Kido not knowing when to stop!?

[lovelyboy]

Hi all.....glad to have time to pop in here a bit!

We had a difficult situation last night!!!!!

My dear son has an obsession with skate boarding at the moment.....I bought him some finger boards yesterday, so he has been practicing all kinds of moves the whole evening! He even does kick flips with the tv remote control and just can t stop telling us talking about it all the time!!!! Me and his dad were watching some tv, following a movie.....when he came in and started talking and showing us stuff....when he didn t pick up on the non verbal cues, I told him that when I turn my head away and don t react it means that I m not interested, I m watching tv....he can show us later! Then he got upset because I don t care, not inerested in him exct (still not getting it)."

his dad told him to stop this behaviuor, unfortunately to direct, so he started some anoying behaviour....His dad got all upset, later realizing he didn t handle the situation so effectively....after plenty tears and emotionality.

Is this behaviour just normal naughtiness, or is it AS traid that he doesn t realize that he needs to give other people a chance to do their own thing, he can t be centre of attraction all the time. My husband thought he is being manipulative....I disagree.

Any brave suggestions that s been tried on this?
Thanx

 

[Allan-Matlem]

Hi,

Your kid is not wanting to show you , he is looking for relationship. In order to deal with the situation effectively we need to do it out of the moment at a good time when there is good connection , he feels good about you. Then we can do some collaborative problem solving

my dear son , I have noticed that when you are very excited about something , like what you can do on the skateboard, you need to share it with us even if our minds are on tv or dad and I are talking about something , what's up ?

Ds - I like to share my excitement, I might forget to tell you , my story is more important than Tv - ( try and think of 5-6 concerns

Mom- I am very happy for you and understand you wnat to share your excitement , what you can do , I am just worried that when my mind is concentrating on tv or in our conversation with dad , it is hard for us to switch off and give you the attention you deserve. What happens is we are unable to give you attention, get distracted from what we were doing so everybody gets upset. Do you think we can find a way that you can share your excitement with us and we can give you our 100% attention

Brainstorming - you can develp a sign language where he needs to speak to you and you acknowledge this etc

In a general conversation - you can talk about a good time to do things and a not good time to do things - for eg if you are on the telephone and he needs you etc

In the moment , do your best but don't expect to be able to problem solve

I hope this helps

Allan

 

[TeDo]

practicing all kinds of moves the whole evening! He even does kick flips with the tv remote control and just can t stop telling us talking about it all the time!!!!

Obsesses on one topic of interest - - - Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)

when he didn t pick up on the non verbal cues

difficulty with social skills especially non-verbal cues - - - Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)

he can show us later! Then he got upset

expected to change mindset/things didn't go as expected - - - Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)


Your signature says anxiety (also a common symptom of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)), ODD (behaviors misinterpreted as purposeful when they could very well be a symptom of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) "been there done that") and maybe Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). After your explanation of the situation last night, I think Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) is definite. Just because this sounds so "deja vu" to me, you might want to read up on Asperger's Disorder.

 

[BusynMember]

Typical Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). My son is on the spectrum and is eighteen already. To this day, I still have to remind him not to interrupt me when I'm on the phone or when I'm talking to somebody else. To treat this as "naughty" is probably in my opinion not a good idea. It's a teaching moment. These kids do not pick up social cues and no matter how annoying it is, this is why they have a disability.

Keep us posted!

 

[MuM_of_OCD_kiddo]

I am always puzzled why so many professionals think that because a child has [or maybe has, not proven yet in this case] a mental illness or behavioral issue and the parents or care givers need to pussyfoot around bad manners or poor behavior?

I have nowhere in the post seen that the mom is not spending quality time with her children, but she wanted to spend "me time" with her husband. That does not mean that she needs to drop everything she is doing at any time to indulge her son when he feels excited about something at a given time. Unless there are serious indications that this child is severely mentally handicapped and simply cannot learn or understand [which I did not think so judging by her posts], there is no reason why restraint cannot be taught. At 7 he is old enough to understand and can certainly learn if he hasn't yet - to wait a bit for a better time.

"Honey - dad and I are watching TV. I will have a look at what you want to show me, when this show is over [or on the next commercial break]. Do you want to sit down and watch TV with us or would you rather go to your room/outside/the den/etc and play xyz or with your brother until I have time? I will come and see you in 15/30/60 mins when this is over, ok?"

And then truly get up and go see him, spend a few mins with him to let him show whatever he wanted to share, not just blowing off the kiddo. How else are they supposed to learn that they are not the "be all" all children think they are in their younger ages, and that they need to respect their parents adult times as well? in my opinion there is nothing wrong with saying "not now" to your children if they are demanding at an inconvenient time - always giving in, smoothing over, and being emotionally blackmailed for availability "or else..." teaches them that it does work to have tempertrantrums, throwing/breaking stuff, and getting bent out of shape.

I also think that many times [I said many = not all times] the pain we feel right along with them, causes us to give in to unreasonal demands or to allow poor behavior because we do feel sorry for them not being able to understand, or to properly process, or to having difficulties to do things the "correct" way. This tends to cause a shift towards being more inclined to go along in order to avoid upheaval and chaos, and not to trigger any meltdowns [and hey - I have been guilty of this as well - so I am not accusing anybody ;o) - it just is what it is!], and before long we get so embroiled in avoiding meltdowns, too wrapped up in our childrens issues and defending our own responses to theirs, and too exhausted just to make it through the day, to have a clear outlook on what is going on, and what is actually happening which would be obvious for someone on the outside looking in.

I think in this case, both of the parents should decide on a way to handle scenarios like these, and then both need to stick to the script and follow through. I have met several autistic children, others that I suspected of having Aspergers, and children with downsyndrome - some which were perfectly pleasant and well behaved in public or easily reigned in and distracted when irritated and others that were downright scary. In the former the parent were loving, soft spoken but firm when interacting with their children, in the later the parents were mostly a mess: loud, irritable and short tempered, or stressed, depressed + whiny. Interestingly - I have seen some of the first group kids behave differently [more or less intense/relaxed] with the "other" parent and to me from the outside looking in, it always seemed to be based on empathy and love perceived as well as regular firmness + calmness in their interaction with their difficult children.

 

[keista]

No, he's not being manipulative.

At 7.10 he wants and needs your attention when he asks for it. I always acknowledged (even if half heartedly) 1 showing or 1 telling of something and then told son that I was in the middle of something and he could show or tell me later the rest later. Now at 15 sometimes I blow him off completely and tell him I am unable to concentrate, because that is usually the case. Unfortunately he is starting to get into things that are completely over my head, so I often don't even understand what he's doing, and it really upsets him that I won't even try to understand.

Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) or not, I could see this situation escalating to the point it did anyway. Kids do not like being ignored, and even a child who picked up on your nonverbal cues (at age 7.10) more than likely would have DEMANDED your attention. (I know mine do!) I don't jump and give them ALL my attention, but they do get an acknowledgement of some sort (even nonverbal) that now isn't the time.

in my opinion ignoring anyone is just plain rude. If you and husband are actively ignoring him now, expect the same behavior from him in a few years. HOWEVER "putting off" accomplishes pretty much the same goal - minimal interruption of your current activity - without such intense emotional upheaval. "Putting off" is simply stating 'not now', or one finger to indicate in a minute, or a hand to indicate stop, not now. And then, for last night's situation, when a commercial comes on, you can make a more formal acknowledgement and possibly even plan for a time when he can show an tell to you. He STILL may have a difficult time with that, but in time will learn that he is NOT the center of the universe - he won't like it, but he should learn it.

 

[TeDo]

MuM, the overall tone of your post makes me think you are going through something right now. Those of us that responded to lovelyboy simply answered her question about it if could be Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). No one said they should pussyfoot around the behavior or even tolerate it. Yes, he can be taught the skills but if, in her opinion, dad actually made things worse then he didn't TEACH anything.

There are many differences even among kids with the same diagnosis. HOW you teach them matters. I have a son that was diagnosis'd with ODD for over three years. He was given every punishment in the book for not "towing the line". After all that and the appearance of SEVERE depression as a result of all the punishment, my son's diagnosis has changed to Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). The depression could have been prevented and during those years, I could have been teaching. So even though he has the same diagnosis as so many others the same age, we JUST started dealing with the behaviors in a way he can LEARN them WHILE trying to undo the depression and low self-esteem having an incorrect diagnosis has caused. difficult child couldn't "HELP" what he was doing. He hadn't been taught any differently. He IS learning now and things are getting better. I just wish I had known years ago because then maybe he would have been one of those kids that can easily be redirected and follows all directions.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Ditto. He's NOT just being manipulative.

Even if he is not on the Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) spectrum - many kids have "clinically significant findings" but "do not meet diagnostic cut-offs"... so, it can still be Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)-type traits even if he never qualifies as Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) or Aspie...

We're finding that its far safer to never assume difficult child is just trying to be difficult, etc. His needs have been ignored and/or trampled on for years, by everyone in his life - because none of us (parents, teachers, doctors) knew what was going on. As a result... he's more testy, more hyper-sensitive about relationships, needs way more interaction. When we stopped fighting this and put the focus on relationship-building (massive time-intensive undertaking...) the behavior problems have taken a nose-dive.

The only time you can "ignore" difficult child is when difficult child is sleeping... and even then, you have to be like the old sheep dog, and sleep with one ear open!

 

[Allan-Matlem]

I have said it before and echo Ross Greene's words , that most dxs are mostly descriptive and even the ones that mention skills still get people focused on the way they look bad and not under what conditions they look bad. A kid is not Aspie every minute of the day ( in any case each aspie kid is very different ) so we have to find those situations when the demands placed on the kid outstrip his skills and start working on actually solving these relaible and predictable problems.
kids are complex and often sharing lagging skills with kids of different disorders. Kids have problems with executive functions, social skills , cognitive flexibility= black white thinkers, emotional regulation , language processing skills

For sure we can teach some of these skills directly , but we would be served better if we would also start working on specific problems , not being so vague and general , gather info about the child's concerns, define the problem, brainstorm etc , not easy but the more we practice the better we and the kid get at solving problems

Mum - it is the experience here and that of Ross Greene - Plan A = you your power and asseriveness to enforce behavior does not teach lagging skills and even worse causes more meltdowns . Plan C - putting behaviors on the shelf in the meantime , helps to reduce conflict and relax the atmosphere , making it conducive to working with a kid. A kid made to look good using rewards and punishment does not last long.

Brain research shows that engaging the child's ' thinking brain ' preforontal lobes rather than the emotional or animal brain using power leads to growth and development of the brain.

It is not easy , mentors are helpful - good for thinking , building trust important so kids feel safe to learn

 

[DammitJanet]

I tend to agree with Mum to a fairly large amount. Parents (including me!) have been taught to handle our kids with kit gloves now by most therapists because we might damage them. I am so not sure that is the right advice. I was told to ignore the cussing Cory did because we had bigger issues with his behavior. Hmmm. I dont know that we changed anything and he now cusses like a sailor to boot! If I had just laid down the law on the cussing, at least maybe that issue would be less of a problem now.

7 is a hard age to know if they can wait easily. I know my 5 year old granddaughter has a hard time with this but I am adamant that she has choices. Grandma is watching this show on her TV and she can either play quietly in here with me or go in her room and watch Disney or something else or play there. Or she can go outside and play if its daytime. I dont care but she is not interrupting me. She is pretty good about this now. She wasnt so much when she was 4 but in the last 12 months she has really started to get the hang of it. Hailie though is all about her and will throw down to get attention and I dont see that changing any time soon.

Teaching to wait is something that can be done with a little work on your part. You just start slowly. He wants a cookie. In a minute dear. And make it a minute. They next time...in 5 minutes dear. And so on.

 

[lovelyboy]

Thanx all for your very insightfull feedback!

Allan....I agree with you. Dr Greens way does help learning to take place...have tried it before, but was to caught up in the emotion to think about all of this...will follow up with him so we can plan for the future!
MwM: Ditto!
MuM...my husband was feeling the same as you....that's why he got so aggitated, and in some way I agree, BUT we've learn from past experiences that this kind of handling just doesn't work...it only escalates to a tantrum or even worse! I did tell him to wait a bit...He REALLY struggles to wait, I mean REALLY. When I did that he became aggitated and making a noise.
Insane...I so agree with you! Thank goodness, the psychiatrist started mentioning Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) even after only seing my son twice! We were struggling with the same thing....was diagnosed with ODD....lead to anxiety and depression. Problem being that the way you think about "bad" behaviour and the consequent reaction is TOTALLY different for ODD and AS. Since we've been treating him more like AS things got so much better!
Me and hubby is seing psychiatrist tomorrow for parent councilling and I want to push a bit for more formal diagnosis, because our main concern is that the handling of the diagnosis is so different! That was why I also posted this question to see what you guys with ODD or ASpies and some others thought...

 

[MuM_of_OCD_kiddo]

TeDo - I was not so much responding to the Op herself, rather to a statement further up. And no - I don't have anything major going on right now with my own son - which I am entirely grateful for, LOL. Been there, done that, have a bunch of t-shirts folded and packed awy and hope not to wear them again. [One can hope right???]

While I generally zip up when it comes to difficult children with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) or Aspergers, as I don't have any true hands-on experience with it, I do have several friends and associates with children suffering from one or the other as well as other DXs - and I am just interested in seeing the different parenting coping styles to produce such different results. And yes - all children are different and no two are alike etc etc - I'm aware of that and that is not what I was referring to. I was just making the remark because I have seen parents that have set themselves certain boundaries and self preservation guidelines, having calmer and easier to deal with children, and they tend to succeed better in the long haul as well [and that goes for parents of easy child families as well]. And quite frankly - with most difficult children of any severity, you are in for the long haul and need to preserve yourself and your energy reserves and sanity as well. That is all I was saying in the previous post. It is all nice and good giving all you got for a year or two - but what after you are burned out after 2 or 3 years? What about the next 10 or more years until they are grown? What about those kids that will be with you forever because they will never reach the point of independant living? If you don't learn how to preserve your reserves and resources, then how will you parent in the long run when it all gets away from you?

 

[lovelyboy]

We had our appointment with psychiatrist yesterday, and discussed this situation.
She gave such a nice new spin on it.....ok, first of al I want to share that I did push for an diagnose, she was hesitant because she says that she doesn t like putting little kids in boxes and would like to work on symptom relieve so early that when they become 16 yr alot of the initial symptoms will be much less....she said he is def on the autism spectrum, doesn t meat the motor difficulties of aspie, but for the teacher or other therapists we can say its as, ok with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and anxiety.....

getting back to the discussion....she said that what she misses in the whole story regarding the tv exct is that the bounderies wasn t clear to start of with. that sometimes we allow interruptions during tv watching but in this situation kiddo didn t fully understand that this was a film.....and that we cant expect any little child to wait for such a long time before receiving attention. She suggested making a visuel cue, like red stop sign that we can use to show this is the no go time, tell him that we will be watching for say 10 minutes and be ademint that must be no interruptions in this time....put the timer on 10 min and then give him attention.

she also aggreed that no matter what his diagnosis was, he needs to learn to respect bounderies because that is what s expected in the outside world! and that diagnosis isn t any excuse for bad behavior.....

 

[Allan-Matlem]

I like 2 approaches for kids who have lagging skills that put them on the AS . Collaborative problem solving - together solving problems which indirectly also teaches lagging skills , so all the perspective taking, hindsight , forethought, executive functions are taught , so important not to present your solutions in a top-down manner but give the kid a chance to be the genius

RDI - relationship development intervention - use daily activity - guided participation to promote thinking and other skills

boundaries - not bad behavior but lagging skills , if bad behavior the traditional approach is to make wanna act good - rewards, punishments, consequences = external control to enforce boundaries

or the locus of control is within the kid , use cps and rdi

I get the feeling the psychiatrist thinks you don't parent well enough and views kid's behavior as choice, deliberate and manipulative - not firm, no boundaries , don't enforce consequences ,

 

[confuzzled]

getting back to the discussion....she said that what she misses in the whole story regarding the tv exct is that the bounderies wasn t clear to start of with. that sometimes we allow interruptions during tv watching but in this situation kiddo didn t fully understand that this was a film.....and that we cant expect any little child to wait for such a long time before receiving attention. She suggested making a visuel cue, like red stop sign that we can use to show this is the no go time, tell him that we will be watching for say 10 minutes and be ademint that must be no interruptions in this time....put the timer on 10 min and then give him attention.

she also aggreed that no matter what his diagnosis was, he needs to learn to respect bounderies because that is what s expected in the outside world! and that diagnosis isn t any excuse for bad behavior.....

i think this is FABULOUS, CONCRETE advice and that your dr is a wise woman. a visual cue is an excellent idea.

and i'm not sure why this advice is construed as a reflection on a parenting style--she asked for a suggestion, and got it. personally, i love the fact that the doctor took it as a valid concern and didnt brush it off--and made actual, easy to implement suggestions.

 

[Allan-Matlem]

Hi,
my comments about parenting styles refers to calling not respecting boundaries as bad behavior rather than lagging skills calling for parents to unilaterally set limits and boundaries and enforce them with rewards and punishments rather than teaching a kid internal control

allan

 

[lovelyboy]

i think this is FABULOUS, CONCRETE advice and that your dr is a wise woman. a visual cue is an excellent idea.

I also thought this was great! What I appreciate about this psychiatrist....I go with my LONG list of things I want answered and when we walk away, she usualy answered as much as we could fit into the hour!....Yes I think she is a wise woman....she raised 5 kids, and survived! LOL