Inappropriate touching among siblings

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I agree with Susie to make the first call. The minute we learned that our adopted and obviously highly disturbed son was a perp and had acted out on the younger two kids we called CPS. And we were out of town, not even home, but we knew that if you make that first call they will help you more and see you as a victim who is worthy of help. If you try to hide it, they'll find out, probably from a stranger who the child perped on (they don't just perp one time at age twelve) and then you're in danger of losing all the kids or even facing criminal charges. As soon as Perp was gone, my other kids started spilling their war stories and it was horrific. At first they had said, "He did it once." Then "He did it about three times." Then "He made XXX act out on me with a knife to his throat." It got worse and worse. He'd been doing it for three years, threatening to kill everyone if they told, so they didn't and maybe stupidly we didn't know. At any rate, save yourself a lot of added grief and call CPS yourself. (((Hugs)))
 

OpenWindow

Active Member
Thank you all for our replies.

I talked to her last night. She's 8. She was very embarrassed while telling us what happened right when it happened and was very hard to understand. We got the impression that he pulled her shorts down in the pool and touched her. She said last night that's not what happened. This is what she said: He told her to pull her pants down and she said no. That's when he threatened her with the lesbian comment, and told her if she didn't do it or if she told he would tell everyone she was a lesbian. He put his arms around her and his hands were on her back, on top of her shorts. He was getting ready to pull her shorts down when we interrupted them. She said he rubbed her back by her shorts.

What we got out of her when it first happened was her pointing down in the direction of her "privates", her saying he told her to pull her shorts down, and him rubbing her. It was one word or two word answers. I remember asking if he touched her privates and she said yes, but last night she said she meant her butt.

She was less embarrassed talking about it last night so does that mean the story is more clear or she is changing the story to make it more bearable? She still says it was the only time - I'm the first one to think the worst but I think she is telling the truth. Maybe it's wishful thinking, maybe not.

I've emailed the counselor to talk to her as soon as possible instead of waiting until after she talks to difficult child.

difficult child has been threatening her for a while now, which we are dealing with, but I believe this is the only time it went to this level. difficult child has just turned 12 - but definitely a lot less mature than most 12 year olds. He has had a really hard time handling the talk the other boys throw at him, and he is trying really hard to fit in. Anytime someone says a bad word he makes a huge deal out of it. Whenever there is talk of girlfriends, hot girls, etc, he makes a huge deal out of it. I really believe he just doesn't know how to handle it. He's very confused. I'm not trying to justify, just trying to understand him and his motives so we can help him.

husband is the one who doesn't want to get anyone involved. He is the king of denial. He thinks I'm overreacting because I grew up in an abusive home. Which is a little ironic because I come here and get beat upon for not acting fast enough.

I don't think not going to CPS will tell him it's OK. No matter what we do now, he knows it's not OK. I think not telling his counselor, and not making him admit it, and letting him have the freedoms he had before, will tell him he can get away with it. I think if we just dropped it and didn't deal with it in counseling, that would tell him he could get away with it again. If after talking with his counselor we think there's more to it than this incident, we'll take the next step. I really trust his counselor, and I am preparing myself for what will very possibly come. Even if someone else called CPS right now, I'm not worried about ramifications of not reporting because we are taking steps to find out what happened, and to make sure it doesn't happen again, and they are both getting professional help.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
If this boy has Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified, he may NOT understand. Is he getting helped for his autism? After reading more, it may help if he sees a counselor who understands how to talk to autistic kids. My son is on the high end of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), but he also doesn't "get" a lot of things. And he needs to be communicated with sometimes in very different ways than normal therapy.
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
Well, while he may be immature socially, you can't stop the hormone train. Twelve year old boys are pretty aware of their changing bodies, and what makes them feel good. They also have a very good idea that feeling good with a girl is supposed to be even better.

It feels a lot like you should stop talking to the girl. She is probably reformulating her story to ease your concerns.

Also, while the boy may try this on someone else, and may not, it is very likely that the girl will tell someone else, who will report it. Then you will really be in trouble. I can not advise you strongly enough to make sure that if the therapist doesn't report this, that you do. And if the therapist does report it, you need to be wholeheartedly behind this. CPS is only interested in the safety of the children. If they get so much as an inkling that you repeatedly interviewed the girl and only sent the boy to a therapist, and tried to hide this from them, they will view this as inappropriate parenting of your daughter and you will be in danger of losing her.

Sorry. This is a big mess, I know. But it's one you have to face straight on.
 

OpenWindow

Active Member
I agree with both of you. He doesn't understand, but he is definitely going through puberty and has the hormones of a 12-yr-old. At least 4 psychiatrists/psychologists have said Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified is a possibility, although none will say for sure. So getting him treatment for autism has been hard. His current counselor treats him as if he has Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), although she's not an expert. Her company works through the schools and at the schools, so she deals with kids with all sorts of issues including disorders, family issues, etc.

I also think I should stop talking to her about it. The counselor wanted me to find out if it was over the clothes or under, so I had to talk one more time. She may be reformulating, or just talking more clearly, I really can't be sure. She seemed truthful and matter-of-fact, she didn't seem like she was trying to think through what to say, but I'm not an expert.

I'm not concerned about her telling someone else. In fact I've told her that she doesn't need to feel like she can't talk to anyone about it or that it's a big secret. I know from experience that's one of the worst possible things I could do to her. If the counselor reports it, we are going to report it together. I will be very open with them if it happens, but husband may be another story, and things may be worse (with him) if it was me that did the reporting.

I haven't repeatedly interviewed her and not him... I've talked to him about it over and over but he refuses to admit it so it's hard to really get anywhere. We have put a lot of pressure on him to tell the truth but nothing has worked. I've talked to her three times about the details of what happened. They are both going to talk to the counselor, so I'm she is getting outside help.

Things were going so good with difficult child this year. His best year ever, no suspensions from school, all As. He's controlling his temper so much better. While he's not making friends, he is getting along with his brother's friends very well. We were all very optimistic. Then everything comes crashing down again, and this problem is worse than anything before.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
My friend has a son with Aspergers. He inappropriately touched a girl he thought was "pretty." Now this is a very high functioning teen, but he STILL has Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). My friend was VERY lucky as the girl was quite understanding, and explained to this teen, in detail, why he had to ask before he touched anybody. It was far more of an ordeal for him to "get it" than your average "typical" kid.
I would push for that Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified diagnosis. If a lot of professionals are seeing it, but won't say it, well, somebody needs to say it so that he can get help. If he is on the spectrum at all, he isn't going to learn appropriate behavior the way other kids do. Now, there could be more to it--he may have been molested himself and is copying what he was shown.
I would personally take him to somebody who understands Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids. Even if he has Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified (undiagnosed or otherwise) you can all still get into serious trouble if this continues. And you may yet find out that this wasn't the first time he acted out (or tried to) on either your daughter or on another child. Please don't wait.
 

OpenWindow

Active Member
I'm hoping this is the only incident but I know there could be more. And I'm hoping he was never a victim, but I know that's a possibility too. I wish he would just talk to us, but he won't.

I made a few phone calls yesterday and today and now he is on the list to get a neuropscyh evaluation in July. They are supposed to call me back with a date. The only thing that could go wrong is if it's not covered by our insurance, which they are checking into now. They do all kinds of testing there and have doctors there who specialize in asperger's and Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), so maybe we will get somewhere.

I tried for 5 years in St. Louis and was never able to get a neuropsychologist evaluation. I took him to an autism clinic and they tested him but said it was inconclusive, but they suspected Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified. I tried again when I first moved and kept running into roadblocks. Yesterday I just kept calling different hospitals and clinics, and found this place.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
A few things to bear in mind:

If he is Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) not otherwise specified (or close enough to it to even be considered for a diagnosis) then this unfortunately greatly increases his vulnerability to having been abused. Predators seem to have an instinct for finding vulnerable kids who are least able to understand or report accurately (or believably) and hence will be more likely to help the predator avoid detection. Is this has happened it MAY have contributed to this behaviour.

The boy's approach in using threats - he could be modelling what was used on him. A Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid generally isn't good at inventing this sort of thing for himself, they're not good at telling complex lies. Instead, they tend to stick with, "I didn't do it," rather than, "What really happened was this: she did X, then I did Y, she said G, I then replied with Q." And so on. They generally just can't do it well enough to be believable. So if he is Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) in any way, my money is on him having been somewhat nastily abused (in terms of the level of control and threats used) and him now using it to get what HE wants, and also because he thinks this is how it's supposed to be.

If this is what has happened, then counselling (carefully) preferably AFTER confirmation of PDDNOS so it can be taken into account, should be much more productive than is usual in cases of children sexually attacking other children. I could explain why but I don't think I need to, I'm sure you know why. Any counselling before diagnosis should be limited to "what has happened to you?" with maybe discussion tat if it ever did, it's OK to tell because whoever tried to make you kept such a secret told you lies and did the wrong thing. He needs to know he doesn't have to say who did it, it is more important to tell what happened (at least to begin with) so he can begin to understand his feelings about it.

And an example - in difficult child 3's drama class there is a really lovely young man, VERY handsome. He's currently on new medication regime which at last seems to be helping him and has lowered his anxiety, but for the past two years he has been fixated on wanting a girlfriend and wanting one NOW. And she has to be perfect, absolutely knockout gorgeous, and NORMAL, not severe Asperger's like him. He sees a girl, mets her for the first time (maybe the sister of a classmate, arrived with parents to collect the kids) and he's instantly in love which of course is generally unrequited because
a) girls like that generally already have boyfriends, fiances or even husbands; and
b) he comes on so strong it's scary.

He then goes off in hysterics because life is not worth living, nobody loves him, SHE doesn't love him, he might as well kill himself. And he might have only met her five minutes earlier! But the crying sessions would last for weeks or longer.

I don't think he was ever inappropriate, but he is always closely supervised.

Meanwhile there are girls in his social group who sigh after him (he IS very handsome - and funny, and bright, and loving to his mother) but he's not interested in THEM. He knows them, knows their imperfections (because we all have imperfections). One young girl in particular is very pretty, very bright and very Aspie. And she likes him; he likes her, as a friend.

As I said, I don't see difficult child 3's classmate as a sexual predator, but he COULD be seen that way very easily if he's misunderstood. It would also be easy for him to act inappropriately without fully understanding just how serious it is.

Counselling hasn't worked for our young friend; he's too obsessed. However, helping his anxiety reduce has made it easier for him to cope and I think NOW counselling is beginning to work.

If your young man is like our friend, it won't be easy to get through to him. Different methods will need to be used if he's really Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), I would be hunting out a counsellor experienced with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD).

Also, when I say "counsellor" I am referring to a trained psychologist or similar, whose job it is to support these kids, provide emotional therapy etc. You might call them a therapist or psychiatrist. Semantics, plus different methods in different countries.

Do what you feel fits best in your area. But be prepared to have to think outside the square, to get the best results.

I hope you can sift through this mess without too much more muck getting in the way. Nobody should have to deal with this, but we do not live in a perfect world.

Marg
 

OpenWindow

Active Member
Thank you Marg - hopefully the neuropsychologist evaluation will work out and we can go from there. The place that does the evaluations has a couple of psychologists that are experienced with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) and Asperger's.
 

Holliewho

New Member
I know this is late... but I do know that the if a child is exposed to this by another child and they are already trying to fit in they may feel this is another way to fit in.

I also know that if the girl is that yound and knows the boy has problems (or Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified) she may be trying to protect him. Even at 8 she knows the older is protected because of his Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)/not otherwise specified so she will protect him too. So unfortunately for you she may have changed her story because she has picked up on your stress in this issue. So my advice is that you need to not talk to her about it anymore. Let the counselor explain to her what the issues are and what could happen but that they may not come but that you honestly need the truth.

She knows that at home the husband is in denial and she knows your ultra sensitive. So to be honest neither of you are good candidates to ask. Definitely though she needs therapy. Even if its just one or two meetings. My niece had this happen but it was a boy next door. The police were called in and it spun all the way out of control. Her mom is in denial and now she is 15 and on the pill sleeping around and failing Special Education classes and not showing up for school etc. My brother in law has his own issues so he just follows his wife's lead. He is not her father and feels like he doesnt have a say. Anyways I have also been on this end and because I was afraid of speaking up I think I have issues in that area now. Just ask my hubby... well maybe not... he wont talk because he isnt one to kiss and tell but I know its there.
 

OpenWindow

Active Member
Thanks Hollie. difficult child's counselor told me there are two kinds of sexual abusers and she thinks he falls into the socially awkward category. He has no success with girls his own age in any capacity so he tries with someone much younger. Very inappropriate but more hope for him to get past this and not do it again than the other type.

I've stopped talking with my daughter about it and we're letting the counselor deal with it. We're still not sure whether she changed her story or was just very unclear and we read too much into it the first time. It would help so much if difficult child would just tell us the truth. He's talking to the counselor today but I'm not hopeful the truth will be known anytime soon, if at all.
 

OpenWindow

Active Member
The counselor has talked to everyone now and she has reported the incident to DCFS. She is convinced, as am I, that this was an isolated incident, but we think he needs more counseling with an expert and in order for that to happen, it had to be reported. She says they'll be calling within 24 hours. My heart is pounding and I'm really hoping this is the right thing to do.

husband is really really mad about the whole thing and told me I handled it all wrong, said I overreacted because of my past and that this could really mess up difficult child's life.
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
Well, I hope that husband will get his head out of the sand. Hiding this type of thing never helped anyone. Getting help to make sure that no one gets hurt again is the right thing to do. Not only would a future victim be harmed by difficult child if he did this again, difficult child himself would be harmed by his own actions. It has to stop and it's something they both have to come to their own terms with.

I hope that the Social Worker will set husband straight. You don't deserve to be punished for taking care of your children when they needed you most.
 
Top