mini versions of Hell.

Huh.

I never will have those things. But as it turns out, I never did have those good things. And, unless I was interacting with my family of origin, and I did just fine.

Beautifully.

:O)

Emphasis for me lately is on ferreting out where my thinking about myself has been twisted. The more we uncover about what has really been going on all along, the less not seeing them concerns me. I feel badly for myself now not so much because my family seems so intensely to dislike and disparage and victimize one another, but because I have spent uncounted hours and months and years trying to figure them and myself out. D H said, and I think I posted about it before, that he feels badly for me too, and for the same reason. He said he wonders what I might have done with all those hours I have given over to them, and to trying to unravel and put myself right.

I hope they never call.

When the call comes for my mother, or if I should die first, or D H...there is no one to call. There is no one in my family I would, nor should I, feel safe enough to trust with either my grief, or with the vulnerability I will feel in that time.

It is better, to know.

I wish I had known, sooner.

I am less and less angry with them or myself. I am still working hard here, but they (the members of my family of origin) are secondary to figuring out how to address the woundings and learn how to think about myself and my kids (!) (that is a definite ouch) and my D H and my whole life really, differently.

So that's good, then.

One of the things I am seeing through the work we do here is that I was, after all, a good enough mom. For sure, there would have been huge differences if I had been stronger...but I wasn't. I really did do the best I knew or could learn. I will be able to do better, now. I was shocked to realize the way I was seeing my son...but how wonderful to have seen it. The shame I felt over everything that happened fed on that core of shame I was already carrying. Had these things never happened to all of us, the core shame would have meant less and less. It was already beginning to dissipate. We were happy, all of us together. We had D H family, D H mom. (Yay!) The difference in the way I see now is that good things and troubling things come to all of us.

It never was that I had harmed my children in some way I could not see. I get it that I will have transmitted so many terrible images of shame and grandiosity and other terrible stuff without meaning to. Healing now will change how we interact with one another, now.

And that will change the future.

And I am so happy to know these things we have learned. Pretty much, that would be that we are all fine, just as we are.

There is nothing, nothing at all, that I have to do but be present.

How extraordinary.

***

This is what D H means when he says: "Your mom hung up on you. She could have addressed that at any time. She chose not to." What he is telling me is to hold strong. Returning to the fold would be exactly that: buying in to the overweening grandiosity of my mother compounded now, it seems, by my walking-with-the Lord sister's own grandiosity. Maybe part of my role was to be the guy who could believe we were all nice people.

I think less about the hurt of it, now. I feel shame still, but I think the truth of how I feel about them is that they scare me.

They do scare me.

Now, we know why.

Dissonance.

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Here is the thing we know now, about dissonance. We sit with it. Recognize and name it for what it is, and just let it be. In the past, that was the place of self-betrayal.

It begins with dissonance, with levels of it.

So, that is a good, good thing for us to know. We can examine the roles as they come up and choose to stay present to the feelings that we now recognize as dissonance in one of its many rotten little incarnations.

:O)

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
our mothers still cannot see their children as other than externalized extensions of themselves.
Yes.
I think they do not question what they feel for us even to this day, because they already "know"
Yes.
when I visited my mom that day with my granddaughters, she pretended she was going to hit me. There had to have been an experience of dissonance for her that she resolved by finding the child I was in the grandmother
In this sense, even though my mother almost a year before her death was already impaired mentally, she "knew" me to be her little worker and put me in that place.
The dissonance was resolved by putting the adult me in my place: you are still what I say you are.
I am thinking about the exchange with Modesta in this way. I just got in the way of whatever family drama she is playing out in her life.
Not who: what.
Yes. Chilling. And that is what Modesta tried to make me. I chose to accept instead of sitting with the dissonance. In that moment I bought into "thingness" instead of who I am, because I have been trained to obey the call (when I am vulnerable.)
My default position has been a role.

A very unpleasant place to be. A place that leads, without exception, to some degree of "automaton".
Yes.
Though she looks so different, now that we are adults, the older, frailer mother insists she is still the abusive monster mother that scared us half to death when we were little kids.
I am thinking too of my mother in the board and care. She became that person and she would not stop until she was out of there. I was terrified.
We do that because, on so many levels of self, we are still scared silly of the monster
Yes.
"If Cedar does not want to be part of this family, then this family wants no part of her."
Because Monster Mother makes the rules of the family. "France is me and I am France." (Or something like that.)
This is what D H means when he says: "Your mom hung up on you. She could have addressed that at any time. She chose not to."
Yes. Like when my mother stole my inheritance. She could have called. She chose what she chose.

As a consequence, I could not accept her world for me.
Maybe part of my role was to be the guy who could believe we were all nice people.
I think my role was I believed in love and responsibility.

That must be why I was stunned by Modesta.
Here is the thing we know now, about dissonance. We sit with it.
Yes.

I reacted so rapidly to Modesta.I do not know how I can define such an intense shame and powerlessness quickly enough to stop myself.

It is interesting too, to see my son's phone calls in this light. Because I know they are coming. Because I have now a mental map of what they will be and can be...It is premeditated. Therefore, I can sit with my feelings, and let him be without inserting myself into a space I have ceded to him. Yielded.

That is why I must be so exhausted after the calls.
There is no space to be me.

The difference is that he is my son. I love him. The difference is that while he can be mean, it is not primary in him. He must do it to me when he feels engulfed.

The difference is that he too is trying to carve out an autonomous space in life away from his Mother.

There was one more "the difference" but I forgot it.

Extremely clear and lovely elucidation, detailing and restatement of where we have been and where we are going.

I am having here this question: What I call the lock and key is what you describe as being called into our role...and responding with "fog" or cognitive dissonance. Our reactions become automatic. When we are unlocked by the key of somebody else's beckoning to us. Which we remember unconsciously and begin to function from an automatic place.

I am recalling those movies where the hero has been hypnotized (nowadays there is a chip or sometimes) to be triggered by specific words...in circumstances he does not know or anticipate... to begin to execute an action about which he is unaware...indeed unconscious of...to which he does not give consent...nor feel responsible for.

I believe this is the insidiousness of my reaction to my son...as he became hostile and demeaning to me.

I believe this is what happened to me with Modesta.

The question I have is this: I am prepared now with my son...How could I have been prepared to see it with her?

Thank you, Cedar.

COPA
 
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