Is there a silver lining?

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by FTN, Nov 25, 2008.

  1. FTN

    FTN New Member

    After numerous delays and three prosecutors, we finally went to court last week. difficult child took the stand and described in detail how a neighborhood boy raped and molested her. The judge ruled two days later in favor of the defendant. It seemed the crux of the case was that her counselor believed that some physical and sexual abuse came from her father and not entirely the defendant. Wonderful.

    Around noon last Friday I heard loud smashing and banging sounds coming from the living room. Turns out difficult child had early dismissal that day due to conferences at school. She had just gotten home and was throwing her backpack and flute case around while lifting the loveseat to let it slam down. She kicks the flute case into the dining room table. I tell her to calm down then ask whats wrong. She wouldn't say a word to me after multiple attempts. So I take the flute from the ground and began to walk off with it. difficult child then pushes me and grabbed the flute from me in a moment of disbelief. Oh yeah, this is also just a few hours before she goes to pedo-dad's for the weekend.

    Then there was another incident picking her up on Sunday. Unfortunately I had to work so I couldn't go with so it was just SO and easy child #2. Liz (pedo-dad's new wife) came out to them about Thanksgiving. Mind you, the only form of contact they're supposed to have with us is through email. She said that they were entitled to have difficult child for Thanksgiving and Christmas this year according to the parenting plan. SO asked her if she could provide us with a copy of the parenting plan as SO didn't have one on hand to view. She then went into the house to get it but returned shortly after without it. She said her son was on the computer and would wait for him to get off.

    She told SO she will pickup difficult child on the 26th of November. SO told her no. She was visibly angry at this point and began yelling at SO from here on out. SO stated that 9 a.m. was fine on Thursday and that she could bring difficult child back on Friday the 28th at 9 a.m. Liz then threatened SO that she will call her attorney and take her back to court to change the parenting plan "so that we would not get what we wanted out of the parenting plan." SO asked why Liz felt it was her place to take control over everything telling me what was going to happen. SO asked her why she always addressed the parenting plan or about things regarding brett (pedophile, rapist, ex-husband) in front of her children. She became even more irrate saying that she can't talk on the phone as she doesn't have our number. They only contact they are approved to have with us is email or through difficult child in an emergency. She has our email and hasn't contacted us on the approved medium for almost six months. Liz then said it was her role to take control becase we refuse to speak with brett.

    easy child #2 spoke out and told Liz she has no idea of what he did to us, how much her hurt us and that is what we desire zero contact with him. Liz started to scream at easy child #2 about how she understood because her ex-husband was abusive toward her. As she was shouting at easy child #2 to shut her mouth, brett appeared at easy child #2's side of the car. easy child #2 jumped towards SO at the sight of him and began to cry. He screamed at easy child and SO three times that they were going to "fsck our worlds up." Liz then told him to go back in the house. SO mentioned to Liz this is why she fears for difficult child's safety while in his care. SO is scared of the threats he continues to make toward us. SO is still terrified of what he very may well do. SO questioned Liz towards the threats we just received and she said he made no such comment. Liz then said "Well, you know he has a short temper." This is all the more reason we fear for difficult child's safety. SO then demanded they bring difficult child to the car now so we could leave. Once again, she threatened us by saying she was going to take me to court.

    SO, easy child #2 and difficult child were all a mess on the ride home of course. difficult child yelled at them saying it was their fault. SO, in an emotional blur, told difficult child her father isn't a great man like she thinks. She began to tell her about the abuse she and her sisters received. difficult child said she didn't care and that he wouldn't do that to her and how he has changed.

    Plus difficult child outwardly expresses her dislike of being here. She has been telling various neighbors no one can pick her up and needs to stay there homes till 8 p.m. every night.

    So how do you deal with a child who is often violent and doesn't care that her father raped, molested and abused her mother and sisters?
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2008
  2. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    I'm offended by the continued use of "Pedo dad" to describe her biological father. He has been found not guilty in a court of law of abusing all of his daughters.

    If the order says that contact is to be limited to e-mail contact, that applies to all parties. Your SO should have told "Liz" to e-mail the Parent contact order to her.

    Unfortunately for your SO and easy child 2, your difficult child desires contact with her father. The continued antagonistic nature of your contacts with each other do not dissuade her from this, and may in fact make the contact more desirable to her as a "rescue figure" to her father.

    You let her know that she is loved and never make her defend anyone. Assure her that she is her own person and she doesn't have to pay for what may or may not have happened with her sisters. Obey the court order. Walk away when someone else violates it and make a quiet report of the violation outside of the presence of your difficult child. Most of all, get over it. These are their problems, not hers, and it's not fair to expect her to hate him for something he didn't do before she has any cognizant memories of anything anyway.

    I have a lot of experience in the legal and treatment field with families like your SO's. I wouldn't be at all surprised if your difficult child asks to live with her father based upon the constant hostility in your home towards her father. Any judge worth his salt would grant it in order to give her a more peaceful atmosphere to live and grow up in than she has in your home.

    Have you and your SO and her other daughters gotten the therapy we advised you to get? Are you continuing to allow the older girls to use their father's picture for target practice and to post the bullet riddled results on their bedroom doors? Maybe someone else here is comfortable with your home situation and can see it in a loving light. I can not. I am terrified for your difficult child that none of you can be adult enough to walk away from the arguing for her sake.
  3. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    FTN, until your SO decides to get the appropriate help for all her kids AND herself and you also willingly go for help, I'm afraid that there is no silver lining. I can't address the legal stuff. None of us can. We know nothing about this legal situation. All I know is you will be living in Court if you stay in this relationship. It is very unhealthy on all fronts and we don't know who is really to blame or what really has happened. To me it seems that all of the adults in this situation get off on drama and, in fact, inflame it and make it worse. I wouldn't be surprised if all the kids want to get away from all of you as soon as they can.
    One thing is clear: SO is not doing her job as a parent, and you can't possibly fill the role of a father for all these allegedly sexually abused kids, some who are almost as old as you are. It's an impossible task. I'm amazed you are still there. But know this: As long as you are there, and especially if SO uses court and DOESN'T use intensive therapy for herself and probably ALL of the girls then nothing good is going to happen. Even if she does all that, everyone may be too messed up already to get it together. Another thing: Girls who are abused have a tendency to blame other men for abusing. I understand how the defendent got off, especially with a history of abuse and no witnesses. This is common. The next target could be YOU. You may NOT get off. I would be careful not to touch these girls in any way, not even hug them, and I would DEFINTELY never spank them. You could get into serious trouble. in my opinion, this situation is a disaster and you are playing with fire. I think it would help you if you went into therapy on your own to talk to somebody about why you are in this relationship and what you reasonably expect to get out of it. Nobody else should go with you. You need to get your own life sorted out aside from all the chaos surrounding you. You are a young man with your life in front of you. Is this what you want? These are questions you need to explore in therapy, on your own.
    I feel like this situation is just horrible in every way. None of the adults are acting like adults. I agree that difficult child may ask to live with her father though, especially if it's less chaotic. Do you listen to us or are we typing for no reason? Do you get how unhealthy all of this is, including you and SO? Do you understand SO is a poor mother? Is there always screaming and shouting in your house? Do you understand that you NEVER tell a child that her father hurt everyone in the family?
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2008
  4. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    Just to point out, these are supposed long ago violations that the father has been tried and found "not guilty" of. NOT GUILTY. The accusations were made during an ugly divorce by the older girls who claimed it happened early in their childhood and had since stopped. difficult child was not even born when the alledged abuse happened, and has never complained of abuse. She is most definitely not an abused kid, at least, not by her father. According to FTN, it is he who escalates the hostility in this home towards the father and keeps the situation at the forefront.

    What FTN can do for this family is to move on. difficult child doesn't owe hatred to anyone for something that may or may not have happened to someone else.
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2008
  5. FTN

    FTN New Member

    Amazing how you defend a convicted felon. Would you prefer I call him father of the year? Would you prefer contact with him? He was never found "not guilty" in a court of law. The DA couldn't prosecute due to lack of evidence. I assume you think OJ is not guilty huh? Maybe you should help him find the real killer. The court system isn't infallible and what kind of collectivist mentality would put those decisions on a pedestal. I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a conclusion.

    And no, I never allowed, much less continued to allow a victim of rape, molestation and abuse to use the perpetrator's picture for target practice. I took the older two to a gun range a few months after they came forward. easy child #1 wrote his name on the corner AFTER shooting then tore the corner with pedo-dad's name on it. She had the silhouette on her door for a month or so before we decided to have the house renovated.
  6. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Witz, sorry. I have trouble following his long posts.

    FTN, we are trying to help. What do you want us to say to you? That it will be all right? It won't be all right. And in my opinion your attitude just makes it worse. You aren't father of the year either. From your posts you act childish and hit the kids, and you get into this battle that is none of your business. Now you're getting sarcastic and snappish with us. I give this situation no hope. JMO

    I'll let others try to deal with this. I think you post to vent only as not one thing has changed since your first post, not even your insight into the situation.
  7. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    Thanks, MWM.

    FTN, done with you.
  8. FTN

    FTN New Member

    You're right. Nothing has changed. I didn't fight with SO for months to get difficult child into counseling. I haven't called easy child #1's insurance to locate a counselor for her. Getting her to go is another matter.

    I've never spoken to difficult child about her father except in one case.

    Yes, I post mainly to vent and look for realistic advice. Yet most of it seems its better to allow a child who was beaten (and probably molested by her father) to believe he's the messiah.

    Yet he threatens to "**** our worlds up," and we're bad guys. Some moral compass. F this place I guess.
  9. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Well, if you come here to vent, I'm not the person to vent to. I get frustrated when parents don't do anything to help their kids. This is a support board, but you said you don't want support. So what can we offer you? If you expect any of us to tell you to demonize this child's father to her, no matter WHAT he is, I doubt you'll ever get that advice. We have told you TO GET THE KIDS PSYCHIATRIC HELP!!! THAT will do more than worrying about who e-mails you, what the father allegedly did (because she has contact with him and you can't change that) or what father's wife did to tick you off. If SO does nothing for her kids but haul this father to court, nothing will change.

    Others will have to answer. Like Witz, I'm outta here.
  10. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    FTN, I do understand your anger and frustration. You're right, lack of prosecution is hugely different from a verdict of not guilty. However, somehow everyone has to move on. You, your SO, the girls. The girls can't move on without the help of the adults. They all need therapy. The youngest loves her dad. Plain and simple. No matter how you resent this love, it is there. You can't take that love away from her. No one has the right to do that. Her father has not hurt her, yet. Until he does, there's nothing you can do to prevent visitation. Worse, if you or SO allow the anger towards him show constantly, she's not going to let you know if he ever does hurt her in any way.

    Do work on getting therapy started. It really is important for all of the family members. When the ex or his present wife/girlfriend (?) call, simply state you need whatever via email and hang up. Do not confront these people. Your little one does not need nor deserve the drama. It is damaging to all and, if (when) there is a court hearing, it will give the judge more reason to rule in ex's favor (you were at his house when this last confrontation occurred). I hope you all find a way to get through this mess and that it becomes better soon.

    For the young lady who just saw justice once again betray her, try to explain that justice is blind. It doesn't see the nuances. People try to see others in the best light possble, even strangers. They did not say she was not molested or raped. They said that the past interfered with the present. Stinks, but that's the way it is sometimes. Honestly, it sounds like the DA fouled up. It is pretty easy to show how a molested child is more likely to become a victim to others in later years. This apparently didn't happen. This is one of the reasons I suggest everyone get therapy.

    You and your SO need to learn how to work through your anger and help the girls. The older girls need to learn how not to be victims, how to trust men in general, how to get through everything. The little one needs to learn how to deal with all the anger around her (not just at one home but at both of them). She needs to learn that it really is okay to like and love her dad even if the rest of the family doesn't and she needs to know she can speak up if needed. Honestly, I don't think any of you can get through this without professional help. There's just too much going on.
  11. Star*

    Star* call 911


    I was going to write my thoughts to you, but after reading your "F" this place comment I figure nothing that I could say will change your mind about the community.

    I would caution that if straight talk observations from someone in a cyber community upset you to the point of telling us all to get bent - it speaks volumes to me about where you are with your frustration levels and how you may handle things outside the cyber world.

    Glad to hear you got the SO and girls into therapy. Just know that the things that happend to your family won't heal over night, or in a month or even in a few years. A lot of time behaviors get worse before they get better, but with each outburst there should be growth if the environment your kids are in is also growing towards a common family goal. That environment depends solely on how you and SO handle life and it's bumps.

    If you stay here? I think you owe the community an apology for your comment. After that we move on. If you go? I wish you and your family the best of luck and mean that sincerely.

  12. Ropefree

    Ropefree Banned

    Oh my dear!
    #1: establish firm boundaries in your own mind about the sanctity of your home.

    This is a set of events in the relationship where the abnormal use of power acts like a mixer and everything blends together in one hot boiling mess of emotion.

    As you are aware of the nature of the abuses in your home and in the power struggling the one part that you do have control over and can OH YES YOU CAN
    do is what you bring to the fiasco.

    If their is some restraint provision or not document and report each violation as they happen.

    The daughter is confused upset and does not want the condition things are in
    OF COURSE NOT...when a human being is confronted with a horrible shock the first
    stop is denial. It is as if our minds just protect us with this veil and sometimes for years and decades until we are safe and strong enough that it all floods back.

    Also, this family was not operating on safe nurturing healthy terms and as a family member the most important thing about abuse to know is that if you are strong enouph to tolerate abuse in relationship you are strong enough to leave it.

    The dynamics at work are the utter lack of respect and appropriate boundaries for each person. And when one member is having emotional overload...the daughter as you discribe...who is conflicted internally by all that she has gone through and has not one bit of control over and HOW SHE FEELS! She is the one person in this mixture that has EVERY REASON to be "acting" out of control. Where would she have acquired the omnipitance to feel or do otherwise? She is surrounded by adults who have control over her life who do not respect her, do not defend her, do not give her harbour from the insanity and then anticipate that SHE is going to

    I am not suggesting that while you may decide that this type of relationship pattern of MUTALLY ABUSIVE design is what you prefer to now stop is ALL your fault. Very likely you do not understand the elements of a safe, nuturing way of achieving your objectives in relationship. You are not alone in that.

    I promise you that IF it is important to you and IF you do the work on YOURSELF that you and you alone are going to change the atmosphere in which your life is conducted in the future.

    Whenever adults take that path it demonstrated to their children and friends that it can be done and althought the abusers and sex offenders and the philanderers will not doubt remain a plague in society.

    You may prevail in the legal system and in this delema but you will not retain the sanity you do need if you are verbally engaging in verbal asaults and battles with them.

    CAn you get a supervised visitation in the order? and can you get every member in this custody visitation into some conseling and domestic violence training? Even if there is not other suggestions of physical assaults verbal is a physical assault as well.

    You are seeking help and it will be offered to you and you need to take good care to be able to hear and act on the guaidance that is out in the world.

    Look to the advantages that are there: you have contact limits..enforse them
    Lack of evidence means that you have a record that will pop up until the end of time for this abuser and do not let that mark loose its importance. You remain vigilant and conserned because of what you KNOW is a threat and someone who has harmed. Make your way safely from future contacts.

    In ooour urban world teaching our children to hold their head up with diginity and also to evade and retreat from unneccisary rotten people is also a skill.

    And hold firm to your truth. If you do know it is so then rant and rave in safe places and do not give those who are part of the abuse the window to hurt your further. Do not discuss with them

    As a parent I am so befuttled when others presume that I am not keenly aware of and working with around and through what is so. If you have a cause to expalin your position it is helpful to avoid overwhelming them as human beings put up a wall when it is to much. What works to engage the others understanding is to say something that is true that any normal person is going to agree with. Simple.

    Like "my daughter has been through so much, I am giving her time to focus on other things right now."

    My family is learning new behavor. WE love you. Let me call you back.
  13. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    MB, Ropefree, and anyone else who thinks anyone in this family was abused by the father, I feel obligated to point out that most often when there isn't enough evidence to prosecute, it's because there was no crime. The burden of proof for a criminal case is "beyond a reasonable doubt." The burden of proof in Family Court is "a preponderance of the evidence", which translates to 51% likely. This family could not even get a hearing in family court, therefore the evidence was found to be "less likely than so". Would you feel comfortable being labeled a pedophile by our group if a court of law found it less likely than so that you were? We shouldn't be so quick to judge someone who has not presented their side of the story to us.

    By his own admission, FTN brings to this family swearing at and berating this poor little girl (just as he brings those things to this board) who has never said she was molested or abused by anyone and loves her father, because FTN hates her father. This little girl does claim FTN abused her, and given his temper here, she's quite believable and his coming to us after all these months to suddenly claim innocence against a claim of abuse seems self-serving. By his own admission, he is domineering and breaks her things when he is upset with her. He brings guns into the home and encourages the older girls to target shoot pictures of this little girl's father and post the bullet riddled pictures on the outside of their bedroom doors for everyone to look at all day long. And worst of all, by his own admission, when this poor little girl begs them to stop fighting with her father and calling him a molester in front of her, he terrorizes her further with more yelling, berating, and breaking and/or taking her things.

    Thank god this little girl (none of the others in that home, only the little girl he calls a difficult child) is in therapy. I hope her therapist will find a way to protect her from all of the anger and violence that this very angry young man brings into their home.
    I don't buy for one minute that anyone in this family was ever abusive other than FTN, and that he chose to involve himself in this family for it's vulnerability because he knew he could walk right into the "boss" role. I pray that this little girl will one day feel good about herself. It's not going to happen unless this man gets help or gets out.

    And I'm most certainly entitled to my very well educated opinion on this one, just as much as the parent of an ADHD child is entitled to their opinion that teachers, shouldn't tie them to chairs and a BiPolar (BP) difficult child's mom knows that the teacher shouldn't scream at a BiPolar (BP) child in front of the rest of the class.

    Finally, the day that we all feel comfortable with a bitter ex making an accusation of abuse against us during a custody fight being total grounds to call us guilty of abuse in light of there being no other evidence, is a day we all need to take a really good look at ourselves. One day you could be in this little girl's bio-dad's position. When the police walk away and say "there's no evidence to support this" are you comfortable having someone walk into your child's life and call you "pedophile mom" for the rest of their childhood?
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2008
  14. flutterbee

    flutterbee Guest


    Your focus needs to come off bio-dad and should be on difficult child. Her dad is her dad - good, bad or otherwise. The more she feels she is in a position to have to defend him, the more she will. Period. My father was an abusive, alcoholic, drug addict. But, I would defend him to the ends of the earth if needed because he was MY dad. Until the day I was mature enough to see it for myself.

    You've stated in the past that SO hasn't done much in the way of getting difficult child into therapy. If that hasn't changed, it needs to immediately. These arguments with bio-dad and his SO in front of difficult child are damaging and they need to stop.

    The anger at bio-dad is eating all of you up and is not creating the kind of environment where difficult child feels safe. She needs to feel safe, loved and validated.
  15. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I don't think he's reading anymore. He didn't like what we said, and I think he was looking for us to say "You poor thing" "GREAT job." He already kissed us off. It's sad when somebody comes to the board with that sort of attitude. We know stuff is still going to happen in this family's life and that he may well be a part of it. We try, but some people don't really want any help or to see their own problems, and I don't think this young man does.
  16. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    MWM, you are probably right. I apologize if I ruffled any feathers. This topic is too much of a wound that will never close for me.
  17. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    Didn't ruffle my feathers. No matter what I think has or has not happened in the past or even what my personal opinion is about FTN, the goal should be to get these girls into therapy. It is important for all of them.

    There's no question that FTN has major issues with the ex and that there are some serious anger issues in the adults but the kids need help. Beating him across the head isn't going to get the help the kids need. Hopefully, he will come back and read everything written on this thread and take to heart the fact that the girls need help, he needs help and so does his SO. If this family doesn't do something and do it soon, there won't be a family -- there will be a group trying to survive on pretty bad and sad terms.
  18. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I'm not angry at all, witz. It's true. We don't know the story and the poster has been so quick-tempered with us that I think, even if it IS true, he is likely not handling any of this well. Frankly, I wonder if he isn't making a bad situation even worse by feuding with this ex. Ex has legal rights to the daughter and in my opinion they all need to be in therapy, including him, but he wants us to say "You're right." I won't give advice that I think is bad advice. I'm sure I"m not always right, but I try the best I can, and telling him that he's doing great would be a lie. I think this is a very messed up family and that he is way involved over his head. These aren't his kids. And he certainly isn't in my opinion mature enough to save them.
  19. Ropefree

    Ropefree Banned

    For my part the most significant thing I offer is to the MUTUALLY ABUSIVE nature of adults endulging in this conflict.

    What I do know about abusive conduct is IT ALWAYS feels bad...goes nowhere and solves nothing.

    Adults are pawns in the court system ONLY because they lack the sober mutual concern for their own indivigual family members.

    How do we help children when their parents are so preoccupied with the emotionally stymulations of conflict to be caring for the best interest of the child today? How does a child have their developementally appropriate time when that has been pre-empted by the fiasco d'jur of the adults preferance? And all their other interesting relationships that they just do not have any problem finding the time to muck about in.

    Alot of people take on the role of victum-victumizer...and then and then and then
    going for the intervention and stepping out of the cycle of abuse with all that intails removes the child from the role modeling...which, by the way, is in itsself a form of sexual abuse.
    I do not know these particular people, but the allure of the battlefield in the intamacy of a family is the single most prevalent and damaging social disease that children are infected. It is all learned behavor.
    Adults can communicate well enough to be clear and offer a stable foundation for their children. When they can not what is the point exactly?
  20. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    Very well put, Rope.