Kids can not be diagnosis'd BiPolar (BP), nor Mood-Disorder...

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by totoro, Feb 14, 2008.

  1. totoro

    totoro Mom? What's a GFG?

    My husband is taking a walk... I am drinking a Mocktail and eating chocolate...
    OK, What???
    Do you just Follow the DSM-IV guidelines??? Or do you agree that young children can indeed have cycling maybe even rapid cycling? Indicative of a Mood Disorder or Early Onset Bi-Polar (EOBP) showing that the symptoms can be different for kids than adults?

    "I don't believe children can have Bipolar Disorder" Under the DSM-IV criteria... children do not meet the criteria...
    K is not BiPolar (BP) nor does she have a Mood Disorder...

    He went on to explain that only in the US do we over diagnosis BiPolar (BP)... It is really just ADHD, Anxiety, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) or some other explanation... That in fact the whole genetic "thing" is just a myth!!! and only 10-15% of people who are BiPolar (BP) are will have children that are BiPolar (BP)...

    All of the people that are writing these books and pushing these diagnosis's are wrong. In so many words...

    He also does not agree on most of the MS... he listed off almost all of them and said they are not approved nor regulated for kids...
    He wants to put K back on either Tenex or Clonidine... then a stimulant... take her off of Lamictal.
    I said what about the Tenex inducing Rages, depression, aggression, violence, no sleep??? He said well we can try it and wait to if it goes away... But lets think about Clonidine then... I said well what about Clonidine knocking her out???
    He said well we can quarter it??? I said UH how??? I guess I can try that!!!
    I then said Ok, So if we were to try the Clonidine, and then add a stimulant, like Adderral, Ritalin or Dexedrine, what happens if she has a reaction???

    I said does the mean anything? He said NO, it just means she can't use that stimulant, and we would use another, I said and what if that triggers a reaction, he said same thing, we use another, I said and what if she does not tolerate stims at all and she does horrible on them all???
    He said it means nothing...

    He said just because someone does well on Lithium does not mean they are BiPolar (BP)...

    He did not change her diagnosis... he just basically took her Mood Disorder-not otherwise specified away because he does not believe in it!!! He did not spend a lot of time with her... I asked about her hallucinations, Oh anxiety, He had an answer for everything... I said so you are discounting every other psychiatrist who believes in Early Onset Bi-Polar (EOBP)...? He just said I don't think you can diagnosis nor can a child have BipolarDisorder... I think he feels it is a fad...

    I felt like yelling at him, what about when they felt ADHD was a fad, or Autism was a fad... Well FAD YOU!!!

    It isn't even that I care if K is BiPolar (BP), It is that he is just totally discounting it... how can he say there is no young kids who are BiPolar (BP)??? Or who have Mood Disorders or who are helped with MS???
    It would be like me saying, well if your kid does not line up his toys he is not Autistic, sorry... Not in the DSM... If Johnny is making eye contact he can't be Autistic. NOPE!!!

    And now I have to listen to my mother in law try to tell me to be positive when she gets here on Saturday...
    UGH!!! What do we do now???
    I did go on-line and there a bunch of psychiatrist's here... we have a call into one.

    Oh and the other **** factor, poor K woke up this morning after not sleeping again... Her EYES were swollen SHUT!!!
    I kept telling them to stay out of the plants... her and N must have touched something and rubbed their eyes... N's are kind of red and irritated but K's are swollen shut!!!
    Luckily we were going to the hospital...
    He looked at them and agreed... We gave her Benydryl... poor thing, she has blisters also!!!

    HAPPY FRICKEN VALENTINES!!! They did get to make little cupcakes though...

    I feel like I am losing my mind...
    I am just going to crawl into a hole...or go live in the mountains with a bunch of burros...
  2. smallworld

    smallworld Moderator

    T, I'm sorry.

    This doctor is wrong. While I understand not wanting to diagnosis a 7-year-old with BiPolar (BP) -- it is after all a lifelong diagnosis -- there is absolutely no reason not to diagnosis a 7-year-old with Mood Disorder-not otherwise specified if that is indeed how she presents. My two oldest kids have that diagnosis because they have exhibited depression, mania, anxiety and mood instability. Their psychiatrists do not want to give them the BiPolar (BP) diagnosis because they don't know how they will look as adults. But my kids are still being treated using BiPolar (BP) algorithms. This approach seems responsible and reasonable to me.

    Treating K with ADHD medications when she clearly has mood issues going on seems irresponsible to me. It feels as if this psychiatrist is back in the dark ages when every kid who comes along with an issue has ADHD. I hate to say it, but you need to find another psychiatrist.

  3. tiredmommy

    tiredmommy Well-Known Member


    Some people still think the Earth is flat, too. It doesn't make them right. I don't understand how some people think. {{{Hugs}}}
  4. SRL

    SRL Active Member

    Oh my...this is not what I expected to hear as an outcome at all.

    Can you check Yahoo BiPolar (BP) groups in that area for a psychiatrist recommencation so you aren't cold calling psychiatrists?
  5. totoro

    totoro Mom? What's a GFG?

    I am pretty frustrated right now!!! I just kept asking him about all of her presenting symptoms??? And he just pawned them off to ADHD and Anxiety and and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) like things... I said well what about co-morbid disorders... MYTH... it is not BiPolar (BP) or mood-disorder...
    And like I said, at this point you can keep the darn, BiPolar (BP) diagnosis and the Mood Disorder diagnosis, just give her the medications she needs if she is out of control!!!
    I am so at a loss...
    What is really sad is that he is really nice and he was really good with K.
    It was like the great divide!!! The ADHD'ers against the BiPolar (BP)'ers...

    At this point I am ready to take her off of the Lamictal and give the poor kid a break from medications and docs... Seriously!!!
    husband and I have had it!!!
    I don't know what to do??? Either that or we go against everything I believe and give her stims... maybe it works?
    And go from there. But I just did not like his all or nothing though proccess.

    I may take the first choice... I feel like we are done. I was just standing there crying in husband arms, why, can't we just get a break for her? She keeps asking me why her brain feels this way??? What do you say to your kid???
  6. smallworld

    smallworld Moderator

    I know you feel like giving up, but you owe it to K and to yourselves to keep going.

    You might want to look at that list of mood disorder clinics in The Bipolar Child book and make an appointment at one of them.

    I'm so sorry. Hugs going out again.
  7. Bugsy

    Bugsy New Member

    Oh totoro,
    You know I get your feelings. You wrote and supported me. I am so there with you. I have no words of wisdom.

    I start ever meeting saying he has a diagnosis of mood disorder-not otherwise specified. Some would say it is BiPolar (BP) others would say absolutely can't be. I say I don't care what you call it. His name is **** and we need to help him. We all agree he needs help and we need to try what makes the most SENSE for a child that exhibits rages, meltdowns, no focus, etc etc.

    After many wrong turns and seeing the wrong doctors I finally said I must trust myself and be his case manager.

    Do what makes sense to you. Do what seems right. Even if it is not the "right" thing you will always try what makes sense at the time and not because of someone else's agenda to prove a diagnosis is real or not.

    In my thoughts and wishing the best,
    Bugsy's mom
  8. uncheerleader

    uncheerleader Pollyanna

    Don't you just love the all or nothing kind?!?! Just do what you think is right for now and try another doctor.
    I wish that I had learned about mood disorders 15 years ago!! Then maybe my difficult child wouldn't have swung into the deep despair that he did. We finally found the right Psychiatrist about 4 months ago. He is much better now!! (more good days than bad).
    I think that you are so lucky to have one so young that is able to articulate to you what she is feeling!!
    Mine couldn't do that until he was 16. Keep trying with the doctor or find someone new.

    Good Luck, and hang in there!!

  9. Jena

    Jena New Member


    i read your post 3 times just now, i'm in a quiet place both kids are down i think they feel bad cause im sick tonight......:)

    anyway i am so sorry that you are sad right now and are going through this.

    i can imagine you wanted so very much from this entire thing.

    bear with me a second on this one. it is true that the united states is overdiagnosing this BiPolar (BP) thing as of late. there is alot of controversery surrounding it as i'm sure we all know.

    as you said it doens't matter at this point what k has, it's getting her the relief that she needs desperately that is your concern clearly.

    what if for a moment instead of allowing his words to shock you, you just take it in with your drink and chocolate let husband go unwind with a walk. what if you were to take his advice regarding the chlonidine and the other medication he mentioned?

    honestly i don't know if i belive in this bi polar thing either. i do believe that children can exhibit tons of different symptoms and have various issues yet BiPolar (BP) without any large substantiated evidence readily available at this point cannot be proven at least to me. they think it's handed down genetically, they think it is alot of different factors that play in together. i think mental illness is what it is. i also think logically add and adhd and anxiety can throw one's emotions completely off, their focus make them go from happy to sad depending on the environment their in the noise level, people, etc. it can look alot like BiPolar (BP).

    i think i'm believing more now in treating the symptoms and not worrying about the diagnosis also.

    i don't know all of k's history so please bare with me in that regard. i know you are doing all you can yet i don't know if you've tried this approach before (the chlonidine and medication' mix hes' suggesting).

    if he's good with k don't run away so fast is my advice. he sounds very cut and dry. alot of doctors out there do not belive in BiPolar (BP) and there are right here in the states.

    i hope this made sense to you somewhat i'm drinking tea and eating chocolate and coughing at same time. :)

    hope your drink was good and you've had time to digest all of this a little bit.

    my thoughts are with you
  10. As yall can see iam a newbie ha ha just was wondering if there is a place to go to give me an idea on what all these abbriv. are??????????????
  11. CrazyinVA

    CrazyinVA Well-Known Member Staff Member

    OMG. I don'teven know what to say to this. I hope you find another doctor quickly. Run, dont walk.
  12. Wiped Out

    Wiped Out Well-Known Member Staff Member

    ((((hugs)))) I'm so sorry for the frustration you are dealing with. All or nothing? Definitely seems like his mind is closed.
  13. totoro

    totoro Mom? What's a GFG?

    Um, B I think if you Look under Frequently Asked Questions... it should be under abbreviations... good luck!!!
  14. house of cards

    house of cards New Member

    So sorry, I know you were expecting better. I feel in the same boat, a label doesn't matter...unless the treatments go in opposite directions, ugh.
  15. totoro

    totoro Mom? What's a GFG?

    I am in the middle of a Genetic Study with JBRF and the Papolos' I guess this is all the more reason why I have spent Months and Months and hours on the phone with his asst... even though I will never know my own personal outcome... Just to be approved was very difficult. But if it can help prove anything... for any kids in the future so we can avoid this... for anyone. It is worth it.
    I am just sick...
  16. jannie

    jannie trying to survive....

    I am so sorry...I don' t even know what to say....I can't believe he doesn't actually believe children can have BiPolar (BP) or mood disorders....Who recommended this doctor? I know you've been searching and searching...I'm crushed for you and for husband and for K and N...It seems like he wants to start with step 1 with the medications...ugh..

    Please clarify for me...When are you actually moving? Did you find any other doctors in the area? Has K been able to go to school these days? What about her riding?

    Sending hugs...
  17. Big Bad Kitty

    Big Bad Kitty lolcat

    Oh babe, my heart is breaking for you and your family. I am so sorry.

    You know, I don't speak up much about docs and medications because that is not my area of expertize, Tink is on the Abilify and is doing pretty good in it alone. But whether this guy ends up being right or wrong is not even the point. To not feel listened to, to feel completely discounted, after all you have gone through with this poor kid, has got to feel like a punch in the gut.

    Just the biggest hugs I got. And lots of muahs.
  18. Liahona

    Liahona Active Member

    I think Big Bad Kitty has a very good point. You and the psychiatrist need to be able to come to an agreement on something you feel comfortable with. difficult child 1 had a psychiatrist (we've been threw several) who I never felt really answered my questions. We ended up having to switch because of this. He is a great psychiatrist. Our personalities just didn't mesh.

    By the way, one thing all the psychiatrists we've been to have agreed on is that difficult child 1 is bi-polar. But he is right about it not being in the DSM IV. I thought I read some where that in the next edition they'll change it. Won't that be a shocker for that psychiatrist?
  19. Sara PA

    Sara PA New Member

    1. No drugs are regulated for children. The FDA doesn't regulate drugs specifically for children. Once a drug is approved for any indication for any population, 99.9% of the time it can be legally prescribe to anyone for anything.

    2. ALL the mood stabilizers have been tested on and approved for use by children for at least one indication, though not likely bipolar. The only mood stabilizers are Tegretol/Trileptal, Depakote Lamictal (all anticonvulsants and all approved for use by children of all ages for the treatment of epilepsy) and lithium (which, IIRC, is approved for use by children 12 and over).

    3. Antipsychotics are not mood stabilizers. That said, Risperdal has been approved for use by children with schizophrenia.

    4. Tenex and Clondine are not approved for use by children under twelve for any indication.
  20. totoro

    totoro Mom? What's a GFG?

    Thank you all...
    Exactly wasn't like I was looking or even asking that from him. I luckily asked him today that question... What his views are on this.
    Stupid me!!! I thought at the very least, even though I realize a lot feel (even one of the biggest our first psychiatrist1) did not like to diagnosis BiPolar (BP) to young kids, because of the DSM criteria and she did not the BiPolar (BP)-not otherwise specified diagnosis either... so we went the Mood Disorder-not otherwise specified.
    But I thought at least you treat the most prevalent symptoms, and YEAH we all know the medications are not proven for kids, spare me the details... and we all know that they are not tested on kids...
    But the fact is that he just flat out was like, NO. I don't agree with it and I don't agree with giving most of those medications to kids and on and on... I was but, but , but ... what about, but , what about ???

    What about all of these kids that are being helped? Call them whatever you want, but what about them? What about all of the ADHD, Anxiety/Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) on Mood Stabilizers??? What are they? FREAKS????

    Oh someone help us all...

    Jannie, the move is on hold pending finding a psychiatrist!!! HA HA... School... well we go when we go... Kindergarten is not mandatory in Idaho. We probably learn more at home than at school. We have lots of reading time, "school" books, Kumon books, flash cards etc... We have nature time were we go outside with Audobon books and explore... I inform her teacher, she could care less!!!
    We have found a couple of schools that are so nice here and are meeting with an education consultant next week...
    She is like the Super-Nanny... for Schools and Parents. She will actually spend the night at your house and help you make decissions based on your needs for parenting mods and school needs... She was a Principal for 19 years and is an advocate. She has a really cool blog and is super into the whole system here and the kids.

    We have also found some great riding here!!! We may go next week also.
    We have a couple calls into some psychiatristS for next week... So we will see. We really like it here... I don't know.