Just feel the need

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by klmno, Jun 14, 2009.

  1. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    to throw this out, since it brings the statement "don't ever think it can't happen to 'you', 'me', 'my child'..." to home.

    My son told me about a kid he was talking to in Department of Juvenile Justice. He told me the kid was in there for stabbing his grandmother to death and that it happened 4 years ago. He told me the kid's name. I googled it (no, I'm not stalking him).

    This is what I found:


    This kid is now somewhat of a friend of my son and I have no idea at this point if this is a good thing or a horrible thing. They live in the same unit. I was there for a family day last week which was incorporated into graduation from high sschool for the 3 that did and the 5 that were given their GED's. The kids there are in JROTC. The "boy" being referred to graduated and was the highest rank in JROTC. He never gets into trouble, according to word I hear, and I have NEVER seen him have one visitor. My son says he still writes the girlfriend, though. My son also said that he can't explain or give reason why it happened but says "his medications were messed up". I don't think that is true because another article I read said he wasn't on any medications, But he was in therapy. His grandfather was an engineer and his grandmother was an upstanding citizen, too.

    by all accounts, it just happened with no logical explanation. They say it was over the girlfriend, but really, a lot of families have issues about a 14yo wanting to have a girlfriend or boyfriend but not being allowed to. What bothers me most is that my son seems to have such an understanding of this kid- almost a bond. And I can really see this possibly happening iin my home. The kid apparently tells the others that he is sorry, he wished he hadn't done it, he can't explain why, but I see nothing relayed to me that makes me think he really gets it or is remorseful for it. My son says he never gets into trouble, works hard, never bothers him or the other kids. Actually, the whole reason they haven't moved him to a different facility yet (due to him being around 18yo now) is because he has gotten along so well there.

    I find the whole thing very frightening. On the one hand, I feel sorry for him. On the other- well, Ted Bundy seemed charming too. But also important, what kind of influence is this having on my son?

    the relative this kid had that cared for him the most was the very person he killed. He has not been violent toward anyone else. I just think there is a lot of food for thought here- the genes from his bio-parents, anger from his parents not raising him, self-esteem issues (I've seen him- I was shocked because he looks geekier than my son), how much should we listen to tdocs and when should we think beyond that and what on earth can we do anyway, etc.

    No response necessary- I don't have a lot of appreciation for some I've seen lately when they are accusatory rather than supportive or constructive. I just thought some others on the board in similar situations of living with fear of violence might be interested in thinking about this. It makes me wonder how much we, as parents/guardians, can really do to prevent horrible situations.

    Maybe what strikes a cord with me is the fact that I feel my son has rejection/abandonment issues and, fortunately, the Department of Juvenile Justice psychiatric there agreed with me after hearing the history, and the only thing I can see that this kid has in common with my son is that. My son told me his anger toward me was because I was the only person who told him he was special and lovable therefore, it must be me that lied to him. And, my son has horrible reactions when he feels the least bit of rejection from peers. I really hope their tdocs there are good ones.
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2009
  2. ThreeShadows

    ThreeShadows Quid me anxia?

    Wow! What I find really spooky is that difficult child 2 went to the same psychiatric unit as his girlfriend with whom he was obsessed. He wanted to go there to experience what she had gone through. This is too weird. He could easily have flipped out on us like this boy did.

    I too wonder about the bond between these two boys. Do you think your son feels compassion for him?

    Other than that, how is your son?
  3. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Yes, my son feels compassion I think. They trade snacks and talk. It appears that my son understands him and maybe even admires him.

    My son reassures me that I don't have to worry about anything like that, but you know, he's in there because he pulled a knife on me and that resulted in an additional charge and having his suspended sentence revoked. He calls, writes, and mainly wants to talk to me aout things in Department of Juvenile Justice because he said he has to concentrate on "that life" right now. He tells me he loves me, but I son't think he really gets the severity of things either. But I don't think he could handle it if he did.

    As far as how he's doing now- he is behaving very well and doing fine. Thank you for asking! I'm going through the same carp regarding his IEP because they keep their school issues separate from Department of Juvenile Justice issues- supposedly- but it's like starting all over in a different school district that wants to label difficult child "a problem" when in reality, he had no problems at school for a year almost. I think we about have them convinced to give us family therapy NOW and to trial difficult child off medications, gradually, so those are good signs. difficult child might not be able to maintain without medications, but we will never know for sure or if this is truly BiPolar (BP) or if it is, get all agencies on board without trialing him without medications first.
  4. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    The way this boy killed his Gma is EXACTLY where we thought Wiz was headed. I cannot even count the number of nights I prayed extra hard that Wiz wouldn't attack any of us. His tdocs would always tell me I "didn't see the situation clearly" when I first expressed this. Then after a couple of months they would start freaking out when they saw how violent he was and realized how he pulled the wool over the therapist's eyes.

    I would not know how to feel if my son was friends with this person. I would worry it would make the attack seem "ok" or "normal" to my son. But it might actually provide a lesson my child needed. I just don't know which it would be.

    I think that getting the family therapy on board now is a great idea. I hope they follow through and provide this with a good therapist.

    As it is, are you taking some time to recharge your batteries as much as you can?

    Keeping you and difficult child in mind.
  5. aeroeng

    aeroeng Mom of Three

    I would worry and watch, but not keep them apart. One side, it shows him the reality of what can happen, and the consequences after. Even if he is slow to understand the severity. And the child's behavior looks like it presents a good example. I also don't think what made him kill his grandmother is going to pass through the association. It comes from inside. If your son is admiring him because he is improving and behaving well, that's a good sign. However, if the admiration is because he killed, it is very scary. I would not allow much time together in an unstructured environment. And, I would not trust him any.

    My sister's ex-husband tried to kill her. He ended up in jail and then the hospital. Once on medication he became rational again, until he got his prescription filled in England to save money. Turns out the English version was not the same stuff, and he became suicidal /homicidal again. When back on the proper medication he is OK. Without the medication he is a homicidal stocker, with it he is an annoying ex-husband. I worry because the fear of the possible always hangs out there. But things do seem to work and the chemical balance in his mind really did drive the actions. I have read enough incorrect news articles to believe the stories author probably was not the best expert regarding what medication and treatment the boy had prior the event.

    But be vigilant and cautious
  6. robinm1922

    robinm1922 One day at a time

    I wanted to send hugs and support. I have followed you and your difficult child closely and my heart goes out to you. You have had a hard road, I hope it starts getting easier. I also hope your difficult child continues to improve and does well off medications. It is scary because you can't control who they make friends with while they are away, all you can do is hope he admires his new friend because of the progress he has made. You said this boy was even geekier that your difficult child, I wonder if they have the "geek" connection. What ever the connection maybe I hope it is for the good of your difficult child and not the other way.
    Do you know when he will be coming home? I will keep the two of you in my prayers.
    When I read about the things you and so many others here are going through, it makes me feel almost guilty for complaining about my difficult child. I hope your difficult child continues to work on getting better, I also hope that the family counseling comes through and is a huge help.
    I wish you the best of luck!
  7. eekysign

    eekysign New Member

    I guess sometimes they really don't know how things got so out of hand? Sort of the same story from someone from my hometown. A friend's little brother stabbed a neighbor to death, at age 14 or 15, after he broke into their house. No history of mental illness or violence, criminal thoughts, nothing. He didn't steal anything, and he only attacked the man when he was "discovered", ie, it doesn't seem to be the REASON he broke in.

    Nothing more useful came out in the trial, other than he was evaluated by the psychiatric teams and they found him competent, and no plea of insanity was entered. Unless something's changed in the last few years, the kid is serving life in prison for this crime, and no one has any idea why he did it.

    I knew the kid, he was quiet, but sweet. The family was kind and totally devoted to their kids. As far as I know, they didn't have any contact with those neighbors (couple of houses down), so it wasn't a long-standing feud thing. I guess the only reason I'm telling this is because of the "I don't know why I did it" - that's pretty much what my friend's little brother said during the trial. He honestly seemed confused as to how he ended up in this position - when the police arrived, he was wandering around outside their home, and peacefully was arrested without any fuss. When the wife was calling 911, he was heard in the background telling her "everything was fine, there's no problem". But he didn't try to stop her.

    Surreal to see someone without the disorders or illnesses of our kids go off the deep end. I don't like it when things are entirely unexplained. The world is a crazy place.
  8. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member


    I kinda feel bad cause the other day on a friends post when she said her son had hit her and had said that my difficult child's had not done that to me..."was over my head".
    Well, truth be told, there were certainly times that I had secret fears that my sons, in a possible drug induced state, along with other drug using "friends" could have broken into my bedroom in the middle of the night and either hurt or killed husband and I.
    I hate to admit that but the thoughts were there at times.

    My sig has the words..."There but for the Grace of G-d go I"...and I do mean that. I would never want to come across as accusatory toward another poster...it certainly, the fear of harm or violence was in my home.

    I think I would have been even more afraid if my husband had not been living in the house with me, if I had been alone.

    My oldest difficult child did pull a knife out one night but he caused harm to himself not us...but I can't tell you how many times my sons kicked doors and punched walls causing alot of damage. The fear of violence to me and husband was certainly there.

    Anyway I just felt the need to say I can see how this could happen.

  9. Steely

    Steely Active Member

    Hi klmno ~

    It has been awhile since we have connected. I certainly hope I have not come across accusatory with you - and if so - you would pop me in the eye:faint:

    My son is best friends with a kid in his program that has psychotic episodes. This kid has done some horrific things - and yet - is seemingly a sweetheart. I have met him several times, and even talked to him on the phone. I talked to Matthew at length about this friend during our last visit - and Matthew seems to truly get how ill this kid can be - and yet does not hold his past acts against who he is as a person now.

    I think for anyone it would be really hard to hold someone's past against them - when they seem so normal in the now. Yet your son knows what is right and wrong - and knows what this kid did was not OK. Your son is strong enough to not let this kid mold or affect him.

    I do understand your fears of how it could happen to any one of us. But you have to also remember how tremendously rare it is for a child to commit murder. Your son will not be one of those. He won't. I know it is scary - I understand completely. I still fear it. But it is extremely unlikely.

  10. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Thanks for the support! My comment about accusatory posts was not directed toward the general population of this board, and especially not to those who have stood by me for 2 years as I have gone thru so much with difficult child.

    Susie- I understand what you are saying- I told the GAL once during court that I don't think it's me in denial. But as you know, sometimes tdocs, legal people, etc, can be so sure that the parent is biased that it is really them that can't see anything objectively.

    As far as difficult child, he's doing great in so many ways, yet I do have fears still. I met with the head psychiatric there last week, who is actually above his therapist (but his therapist must be a masters level psychiatric). Anyway, that seemed to go very well and she seemed on board with everything I relayed to her through words and documentation about difficult child's previous evaluations and recommendations. she said she would try to arrange for me and the psychiatrist to talk on the phone. That shocked me because I kept hearing that since psychiatrist is contracted out to go from one facility to another, no one except the kid ever talks to him/her. Then difficult child told me that his therapist told him that she agreed, we really need family therapy.

    I am not so comfortable with the school situation (IEP team) yet. They seem to have the attitude that they will tell me what they will and will not do. That doesn't sit well when they are not run by Department of Juvenile Justice so it's suppposed to be like a regular team that requires the parent's permission. It didn't help any that the sd difficult child came from sent misleading info. You know that re-evaluation I was making a fuss about a couple of months ago? They actually sent a note to the Department of Juvenile Justice school saying they didn't do it because "Parent refused to sign consent". BS. Imagine their surprise when I pulled out my signed copy- dated in Jan.!

    As far as this other kid's influence on difficult child, it's probably too soon to tell. I wish I was hearing that the kid misses his grandmother and and that he's trying to tell difficult child that it was a horrible thing to do and that difficult child was saying he's glad he didn't go that far because he wouldn't have me around anymore. In spite of the fact that this kid is apparently doing very well, my gut tells me that he's sorry he got caught but is glad that he can now write his girlfriend and he doesn't really get the loss that he has caused.

    difficult child tells me I don't have to worry about anything like that happening with him. Well, the knife was at my neck while I was sitting in a defenseless position and there are stab marks/cuts in the top of the chair where my head is when I'm sitting in it. He stopped that time, but what if he didn't next time? I know difficult child has had to convince himself that he can make it in there and make it in this world without me in order to survive, but what if he takes that to a point where he wouldn't feel any loss if I was dead? Hopefully, we can get passed this stage- his maturity and my fears- before his release. At least if there is family therapy and this stuff is brought out to a therapist, it should help with the parole officer if I refuse to let difficult child come home right away. I won't abandon him, as I''ve always said, but in my mind, I'm protecting him as much as me if I think there is any chance that he'll flip out on me again. I don't want him to ever be sitting in that boy''s shoes.

    The geekiness- I hadn't thought about them having that in common but it could be right. Most the boys in there look the stereotypical way. My son wears glasses and lies to act like he's done more than he has- like have sex and done street drugs. The other boy is the only blonde haired boy in there. Since the high schoolers had their dress JROTC uniforms on (which looked very impressive) and the boy had so many medals, I thought he was a JROTC staff person, not an inmate. It's sad because now they are getting so many younger ones in Department of Juvenile Justice since the state psychiatric hospital's are closing and parents are finding it harder and harder to get kids in Residential Treatment Center (RTC)'s- Department of Juvenile Justice is the only place to send them. And as I was told- it puts the costs on the state instead of the local jurisdiction. Personally, I think that is a disgrace on our society and no better than institutionalizing our kids the way they did 100 years ago. But, I will say that this particular facility seems to have a lot more going for it than some of the others I have heard about.

    Steely- there's no way you offended me but if that ever happened, I would PM you and and tell you that you hurt my feelings or asked you to clarify or something.
  11. CrazyinVA

    CrazyinVA Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Wow. I can't add much that others haven't said... this is heartbreaking, and frightening.
  12. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    thanks, Crazy! Rehashing or not, every time I look at this chair I am appalled that the GAL was advocating for sending difficult child back home and ordering therapy for me. And that she just about had the prosecuting attny (who was new) advocating for this, too. And those feelings got a whole lot more intense after learning about this other boy. I don't think I will ever see that GAL as anything other than an idiot for not advocating for Residential Treatment Center (RTC) when there were written recommendations from a state psychiatrist where THEY sent difficult child and I had difficult child accepted into a secure Residential Treatment Center (RTC) and costs covered by sd, medicaid, and me.
  13. Wiped Out

    Wiped Out Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Adding supportive hugs. I can see where that chair is a constant reminder. I continue to keep you and your difficult child in my daily prayers.
  14. everywoman

    everywoman Active Member

    K---I hope that the powers that be will provide the counseling that you and difficult child need to repair your relationship before he is released. I certainly understand your fears. I have felt them myself. But, I have learned that all I can concentrate on is today. I have to work very hard at not projecting what might happen. I think that putting negative thoughts out into the universe can sometimes make us act in a way that makes them self-fulfilling. Push for therapy to iron out your differences. Concentrate on each day and what it brings. Hugs.
  15. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Thank you both. I guess I'm looking at it like if I sit here with my mouth shut, they will no doubt not provide any therapy now and just release difficult child to come back home. I could almost guarantee it as this was the direction it was moving until I called half of them over there and told them they needed to do something now if they wanted me picking difficult child up upon release. Keep in mind, this is why we wanted Residential Treatment Center (RTC)- it was a psychiatric Residential Treatment Center (RTC) with a concentration on mental health treatment and behavioral rehabilitation. Department of Juvenile Justice is not a mental health facility so it takes something major to get them to provide anything useful in that area. If I was going around happy and positive all the time, these people wouldn't see the need to give either of us squat, I don't think. And they can completely forget their original plan of waiting until difficult child comes home then ordering all this therapy for us both so we can work on it after he's moved back in here.
  16. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Have they ever considered that difficult child has Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD)? You can have ODC where you obsess over killing someone. And it is quite common, come to find out.
  17. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    I haven't heard that, but it is a possibility. I really didn't know that would be considered Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) though. When I had him evaluation'd by the specialist, she said there were minor Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) indicators but they hadn't developed to a point of concern yet. Of course, that was about 18 mos ago.

    Another concern is how honest difficult child will be with a therapist in Department of Juvenile Justice. I probably need to make it a point that telling the truth to the therapist won't add time to his sentence and that ALL problems don't have to be completely resolved in order for him to come home.
  18. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    As another thought- another thing I can see about difficult child and this other boy- when we tried family therapy while difficult child lived here, we ALWAYS came home and had an explosive situation- just like that article indicated that the kid was angrier after that therapy session. That's exactly why I stopped it every time we tried it and why the other profs said it would have to be done with difficult child out of the home and in a secure environment.
  19. totoro

    totoro Mom? What's a GFG?

    Well one would hope that this young man could get the help he needs, and the help to figure out why he did this?
    Most likely though he will not get the help he needs or the therapy to ever help figure out these answers, while in JROTC.
    It may likely be that your son is the best therapy this kid could ever hope for while in there.

    I think our kids just get each other. There is a scientific theory in a lot of the adult books on Mental Illness that a lot of people who have Mental Illness attract others who have issues in one way or another.
    Not always the same issues but someone that is "like" them, they get each other and have a bond.
    They say that we are not even aware we do it.
    I don't know if it is a good bond or not? Likely they have a connection and it is helping them in some way.
    Hopefully it will remain positive.

    Let's hope your son is seeing the good and learning.
    I am hoping this is a good thing for all of you.