Just an update

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by scent of cedar, Jul 7, 2013.

  1. scent of cedar

    scent of cedar New Member

    On July 5th, the father of one of difficult child daughter's children "kidnapped/rescued" difficult child from the group of people she has been living with. (Living homeless on the streets by her own choice with, that is.) He took her far away, into the northern portions of the state. difficult child called. She is happy he did this to save her. Tells us the bad person she has been with BY HER OWN CHOICE took the I.D. she finally obtained. He told her he would kill her if and when we stopped sending that little bit of money we sent every week, and that, without I.D., by the time her body would be found, there would be no way to tie him to the murder.

    I don't know how true all that is. It brings on a helpless, nightmarish pit-of-the-stomach feeling, though.

    difficult child said she has been held against her will. That when we would try to force a meeting, he would beat her and hide her away from anywhere we might be. That he beat her badly before the 4th to teach her that she would never be able to get away. (We would not put money into her account unless we'd heard from difficult child.) So, apparently, he was beating her both before and after those phone calls, and may even have been listening in.

    Awful stuff.

    Except that difficult child called one night a few weeks ago, crying because the bad man was, supposedly, dying. He had passed out on the streets, gone into some kind of seizure, and been taken to the emergency room. (We have been told the man's liver is kaput. He has been imminently dying for a while, now.) Anyway, he was admitted to the hospital. We offered to bring difficult child home that night. We did not hear from difficult child again until it was time for her money to be deposited.

    She could have come home then, is what I am trying to say. We told her to come home, then. So could it be true that difficult child was being held against her will.

    And difficult child was drunk as a lord when we talked to her on the 5th. (When she told us the father of one of her children had kidnapped/rescued her away from the group of people she had been living on the streets with.) Also? That the bad man who has been imminently dying for months now, came after the man who kidnapped/rescued difficult child with a chain.

    Which is pretty spry, for someone imminently dying. I'm just saying.

    She explained her current drunken state by saying that, with as much as she has been drinking, as often as she has been drinking, she will be very sick if she stops cold.

    And that the bad, imminently dying man kept her drunk to control her.

    I'm sorry. I think I am posting more to name and dilute the trauma (that dark, numb feeling, small and tight and dangerous) at the core of this knowledge than to ask for advice. I know you will understand. I haven't reached a state of balance with all this, yet.

    Or maybe, I am detached enough at this point that the horror of what has been happening to difficult child isn't affecting me the way it would have, in the past.

    On the other hand, our grandchildren are doing well. They are forming a family with the ex-husband and with his family. In the past, our granddaughters have come up North for a few weeks in the summer. This summer, we decided not to do that. We did not want anything bad to happen to difficult child daughter while the grandchildren were here. Nor did we want difficult child daughter to learn they were here, so close to where she is.

    So, we did not have them here with us for the 4th. That was a little bit hard, but we're feeling better about everything, now.

    So, that is my update.

  2. recoveringenabler

    recoveringenabler Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Yikes. What a story. Is it possible to talk to the ex who rescued her to verify any of these details? What is truly remarkable is that your daughter, much like mine, has zero responsibility in any of this, she is a 'victim' of the circumstances she herself has orchestrated through her own choices. I am so sorry Barbara, this stuff is so incredibly hard to hear. And, then we have to figure out what is actually real and filter that all through our own system to be able to deal with it. Between the alcohol and the mental illness, there is likely little truth in any of it.

    The awful truth is that you and your husband have to listen to it and have your hearts wounded by the knowledge, whether it's true or not. I'm sorry that you have to be traumatized while you "find your balance." If our daughter's only knew the suffering caused by their actions, if they were capable of that kind of lucid thought, I imagine that knowledge would catapult them out of this insanity..............but, they don't know........they don't see the bodies left in their wake...........

    I understand how it "dilutes" the trauma to write about it, one of the many benefits of this forum. And, amazingly, I do think we are less impacted by these dramatic events in our difficult child's lives as time goes by.........you sound more...........resigned.........accepting..........detached.............and I know the price paid to get there too.

    It's good to hear that your grandkids are doing well.

    I just finished reading that book I told you about, The Untethered Soul, it helped me to recognize how all of my suffering did nothing but steal my own life from me...............and how I can choose to be happy in any given moment, in spite of any circumstances. These issues with our children may be the ultimate test for that thinking and yet, as you are recognizing as well, life marches forward with or without our joy intact..............our daughter's lives continue to be dramatic and dangerous as they hang over the cliff determined to catapult into the darkness.............so do we stand there watching them and being horrified at the choices they make, or do we step back, notice a different direction and march down that path? Little by little I am choosing that other path....................looks as if you are walking in that direction too.............
  3. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    Lordy, I can read and hear your newfound strength but my heart still breaks for you as the parameters change. Hugs.
  4. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I can read it in your post just how resigned you are to the life your daughter has chosen. Yes chosen. I have to say I find many of those things she has said just as "remarkable" as you seem to also. It does look like she had many chances to get away if she was being held against her will. Also bad man seems very spry for a dying man. I didnt know dying men had that kind of strength.

    Hope maybe this time something will get through to her but are we holding our breath?
  5. scent of cedar

    scent of cedar New Member

    Skotti, you are so funny! :O) No, not doing any holding my breath, over here.

    I have been Facebooking with the man who supposedly rescued difficult child daughter. He is the father of our 14 year old granddaughter, who is living in another state with difficult child's ex-husband and her two half-brothers. Like the ex-husband who has the three grandchildren, this man too was devastated by what has happened to difficult child. (For those who don't know, difficult child was a successful Junior High math teacher before this happened. She loved her job, and was very good at it.) He HAD told us he was going to go and get difficult child "out of there" soon. My response had been the kinds of things we say to one another, here. That difficult child had chosen her current lifestyle, and there was no way he could help her or change that. I told him, too, that difficult child could have come home any time she wanted to, and had chosen not to.

    So, it probably is true that he did go in and get her.

    difficult child said there is no phone or internet right where they are. I did not actually speak to the man.

    I think what I think is that, if all these things are true, this may be a chance for difficult child to dry out and come to her senses? Really, we don't quite know what to think, other than to be grateful our grandchildren are safely away from the whole thing and are doing well.

    So maybe, this will turn out to be a good thing. (?)

    difficult child was quite impressed with the dramatic nature of the "rescue."

    I think it probably is true. We will know more if there is no call from difficult child for money in her account. She cannot access her account from where they supposedly have gone.

    Maybe difficult child really was in that kind of situation, and the man is a hero?

    I know the police had told me once that, in a city the size of the one difficult child was in, she would never be found if she did not want to be.

    Lasted edited by : Jul 10, 2013
  6. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Well I dont doubt this guy...Im having trouble tracking just how he is related...lol...rescued her. Im having a bit of a harder time believing all the ummm, interesting tales about Mr Dying Bad Man.

    Maybe we should all get together and right a tv show. This really is drama that could rival anything on TV. Law and Order:parent Style.
  7. Dixies_fire

    Dixies_fire Member

    I'm glad that your difficult child is safe or at least safer.

    "Dying" man- that could be subjective, several times over the past two years while husband was awaiting surgery I thought he might be "dying" his blood pressure was certainly high enough at several points to have killed him though he was still going to work and doing normal army things that can and do kill people in poor health such as he was.it wouldn't have surprised me if he had died one morning doing physical training. So maybe true maybe exaggeration.

    As far as it goes what it sounds like to me. I've seen my sister do this a few times when she was in a bad situation she did not want sister to save her she did not want mom to save her at least not on anything but her terms (accepting her husband into our home) but she would of accepted being "rescued" by a man because them it becomes romantic and not like she failed but that she formed a new "relationship".

    Take that for whatever it's worth I thought it might resonate with you.

    Also I have no idea about your difficult child but I think this is the difficult child that her bad man crashed her into a wall in her van? It's conceivable that he was also doing quite a bit of what she said in my opinion. And her ex had never showed up for whatever reason she has chosen to take it? Or maybe wasn't ever really alone? Maybe Stockholm syndrome? I don't know, I do know abusive relationships are hard to walk away from and no one ever really understands it but the person who lives it and even they don't really understand.

    Anyway I'm glad you had better news and hope you get to put your arms around her in the near future.
  8. scent of cedar

    scent of cedar New Member

    That is exactly right, Dixie. difficult child wanted this person invited to our family's 4th of July celebration. (!) Always, she said he is a good man (?!?) and if we would only meet him, we would know that. But, at the same time, this "good man" is being thrown out of everywhere, and coming back after difficult child with things like fence posts with nails in them. Still, difficult child would choose living with this dork on the streets than being anywhere else.

    And yes, this is the same person who rammed difficult child's van into the stone wall, totaling the van. difficult child had severe head injuries and a lacerated liver out of that one. Still, she swore SHE was the one driving, and that she'd had to speed up to avoid a pedestrian. The only problem with that story is that it was the passenger-side windshield which had been broken by someone's head smashing into it, and difficult child was the one with the head injury.

    And the lacerated liver.

  9. busywend

    busywend Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Who knows what to believe. I just hope your Grandchildren are truly safer now than before. I was NOT aware she was a successful teacher, I don't think I frequented PE that much before my difficult child moved out.
    What turned her from the lifestyle she was living? You do not have to answer or rehash this. I am just curious.
  10. scent of cedar

    scent of cedar New Member

    difficult child was prescribed Cymbalta, for anxiety, in September of 2012. This medication was prescribed by a general practitioner.

    For some, this is a miracle drug. For about 15% of those who use it, Cymbalta can trigger mania. As near as we can figure, difficult child was thrown into a manic state. From what we've been able to piece together, there was use of street drugs while she was using the Cymbalta. (One of the symptoms of mania is poor impulse control.) At some point, she stopped the Cymbalta cold turkey. Cymbalta is a medication that should be tapered under medical supervision. DUI Nov 6th. The bad people she is with now were sort of floating around the edges of things back in August. We left for the winter in October. difficult child quit her job in November. In December difficult child's ex-husband came to visit his sons. By that point, difficult child's apartment had become a haven for homeless druggies. He took all three kids back with him. difficult child's lease was terminated, and she became homeless January 31st. She put her belongings into storage and went to stay with "friends." difficult child was mandated into treatment in early February. She left AMA in March. The accident was April 1st. We came home in May. Though we have Facebook video-called with difficult child a few times, we have not seen her in person since last October.


    Starting at about 14, difficult child ran away and ran away, always to the bad people in the inner city. These are the same people she wound up with now, as an adult ~ except that now, those of them still alive have prison records.

    When difficult child daughter was young, she was in treatment four or five times.

    The first facility (we brought her to that one) was a dual-diagnostic facility specializing in adolescents in crisis. All they told us was that difficult child was alcoholic (at 14) and would die without treatment. While we had known something was wrong, we had no idea alcohol was at the root of it. Nonetheless, that is what they told us it was, and so we proceeded on that basis. difficult child voluntarily underwent her first treatment. Three months.

    They could not tell us what the toxicity in our home was that had caused this.

    At that time, our son, who is two years younger than difficult child, was doing great. (He would begin using drugs, and would become addicted, when he was 16. He would pull himself out of that and turn his life around at 32. He is doing well, now ~ struggling financially, but working hard and no drug use.) Things went from bad to worse with difficult child daughter. Probation and state-mandated treatments came, next. At one point, we had something called SWAT teams coming to the house whenever they wanted to, unannounced, for difficult child daughter. They could go through her room whenever they wanted ~ pretty much making every possible effort to help difficult child straighten out. She was also part of an intensive program aimed specifically at adolescent females on probation. Actually, we came to know so many of these people so well. They cared very much for and about difficult child.

    But nothing seemed to help.

    So anyway, we struggled along pretty well, with difficult child always in or out of treatment, and always returning to these same, bad people she is running with now whenever she was home. difficult child became pregnant with our first grandchild. difficult child was 19 when she had her. As soon as the baby's father would be released from jail (honest to God), difficult child would take the baby and go live with him. He would go back to jail, and difficult child and the baby would come home.

    During this time, the emphasis was on getting difficult child through high school and then, into college. Problem, problem, problem, and we are 7 or 8 years down the line. difficult child has had another baby. (The child whose father has now rescued difficult child.) difficult child is working (no degree yet, but a good job). Meets someone on the internet. They get married. He is actually a wonderful man. In fact, he is the man currently raising all three of difficult child's minor children, only two of which are his. difficult child's other child is now 20, and is doing pretty well, all things considered.

    Now, where was I?


    Just kidding.

    difficult child divorced the husband. She was living in another state, had graduated, and was teaching, by this time. Got involved with another teacher. Beautiful home, beautiful diamond. Brought the man to the lake one summer. Very nice, bright, wonderful man. Next thing we knew, that relationship was over, too. Last summer, she decided to come home, to be closer to family. She found work (good work, too) right away. (difficult child is ~ or she was, last time I saw her anyway ~ bright, attractive and well-spoken.)

    Things started to look a little flaky toward the end of August.

    Somehow, we convinced ourselves that, once husband and I left for the winter and difficult child was solely responsible for herself and the kids, she would settle down. She had always been a really great mom. Really great. So, we went ahead and left, in October. Things seemed fine, at first.

    But then, in November, difficult child quit her job.

    She said all was well, everything was under control.

    Still, we wouldn't hear from her so often.

    Thanksgiving, we did get to talk to everyone, saw pictures on Facebook, etc. Bad people were in those pictures. difficult child said no, they had changed, and all was well.

    We started hearing more and more about this particular bad man difficult child has been fixated on/living on the streets with. At first, we heard that he was a wonderful man who was helping her stay focused, helping with the kids....

    difficult child has been diagnosed with a "serious and pervasive" mental illness.

    Perhaps that was always the issue? We don't know.

    Is the problem mental illness? Or has all this happened because of the Cymbalta. Or, is it Cymbalta combined with illegal drug use? Is it running (and choosing to run) with the people she ran with when she was 14? Was it the Cymbalta that made it seem like a good idea to become re-involved with these people? We don't know.

    Do we view our daughter as someone who has made a courageous fight against mental illness all her life, and was thrown over the edge when the Cymbalta was prescribed? Or do we view her as someone who willfully destroyed hers and her children's lives through illicit drug use?

    I am tempted to explore action against the prescribing physician. Given difficult child's history, and the fact that illegal drug use is involved as well, I haven't done anything.

  11. in a daze

    in a daze Well-Known Member

    Hi Barbara,

    Just wondering, was she treated for mental illness when she was an adolescent, or was she treated just for the drug abuse? Was mental illness an issue back then, or was it strictly addiction?
  12. 1905

    1905 Well-Known Member

    I know from personal experience...when difficult child's lips are moving he's lying. A lacerated liver can cause death. I think if I were you I would send money to the ex who rescued her. Maybe that would give her an incentive to just stay there and chill out, that's what she should do. Then she can fix herself. Do not send money to her if she's hanging out with the bad guys. Give her an incentive to stay with normal people (as long as the normal people don't include you). This can be the end of this bs. hugs!
  13. scent of cedar

    scent of cedar New Member

    When difficult child was an adolescent, the question of mental illness was suggested. difficult child had always had night terrors, and vivid dreams. difficult child was not put on psychiatric medications as an adolescent. As an adult, there were diagnoses of polycystic ovaries, and thyroid problems. difficult child developed adhesions from the POS. Those were removed. She does have a benign growth on her thyroid. She is subject to thyroid storm. At the time the Cymbalta was prescribed, she was using klonopin to manage the thyroid problems. She had a hysterectomy some years back. Both ovaries were taken, except for a piece of the healthier one, to prevent early menopause. Each of these surgeries / procedures was explored as a way to help difficult child stabilize.

    The liver was lacerated in the accident. We received a call from difficult child in Intensive Care. There are degrees of laceration. difficult child's laceration did not require surgical intervention.

    Poor difficult child. She has had such a battle.

  14. recoveringenabler

    recoveringenabler Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Oh Barbara, it is a sad story. You've really gone through the mill with both of your children. And, you've emerged such a warm, gentle and compassionate soul. So much of your story I can empathize with..........my sister is bi-polar, with many other dxes, I raised her.......she was drawn to all the other kids who were considered bad or weird........she repeatedly ran away..........she is very, very smart...........at one point she drank too much.....ultimately she had a complete breakdown and was hospitalized and I think that helped her. However, as a result of that breakdown, she distanced herself from every family member, including me. She hasn't spoken to me in 15 years. My daughter had night terrors too. Both of them were intense as kids and when they got into their 30's is when the mental issues got them and it began unraveling. I've lost my brother to schizophrenia, my sister to bi-polar, my daughter to some unspecified illness..........your last line......Poor difficult child. She has had such a battle........just brought tears to my eyes.......

    They fight their own battles, we can't enter into that world to know what that is like for them and as a result we stand along the sidelines watching, waiting, listening, wondering, fearful for them, always trying to make it better, learning to live with the hole in our hearts, .........it can be a terrible place to be. I am so sorry this has been your experience. It has been mine too. It doesn't do any good to blame yourself, or suffer, or rail against it, all we can do is accept it and take the next step. It is truly amazing that we humans can experience this heartbreak and continue on..........

    All those questions you pose, is it mental illness, it is the Cymbalta, the illicit drugs............similar to my questions, was it the suicide, was it the mother in law's abusive blame, was it me, was it my parents, what exactly caused all of this, why did this happen, where did it start............I still don't know, I still have no idea what happened, all I know is that it happened, it's here, it's part of my life, my story, my history, my darkness.

    My daughter, my sister and my brother all have to find a way to live in their world, and to some degree they have........not the way I choose to live..........I recall rescuing my brother from the streets of L.A. many years ago, bringing him home, trying to give him a "normal" life.........got him a job, a car, thought I was really helping him. Then one day he tells me, " I have to go back to L.A., it's too boring here." I had to take a step back and think he had lived on the streets for years and years and I guess from that vantage point, a safe, comfortable house looked pretty benign. My other brother and I arranged for him to live in a kind of flea bag boarding house in L.A. where he still lives today. He is not aware that he is what I would term "living marginally" ...........he is living his life.

    My sister is an artist and lives in her own home and is very accomplished. She can't relate to people and spends most of her time in her studio, creating. She's worked out a life that works for her. The jury is still out on my daughter, who seems to need more dangerous interactions and outcomes, more drama and disappointment, so I am not sure where that will lead, but it is her life to choose.

    Barbara, I don't think in their minds they are in the dire straights we believe they are in, they have a very different point of view. I spent so much time worrying and really freaking out in fear and then my daughter would show up and say, "I'm going bowling." Or some other completely incongruent statement unrelated to the intensity she was presently living in. Then the next time, she would be sobbing on the floor, unable to move, as broken as you can imagine and I would cave in and just give her whatever she needed. As soon as she got it, off she would go, happy to have a sandwich and a full tank of gas. It can make you, the parent, go out of your mind because it is just not REAL.

    I think our difficult child's find comfort in others who they feel are like them, what you term, bad people. My sister and daughter have friends like that too. They seem more broken and lost to me then bad, kind of outcasts, outlaws, people who walk a very different line then you or I. Since that is where our daughter's gravitate, I presume that is where they feel the best about themselves, it must be so hard to never live up to the expectations we all have of them, to be "normal" to do things "right"..............if they can't live up to those expectations, perhaps it's better to not live up to any, or not have any to live up to. I think my daughter feels like a big disappointment to me. I don't think she feels that way with her "friends." She can't live in my world and I can't live in hers. The sadness in that could keep me crying all the time, but I have to continually choose to be okay, peaceful, happy.

    You've done so much for your son and your daughter. It seems like it's time to step back and rest now. The kids are safe. difficult child is as safe as she can be in the world she lives in. I hope you and husband can find peace now. I wish that for you.
  15. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    An AD was what really brought things to a head for me back in 2000. Looking back I know I had issues my entire life but the AD in 2000 was what brought the diagnosis into the light.
  16. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful


    What a horrific mess. But Skotti is right, difficult child chose that mess.

    It very well could be she was held against her will and kept drunk enough to keep her compliant. IF this was the case........then probably anything she said to you on the phone while she was with him was scripted.

    I don't know the person who rescued her, but I'm going to guess they know her well enough they'd have to be convinced she truly needed rescuing.........so perhaps what she is telling you is true.

    Or it could just be partially true. Or a totally pack of lies. Or perhaps worse........a delusion of what really was going on.

    At this point, you just have no way of knowing. But even if it IS true, her choices led to that situation.

    I'm glad that at this time she is safe. I hope that perhaps this is her rock bottom and her wake up call. She is in my prayers.

    You are also in my prayers.

    Lasted edited by : Jul 10, 2013