Is it ever ok to just be "done?"

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by TheWalrus, May 5, 2016.

  1. TheWalrus

    TheWalrus I Am The Walrus

    I am a forgive and forgive person - until someone repeatedly hurts me or my family in the same ways. When I determine it is not a mistake or accident, when I come to the conclusion that this is just how this person is and how they will always behave toward me, I am done. Forever like you never existed done. Yes, I realize this is probably a character flaw. It is not a feeling of hate or anger but complete apathy and disinterest in that person.

    I am at that point with my daughter. She has for many years purposely lied, manipulated, embarrassed, shamed, and deceived me. She has emotionally blackmailed me, spread vicious lies about me, blamed me for every mistake she has ever made, made me feel guilty and obligated and has purposely sought out opportunities to try to ruin my name and reputation.

    After spending more money than I can afford and time from my job than I needed to in order to be by her side after her accident, months of my life on hold to try to "save" her and get her back on a good path, any path better than the one she was on, she has again began her campaign of "Mom hate and shame." And I truly feel done.

    I feel nothing, and I mean nothing, for her. I don't want to see or talk to her. I don't care where she is, who she is with or what she is doing. If she called or texted, I think I would just utter the word no and hang up. And even if by some miraculous divine intervention, she suddenly changed and got better and made amends, I could never believe it, believe her, or forget all she has done. I will forever expect this from her because she has shown me for years this is WHO she is and WHAT she does. She is a user and abuser and I am done.

    I am sure there is a special spot in hell for a mother like me, but it is a different kind of hell having a child like her.
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  2. DarkwingPsyduck

    DarkwingPsyduck Active Member

    I don't see it as a character flaw... As a matter of fact, if all of that didn't hurt you deeply, I'd call that a character flaw. Forgiveness should never be given. It should be earned. And every time that forgiveness is betrayed, it should be even harder to earn back. You cannot truly forgive somebody who is not sorry. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like your daughter is at all sorry. Do you just go around offering forgiveness to everybody who isn't sorry? Sorry is only a word. Supposed to be a promise not to do whatever you are apologizing for. It isn't so much the word, but the actions that follow the word. When she is truly sorry, you will know. Only then should you consider forgiveness.
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  3. DarkwingPsyduck

    DarkwingPsyduck Active Member

    You are NOT a bad mother for that. This is a result of HER actions, not yours. Nobody held a gun to her head and forced her to lie, steal, or manipulate you. She did it all on her own. Bad decisions they were, but they were HER decisions. You aren't a door mat, or a punching bag. When somebody is actively trying to cause you pain, be it emotional or physical, you don't just stand there and take it again and again. You take steps to protect yourself. The steps you have chosen are entirely reasonable. If it is contact that allows her to do this to you, it is contact that should be cut off.
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  4. so ready to live

    so ready to live Active Member

    Hi Walrus.
    This is how my husband feels, he says it kind of worries him that he feels absolutely nothing. But it works for him for now, it keeps his resolve strong to not ride the roller coaster.

    No, you surely won't forget BUT "never" is a long time, none of us know what/who may change tomorrow on any front. People do grow and change, no-it may not happen for her but if it does (shown by repeated actions over a long period of time) you may feel differently. I hope that for you. I'm always encouraged here when one of our kids makes it, I mostly don't expect it will ever be mine, but I hang on to that kernel of hope for all of us.

    I'd have to think about this one, a person forgives for themselves, their own mental health. The person who needs to be forgiven many times is unwilling or unaware. Probably many of our D_C's just don't realize or care of our pain. But for me accepting "It is what it is" can be a form of forgiveness. To simply just let it go so it doesn't eat us up inside. Maybe I'm not differentiating acceptance and forgiveness.
    ...that all being someone who has not heard from her son for 6 wks., I feel ok with just being done. Could we "just be done" together? Prayers.
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  5. Scent of Cedar *

    Scent of Cedar * Well-Known Member

    Then there is a spot for me too, Walrus.

    But here is an interesting thing. When my thinking about what it meant to be a good mother changed, the way my kids thought about me and themselves changed, too. Part of my thinking had to do with exactly what you posted: " is a different kind of hell having a child like her."

    And that was true for me, too. Our kids are different. Who knows why. When what we are doing is not helping, then as responsible mothers, we have to do something differently. We cannot, for the life of us, seem to help our kids get off the paths they seem determined to take. But we can change our own paths. We can learn about how helping can somehow turn into enabling ~ which is what happened in my family, bigtime. Everything had become so ugly. I felt foolish for believing the kids just somehow found themselves, time and again, in places that required enormous help from us. But somehow, that seemed always to be the situation we found ourselves in. How could I not help, and still believe I was the mother I wanted to be? But for my kids, and who knows how we got there or who was wrong or right, I needed to become that mother who does not help.

    I needed to do that.

    Nothing else was helping any of us.

    We were a mess.

    So, I learned (here) about the circle of enabling. That helped me to change how I saw what was happening to all of us. And that changed way of seeing helped me to change my responses. Not just how I responded to the kids, but how I saw the kids, and how I saw myself. It was very hard for me. I wanted to be the good mom, the best mom ever. But what I learned is that I had to be the mother the kids needed. And not the mother I needed to be.


    But that was a thing I could do. A pattern I could change.

    So I did.

    And things are better.

    I read somewhere that we should not write the end of the story. The only thing I know for sure is that if we believe the kids can do it, they do it, somehow. This makes them stronger, and gives them a sense of pride in themselves. It changes the dynamic where, if the story is only bad enough, we give them money or bring them home or take their children or whatever it is. And somehow, the story always got bad enough.

    It was awful.

    Learning to see what was happening to us in that way was the thing that helped me change how I was looking at my mothering.

    In a way, what I was teaching my children was that they were beggars. Or, victims. When I should have said, "I'm sorry that happened. You are bright and strong and I know you will handle it." I was saying, "Oh you poor thing. You could never possibly handle the situation. Prove to me it's not your fault. I will help you."

    So, I stopped doing that.

    It was very hard.

    But my kids are taking charge of their own affairs, now. As that is happening, as they experience pride in themselves, their attitudes toward me are changing.

    We all are healthier, now.

    I did what I did out of love, but I was not helping my kids feel a sense of efficacy.

    I am glad I was able to learn about that pattern in our family.

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  6. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I wrote a long reply and my battery went dead and I lost it. Here is the summary.

    Before I say anything I want to say how sorry I am you are suffering this. I know you know this but I will say it again. You do not deserve this hell.

    Your feelings are the effect of her treatment of you.

    In the natural order of things it is the normal thing for parents and children to separate. Among animals, in so-called primitive societies, in traditional culture, it is the norm. My grandparents never again saw their parents or spoke to them. Millions of families, experienced the same. Because of opportunity, persecution, ambition, children leave and so do parents.

    When children are grown.

    We move heaven and earth for our babies. These are adults who are responsible for their behaviors and their consequences.

    To allow your daughter to hurt you would be wrong. For her. For you. To submit to that would be wrong.

    Feeling as you do I would separate now, before you reach the point of indifference and apathy. I would save yourself from that. That way each of you would have a place from which to begin again.
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  7. Tanya M

    Tanya M Living with an attitude of gratitude Staff Member

    Hi Walrus, I get it, I mean I really get it. You can only take so much before you go completely numb and feel nothing. I was there a few years back. I could have cared less if I ever heard from my son again. I truly believe we go into a "self preservation" mode.
    For me, enough time passed where I had no contact with my son. It was a little over a year. I completely shut him out. The only way he could reach me was via my cell phone or FB. He did text me a few times, I did not respond. He called a couple of times and I did not respond. I completely blocked him from FB.
    I really needed that time recharge myself. He was just so ugly, hateful and manipulative towards me and it sucked the life force right out of me.
    What changed was he called my husband and told him how sorry he was for all the ugly things he had said to me and understood if I never wanted to talk to him or see him again. He asked my husband to tell me this. Of course when husband told me this my response was "if his lips are moving, he's lying" but something in me softened. Each time my son would text or call he would have to borrow someone's phone and I knew that was not an easy thing for him to do. He has a Kindle tablet that he can access FB from whenever he has access to free wifi. I unblocked him from FB and within a few weeks he sent me a private message and that act told me that he must have kept checking to see if he was still blocked. His message was basically telling me he was sorry. Like you, I will forgive and I told him that but I did tell him just because I forgive you does not mean I will forget how you treated me.
    I came to realize that I do love my son but I do not like him and that's ok. I highly doubt that I will ever be able to trust my son. To be quite honest, I do not even know where he is and I don't want to know. He reached out to me a week or so ago, you know, same ole song and dance of "my life sucks, I've got no one" I replied that I was sorry to hear it and wished him well but I did not ask him where he was. I have learned to not ask any questions.
    My analogy of this is; it's like someone who has been severely burned over most of their body and they are left with horrible scars. The scar tissue has no feeling but the nerve endings that lie deep below the scars still do. You can still feel something but it's not the same. You might feel "itching" but when you scratch that "spot" you feel nothing.
    My son has left me completely scarred and those scars will never go away.
    I don't know if that makes sense to you but it does it my head.o_O

    I don't believe this for a minute.
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  8. TheWalrus

    TheWalrus I Am The Walrus

    I am damned if I do, damned if I don't. I have never enabled her. I have always set boundaries and conditions. When I agree to help and set conditions, I don't "trust or believe in her." When I agree to help as long as I see progress and stop when progress stops, I "judge her and don't love her as she is." When I refuse to help at all because I don't agree with what she is doing, I don't "support her decisions."

    When I try to have a relationship, she is hateful and vicious the second I don't say what she wants to hear or give in to her. When I don't, she does what she can to betray me or manipulate behind my back. Either way, the world gets the wicked mother story no matter what I do.

    I went to her because she almost died and there was no one else. She had burned all bridges. I am not the only one she does this way - she views people like Kleenex: use when needed and throw away. I am the one who has always eventually let her back in. I think that and being her mother is why I get it the most. If she were not my daughter, I would never tolerate her behavior from anyone else.

    I don't need to forgive her. How can you forgive someone for WHO they are? I accept this is her. I need to forgive myself for feeling nothing. At this moment, I could go the rest of my life and never speak to or hear of her again. I just feel done. I want nothing to do with her in any capacity. I am tired of the feelings she gives me whenever we have contact: fear, guilt, shame, obligation, embarrassment, hurt, frustration... I couldn't tell you the last positive emotion I felt or when. The mere mention of her drags up feelings of dread and, "What now?"
    I know people can change, but she gets progressively worse in her "changing," not better. At times, I feel in my heart she enjoys what she does, like it is a game and when she can "get one over" or "get one in" on someone, she feels she is winning. It is the most twisted thinking I have ever personally experienced. I know some people suck, but she is a vacuum.
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  9. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I believe there has always been varying degrees of separation and discord among families, especially here in this country which has a history of westward expansion and of immigration and tolerance of individualism, full-fettered expression of personal freedoms and individual rights. To say nothing of the distance made in families by job mobility and advancement. The rite of passage in upper middle class families, for example, of sending children to far away colleges or in upper class families sending their even younger children to boarding schools, creates the expectation of separation.

    I am thinking that our pain comes more from the sense of internalized failure and responsibility to which SWOT eloquently refers on another thread.

    So is that the reason why the idea of ending it all at once, appeals? To end the sense of personal failure? That what our adult kids knowingly or unconsciously do is push the Mommy button that should have been disabled, triggering our sense of responsibility and culpability if we either refuse or disregard. Is that it?

    But after all is said and done (and Walrus you have done it) what is there left to do? The detaching, staying neutral, getting a life--what then? If somebody will not stop? I think I would change my number, get off social media, and if need be, get a restraining order.

    Actually, I did a version of this. Well, I went so far as to not call or speak on the phone. I am proud of myself.

    And while I did not do this to exert control over my son, or to seek a result, it did seem to coincide with some positive changes.
  10. TheWalrus

    TheWalrus I Am The Walrus

    I think it is many things. Personal failure plays a role bc I just don't get it. She was not raised this way or around this. I am just so tired. When there is even a semblance of relationship, I bear the full load. Her interest in me goes as far as what she can get from me or what I will do for her. When I won't, she has no interest at all. It is like trying to play a tennis match with a partner who only holds the racquet. I put in all of the effort and get no return. If I even got glimpses of genuineness or honesty, moments of regret or apology, even a second of personal responsibility, I might feel the need to keep trying.

    But I am tired, so so tired, and I am just ready to lay it down. Perhaps only for now, perhaps not. That depends on her. It would take a lot of long term sustained and visible change and effort on her part and I don't think she ever will. A dirty secret? I thinks she hates me. I think she resents me. I feel it in her voice and see it in her eyes. I don't think she wants to hate me, but she does.

    I am sorry I emotionally vomited all over the forum. That is what it feels like and while it is messy and dirty, it feels better to have it out because in the real world, I have to keep it in. And holding it in just makes it grow.
  11. DarkwingPsyduck

    DarkwingPsyduck Active Member

    I think we have different ideas of forgiveness. When I am speaking about it, I mean it in a literal "I am sorry for what I did. Forgive me" way. When somebody forgives the murderer of a loved one, it is more about a sense of acceptance, and a refusal to allow that pain to keep festering, thus having negative impacts on your life. If somebody causes you pain, and repeatedly does things that seem to require forgiveness, you shouldn't forgive. Not until the words are backed up by action and real change.
  12. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    Sometimes, you HAVE to be done, for your own sanity and mental health. Sometimes it doesn't matter how someone was raised, or how hard you have worked toward a better relationship. Sometimes, you have to cut them off completely.

    It's not easy, and it will reverberate throughout you - "What did *I* do wrong?" But you have to reply to that small (loud) voice: "I did the best I could with what I knew at the time." And realize that you just cannot change some people.

    Pat - my stepson in fact but son in my heart - has always been helpful, sweet, loving... And about 18 months ago that ALL changed. I don't know what or why, just that it did. It hurts - but I can't change him. I do the best I can, with what I know and what I have... And I hope and pray a whole lot.

    You take care of YOU, and if that means you're done, no one can or should judge you for that.
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  13. DarkwingPsyduck

    DarkwingPsyduck Active Member

    Granted, I am not a parent, but being a parent cannot mean being a complete door mat who no longer deserves respect and common decency. If anything, it means you deserve MORE respect and to be treated as such. You don't just lose your right to be safe and happy. If your child insists on causing you pain through hurtful words and slander, you aren't required to take it with a smile.
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  14. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    When somebody, anybody, is repeatedly mean to us, it is normal to numb out.

    When I was still young and believed conquered all, my ex and I adopted a lovely, brilliant six year old boy from an asian orphanage. I loved him as if he had been our birthchild, the same as we loved our.other kids.

    Until he met his now wife, who comes from his country, he was nice to all of it, but was always a bit detached and very robotic in demeaner although he alllways got straifgt As in school, was a good athlete and had tons of friends. Once he met his very beautiful and uber religious wife to be, he changed. As she wanted him all to hersrlf and he went along with it. He was 28 when I lost him.

    I have found a very good site with stories and support for estranged parents. More than any other time when the estrangement began, trumping even drug use was meeting a partner who the parents could not them. Often the sweetie put the idea that these loved adult kids were abused into their heads and many parents on that site have not seen their kids for 5-10 years. Some dont know where they live or if they have grands. Doesn't matter. The grands are told they were abusive.

    My lovely brilliant handsome son who now owns his own million dollar plus business refuses to talk to anybody but my ex, and he isn't generous with his time to ex either. Nobody else has seen him for TEN years. I tried many ways, but he was horrible each time and she stood beside him with a hard, unforgiving face that told me she hated me although she never even talked to me. He wont see me without her.i have never seen his kids. I remember my love for him, but my heart was so broken I no longer feel that love, think much about him and he can never come back. I will not risk my heart again...if he did it once for so long he can do it again. Not that he will ask to come back. He wont. And that makes it easy. My other kids all loathe him for what he did and sonic and jumper are so much younger than him they barely remember him.

    I don't hsve much money right now and he does, but he always wants more. Ex has money, which is why he at least keeps in touch with ex. I will eventually inherit, possibly a lot, from my father. I will give it to my kids. That child, gone ten years by his choice, us no longer my kid. I have four kids. I used to have five. He no longer is. And I dont feel like I'm going to hell or a bad mother.

    We are human beings. We would fall out of love with a husband who abused us the way some of our kids do. It takes much longer to lose the glowing love for a child, and we may never completely not love them, but to me it makes sense that our feelings towards them can feel dull, flat and tired of how we are treated. And WE did not cause these feelings to wane and go.flat. WE tried everything to make it better. I know I did and I know every single mother here did. But they wear our emotions down until we can feel dead inside. I feel it is a normal consequence when a child is knowingly and repeatedly abusive year after year. In my case, my other kids are loving and caring toward me and I could not change or love my absent child so I gradually lost my maternal glow for the missing one.
    JMO and how I feel about a man who was once a child very much in my life. He can no longer impact my life or emotions. I get it. No excuses.
    Last edited: May 5, 2016
  15. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    You are very, very hard on yourself, Walrus. This must change, I believe.
    Walrus, you may or may not have read some of my posts about my mother and our relationship over the years. There were decades we did not speak or see each other. When I thought about her (rarely) it was with indifference. Occasionally, I thought she might be dead, and I was indifferent. It was as if I had killed her off already in my head.

    When I adopted my son I reached out to my sister and renewed contact with my mother. For the last 23 years of my mother's life we had contact, largely by phone. And still there was a year or so long period without contact. I refused to allow her to reject or mistreat me. I did it right back.

    So, I have a dirty little secret too. That I kept from myself and everybody else all those years. I loved her with all of my heart and soul. As she was dying I fell in love with her and all of the feeling I had buried most of my life came out and the person I was drowned in it.

    I have not been the same person. That person died. I realize now I constructed that person based as much upon a lie as any truth.
    As I read your posts I strongly identify with you and your pain. I heartily endorse your desire both to protect yourself and your daughter by taking the high road.

    Even though what I did cost me what it cost, I did not and do not still see another road that I could have taken. In any relationship with my mother or my sister I was the sacrificial lamb. It was not just that they set it up that way (they did). I was built that way, too. As If I am in my interior a gum drop machine or a mechanical pony outside a market. I sign to have an on switch, and I operate on command.

    So at the end of the day I had suppressed the greatest of love for my mother, in order to live a moderately normal life.
    The thing is you really do not know what is going on inside of her or can go on inside of her because she does not know.

    My son is older, 27. Last night he came home from a walk in tears. He said: Mom, for the first time in my life I did evil. What?

    A 22 year girl had broken into where he was staying in order to take a nap. (Not the best neighborhood and the girl was homeless.) He called the cops and he pressed charges.

    Mom, you and M wouldn't have pressed charges. I know you wouldn't.

    You do not know what we would have done. You might well have helped the girl to know there are consequences to her poor choices.

    He is showing some of the compassion and caring that I had thought was long gone. I am grateful for it.
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  16. rebelson

    rebelson Active Member

    Tuesday night I attended my 1st Nar-Anon mtg. There was a woman there whose mid 20-something son is a heroin addict.

    I admired her strength, resolve re: her addict. It was not put-on either, I cld feel her detachment from across the room. She said she "was done with him", for now. Until he stops.

    I am far, far from where she is. But I am not too hard on myself. I am only ~2 months in to this detachment thing.

    My son has said wicked things to me also, usually when drunk or on a benzo. Then the next call he acts like nothing.

    His psychologist told me that by accepting that treatment of me, he is not learning that it is wrong. I did not see that side effect of it, but now I do.

    This particular mother at Nar-Anon the other night, said something that really got me thinking.

    She said: "I have heard more than once that when the MOTHER (not father) COMPLETELY detaches, that often that can be a big 'eye-opener' for the addict."
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  17. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I think the idea of forgiveness is really not the point here except with respect to self-forgiveness, which I believe is the point.

    Every single thing she says about you is ludicrous. Nobody would ever believe it who was not already motivated to think badly about us, for some reason or another.

    I have realized that a lot of parents suffer with their kids. It seems to be all too common to try to think the next Mom is worse than I am, and heap on. These people need to be disregarded and hopefully distanced. You know this. I know this. People are not all that nice usually. Forgive yourself.
    Walrus, I believe you would tell me that this is my fear, guilt, shame, hurt, embarrassment. That there has to be an openness to being triggered so as to feel this way.

    You seem to be pretty well-defended with every other person accept her. Why? Because she is your child and you are her mother. I believe evolution must have prepared us for this utterly painful dynamic that seems to have run amok for each of us.
    I am repeating myself here. When is enough to give ourselves permission to protect ourselves.

    We feel it as abandoning them. It is not. It is moving aside to as not to be battered. It is OK to decide to not be battered. Is it not?
    I believe she well may. But that does not mean she always will nor does it mean that she truly now has the where with all to truly understand what she is doing. TL has a thread now questioning if they, our kids, really understand what they put us through. I do not believe they do.

    But still. This does not mean we must submit. Your daughter is doing anything and everything in her power to hurt you. Why? We do not know. You know you are not the only one. Is it or is it not a reasonable thing to remove yourself from this hurt?
  18. TheWalrus

    TheWalrus I Am The Walrus

    I think we are, too. I feel no need inside of me to "forgive" her for who she is. I don't have any feelings of anger or spite. But in your "literal" meaning, no, she has never apologized or even shown a change of behavior that wasn't temporary and motivated by something to gain. In that way, yes, I have not forgiven her - and cannot at this point "risking" (as SWOT put it) a relationship because I don't believe she is sorry for her actions and therefore, she will continue in her pattern.

    That is what it is - falling "out of love." I will always love that spunky two year old and brilliant 10 year old, but the girl I knew is gone. Through a combination of bad choices, bad influences, drugs...she is gone. It is aptly called "estrangement" because it feels so strange, so alien, to not have that overwhelming love for her and need for her in my life that I once did.

    Every. Single. Time. She will wipe her feet all over me, disregard me and have no contact with me for months and months, and saunter back in acting like nothing happened and she just talked to me yesterday - always when she needs something. She has always been the one to cut off contact, walk away until she wants something, even if it is just to sting me with her venom. This is the first time that I can honestly say that if, when, she contacts me that I don't want it. Normally, it would send me into a, "How do I react?" feeling. This time, I don't want to react. I don't want the contact, whenever or however it comes.

    No one who knows me believes a word and her "friends" are all people who have never met me - so she can spin any fairytale she pleases. It is just so foreign to me to do that to anyone, much less family, your mother. I do not understand anyone who feels the need to blame others for their lives or situations.

    She abandoned our relationship a long time ago. I don't know if it is the actual realization of that, or that I am finally allowing myself to say "ok" and stop fighting it. I just never thought it would feel so...nothing.
  19. DarkwingPsyduck

    DarkwingPsyduck Active Member

    Well, again, I don't think protecting yourself makes you a bad person or a bad parent. I've seen all kinds of bad parents. Some of the worst parents are the ones that repeatedly allow their children to walk all over them. That is not a healthy parent/offspring relationship for either party. You did your job. You carried her for 9 months, you birthed her, you fed, clothed, and educated her. You loved her, you have forgiven transgressions. But enough is enough. I am probably a little biased, having lost my own mother, but one thing that never fails to piss me off is people who disrespect their mothers. It's just wrong.
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  20. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Walrus....welcome to borderline personality disorder. In the past, many psychiatrists wouldn't accept borderline patients because they are SOOOOO difficult. The way they treat us is the way they treat therapists. They call non-stop. They threaten suicide (to assure a callback). They argue. Many cut themselves and abuse substances and therapy and medications dont change them. Sometimes they improve in middle age. Nobody knows why. Often they stay this way.

    It was once believed that borderlines couldn't change, but there is treatment now for those who acknowledge they have borderline and are willing to work extremely hard. Regular therapy has never helped borderlines. A new type of therapy called Dialectal Behavioral Therapy is the first type that has transformed very dedicated borderlines who are tired of living with constantly shifting moods, horrible relationships, rage, dysfunctional kids, legal trouble and hatred. Many borderlines now do admit they have this and get into DBT Therapy.

    Unless your daughter decides to get this help, you are going to see borderline instability and abuse. Borderlines do not change due to circumstance. They need to learn text book style how to control their moods that change minute to minute. It is far more out there than bipolar disorder, although it is often misdiagnosed as bipolar. Or comorbid with.

    I learned a lot about borderline.If you want to know more about it, I reccomend going to a site called Borderline Central. Lots of info and parents of borderlines there. Tons. Great site, great support.

    I feel really bad for you and hope for daughter to decide to make this drasic change. Its there for her. Hugs!!!
    Last edited: May 5, 2016