Last night was awful

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by Kjs, Jan 22, 2009.

  1. Kjs

    Kjs Guest

    It was the most awful meeting. He (husband) said things that are so NOT true. But he believes it. He honestly believes it. I can say it is not true, I can say I DID do that, yet he says I am lying and I did not.

    Still denies the phone thing. Even when I have it printed in my hand.

    It was like a screaming match of accusations and insults. Both ways. Think it was more him to me, but can't be sure it was so bad.

    therapist interrupted many times. Just ended up back at the screaming. He said we have a great kid. But living in an environment like this would cause anyone to be anxious let alone a kid.

    After it was all said and done, therapist asked what ONE thing I wanted husband to do. I said be involved in difficult child's education. He asked me three times I said the same thing. Apparently that isn't what he wanted. So he asked it a different way. I said I want husband to pay the bills. I don't want that job. And as many times as I have told him he keeps sayind "SHE LOVES THAT". That came up several times and I told him over and over that NO I do NOT like that. Yet, again and again he said I did. I looked at therapist and said, TELL him I do not like it. husband then said how his dad died and he was on his own and he paid his own bills, blah, blah. Still, when therapist asked him if HE could do that, husband would go around it. Finally after about 5 times asking, husband said yes.

    husband was nasty, had a snotty attitude. I was sitting there crying and I looked at him and he made a FACE at me. I asked him why. He said because of the way I was looking at him. I was just looking at him so hurt and crushed and crying. But because of that he makes a face at me.

    therapist asked husband what one thing he would like me to do. Several times. husband said LESS yelling. I said I can do that if he backs me up. If he isn't snotty and mean. Then husband says see, all she does is yell.

    therapist did ask husband...many years ago when you married her did you love her. He was quiet, then said yes. I just shook my head because I don't remember ever being loved. therapist asked him WHEN things started getting bad. husband answered correctly. When difficult child was born.

    I have more to say but my head is pounding right now, and tears are running down my face. It was awful. Just awful. He cut me off, said things that aren't true and would not let me respond. Just like when we are at home. That is why I start yelling.

    difficult child has his appointment today. 1/2 day of school then right to therapist. But it is 20 miles away.

    Final exams for difficult child. He is really upset. Don't know if he will pass all his classes. He waits until the very end and then tries to get in missing work, loses it, whatever. I am sure he will be upset if when I have to mention studying today.

    Can I post later? Even if you are just sick of hearing from me? Can I say more of what went on? I don't want to bore you all, you have so much of your own lives to have to think/read about mine.

    But, right now, I have to talk to a neighbor that is at my door waiting for me.
    be back.
  2. ML

    ML Guest

    I feel confident I can speak for everyone by saying "YES" please post as much and as often as you want/need to. We are here for you. You have a lot of people who care about you and are here for you. Hugs, ML
  3. house of cards

    house of cards New Member

    I'm so sorry the therapist didn't keep better control of your meeting. I'm sorry you were attacked with lies rather then a remorseful h ready to work things out, there is no excuse on his part.
  4. janebrain

    janebrain New Member

    Yes, please do post--we are all here for you and believe me, you are not boring us! I just have one thing to ask though--why are you staying with this man?!
  5. hearts and roses

    hearts and roses Mind Reader


    You and H have a set pattern of how you communcate with one another and it's going to take some time and expertise on the part of your counselor to help you each find a new and healthier way to communicate.

    In the meantime, it will most definitely be difficult. IF you BOTH feel you want to fix your marriage, there will be a lot of hurts and insults and pains dredged up and dealt with before you can get to the 'repair' part.

    HUgs to you - please post again and let it all out. We're here to support you as best as we can.
  6. artana

    artana New Member


    I am proud of you for going, and I think you need to find a new therapist. It sounds like he did not control the interaction, bring up different ways for you guys to communicate, or stop negative statements. He should have been guiding the entire encounter to try to get information without so much attacking.

    I think you are on the right track. You need to talk, you need to say exactly how you feel because you are a human being with feelings too. I think it is still a positive that your H showed up...even if it was aweful for you, any therapist you are with will slowly see what is becoming evident, that your H has a totally different version of reality.

    by the way: kjs, this is what happened to me exactly. Look up narcissism, the clinical diagnosis. It really sounds like your H has it, and that could explain why things went bad after difficult child was born, because you were suddenly devoting energy to someone other than him. That is classic narcissist.

    *hugs* You can always post and we will always listen.
  7. Star*

    Star* call 911

    OMG THIS IS HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!

    And I will have to say - whether you think it or even want to hear it. THE FACT THAT YOUR husband WENT at ALL says he WANTS TO FIX THINGS TOO -

    But neither of you know how to fight fair.

    Yelling - getting faces made at you - avoiding things - this is all part of the healing process. I know it hurts you - and I know you are breaking inside. I know you don't want to have to do this, wonder why you are even doing this and just wish that one session would make him see how hurt you are. Doesn't happen that way -
    What does happen if you both stick with the program is that you learn to fight fair, find common ground again sometimes even quickly where there is NONE now. OR you keep going to these sessions and one of you decides that you don't want to do the work involved in saving your relationship, that you're not willing to change - and the other partner sees this VERY CLEARLY - and makes plans to move on.

    IT didn't get broke over night - it won't get fixed overnight - but I maintain - at least he went. Some men/women actually GO to therapy not to fix things but to show the therapist that the partner is really "nuts, crazy, out of control." and they figure if they go and a professional see's THEIR point of view with the partner in therapy yelling and carrying on etc? That they are vindicated for behaving like they do. What usually happens to those types of partners? The therapist spots the "baiting" and "cajoling" and "manipulation" to start the parnter or set the fire and it becomes evident to any trained eye very quickly - what exactly is going on.

    Once caught? That type of person either benefits from a wise therapist who can talk to them on their level with reverse manipulation or they stop going, get up and leave a session and do not return. Those that truly want help? Stay. So keep that in mind because even if he leaves? You keep going and get some self confidence under your belt or get some advice on how to actually talk to your hubby. Sounds crazy - but a lot of times we forget how to speak effectively to other people.

    Some of my problem with Dude was that I really thought what was coming out of my mouth in disagreement to his behaviors was justifiable. In part it was - but WHAT you say isn't as effective as HOW you say it. Think about it like this - on the most basic level....(this made me laugh when I heard it spoken out loud)

    You have a puppy - you want the puppy to come to you. So you (being 5' taller than a puppy and towering over it) you say in a nice soft tone "come here fella." and in your mind you see a puppy, wagging, and thinking OH that sounded nice - I'll try to understand and walk towards her. Now the same scenario, puppy, yard, you want it to come to you and you tower over that puppy and in a nasty, ugly, growling, short tempered voice you bellow "COME HERE" nearly screaming at that same pup.
    Which would you be more tempted to listen to?

    Couples WITHOUT difficult child's can have a rough marriage. Finances, daily grind, health issues all make us -all, irritable. How other people treat us and how they "call their puppy" can either make or break a day. Couples with difficult child's have it very rough, and our kids are relentless and wear us down. WE can drift apart for a number of reasons and sometimes even forget why we fell in love.

    Therapy helps you and your husband work at fixing that -one problem at a time. You noticed the therapist didn't say "Okay now list the top 10 things you need husband to do." he said "What one thing sticks out the most?" and you had an answer. What I think you'll be doing over the next week is thinking about "WAS THAT really the ONE thing I want the most?" and maybe by next session you'll both have a different answer - BUT the fact that NOW without a doubt - you've both answered what you felt was the one thing EACH OF YOU could change? You BOTH have a chance to work on that one thing FOR yourself and FOR each other all week.

    When you go back next week? - How do you think your husband will be answering "Do you think she yelled less this week?" and how do you think he'll be answering "Did he help you with paying the bills?"

    I think you're on your way. Effective communication, fighting fair and learning that I was NOT always mostly rrrrr....wwwwww.....right even thought I thought I was....helped our house stand united to do battle against a very manipulative child.

    I hope you find the peace you are seeking - all of you.

    And you just get a box of Kleenex and dish and process away -

    WE ARE HERE FOR YOU! (sorta like your own little cheering section)

    -except for Totoro - she's out catching you butterflies. ;)
  8. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    I am so sorry that you had such a difficult experience. I can hear and feel the pain in you. I have to say though, H's actions and responses that you describe reveal a whole lot of evidence that he has some serious issues and that you are deeply hurt by them, in my humble opinion, and any therapist worth anything should have been able to see that. If this was your first time all meeting together, the therapist should be able to keep better control next time. If last night's meeting was just to find out the problem, it appears successful.
  9. Shari

    Shari IsItFridayYet?

    Stick with the therapist and post all you like. I am so sorry you have to deal with this. Many hugs.
  10. hearts and roses

    hearts and roses Mind Reader

    I just want to throw out there that many times when a counselor meets a couple for the first time, he/she does not interfere all that much because he/she is trying to see how the couple normally interact with one another. It helps to see that up close and naturally so he/she can help them to come up with a 'fight fair' set of rules and communication guidelines.

    When H and I went to counseling the first time as a couple, our counselor just let us go, the only rule being we could each speak for a full 5 minutes without the other interrupting. At the next meeting she gave us a 'fight fair' sheet on which has several rules to try and follow at home - these were very helpful, although we both broke them once in a while.

    Anyway, before your throw in the towel with this counselor, you may want to figure out if he was just trying to get a feel for how your communicate NOW and how he can help you in that regard for the future - to help you improve your communication to become more effective.
  11. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    Of course. Post all you like.


    Star is right. Someone has got to start the ball rolling. No matter how angry you are, you know you will be the one, because you are strong. You can stop the yelling and you can stand strong and calm at the next mtng and be proud to say you did a great job this week.
    It will be one of the hardest things you have ever done. But you know it's not solving things right now so it will be a good change.
    Your husband is (excuse me for saying this, I'm just going off of what you typed) immature, irresponsible and hurting. You've got to lead the way.
    Eventually, he will turn around.
    I'm guessing he will, or you wouldn't have married him to begin with. There have to be some good qualities that are latent in there somewhere.
    The therapist sounds like he needs to be more firm. Sigh.

    I've been through this.
    One thing we did was learn to repeat what the other person said, to make sure we understood it. It's a form of parrotting. It makes you feel like an idiot but it usually works. husband hates it because he thinks I'm making fun of him or that I'm not listening, like I'm a slow child. "So, what you're saying is that I yell too much."
    "Of COURSE you yell too much! Why can't you hear what I'm saying!?"
    (Uh, I thought I just did that ... )
    It's supposed to be a form of active listening.
    Clearly, when your husband is making faces at you, it is NOT active listening.

    I am so glad you are seeing a therapist. It will really help. At first it seems to open raw wounds and make it worse, but if you two really work on it, it will help.

    One thing I do is roll my eyes. Bad habit. Got to stop that. ;)

    I'll keep checking here to see if you're back.
    Keep breathing.
  12. dreamer

    dreamer New Member so sad for your pain. pm me.......i will take you before or after your work for coffee coke ice cream whatever & I will listen. you name the when & where & unless easy child is in labor....i will be treat of course.
  13. Lothlorien

    Lothlorien Active Member Staff Member

    I don't really agree with Star(sorry Star) about him wanting to fix things. I think he went because you harped and harped on it. I think the man is dillusional...especially after denying the proof-in-hand regarding the phone bill. I think he's acutally convinced himself that there is absolutely nothing wrong on his end, and it's all your fault.

    I could be wrong, but that's my feeling from all you've described.

    I'm really glad that you went. I hope that regardless of the outcome of therapy sessions, you will be working less and enjoying life more...with or without him.
  14. hearts and roses

    hearts and roses Mind Reader

    I agree with you Loth. When I asked my H to go to counseling the second time around, he had thoroughly convinced himself that I was the crazy one, I was over reacting and just trying to find things wrong with him. He also felt that once the therapist heard him out, he would be vindicated. Hahah, well, the joke was on him, because I even agreed to see a man that time and the Dr told H he would do himself a favor by getting into some type of program such as AA and that he while he never likes to blame one partner or the other, it was clear to him that H had some issues that needed to be addressed before we could move forward. Now, if I bring this up with H, he flatly denies the counselor ever said it, but the counselor did.

    I nagged my exh for 3.5 years to join me in counseling. Every week, I'd stop at the door and ask him if he wanted to join me and every week, he said no while staring straight at the tv as easy child played around on the floor. No amount of nagging would get them there.

    They have to want to go and *hopefully* it's for the right reasons....though I believe at first it's usually for their own reasons rather than yours.
  15. Lothlorien

    Lothlorien Active Member Staff Member

    Yep, I was thinking that exact thing, but couldn't come up with the words to describe it. You said it perfectly.
  16. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Post all you need to. It does help to get it out, and can help even more to get others perspectives on it.

    I agree, you and husband have never learned to fight "fair". And it shows. Fighting can be good and constructive when done fairly, or demeaning and horribly destructive when it's unfair.

    I set ground rules on "fighting" with husband. No name calling. In 25+ years of marriage and all of the crappola husband has pulled (you wouldn't believe) I've never resorted to calling him a name. Nor him me. Because if he did, he'd be out the door before he could get "I'm sorry" off his lips.

    I have an issue with saying you "love" someone while you disrespect that person, even if it's just name calling. in my opinion, the two do not go together, period.

    husband and I do not raise our voices. I can think of less than a handful of times we have. I don't like shouting matchs and refuse to participate. I'll shut up first. And husband can egg me on as much as he wants and I won't utter a sound. That's when he knows he's in deep deep trouble.

    Why do I shut up?? Cuz he's not listening anyway. I might as well be shouting at the wall. So why expend the energy?? It only makes me madder which only makes things worse.

    Another rule I have.....and this is mainly for me, as husband doesn't do it........I don't "nag". I don't rehash things over and over. husband is a grown up, either he "gets" it or he doesn't. I watched my Mom nag her way into 4 divorces, 3 of which weren't even necessary. And she'd gotten so used to nagging......that she wasn't even aware she was doing it. So I simply refuse to do it.

    Which is why my patio tables are still sitting in the front yard from our yard sale that was last July. I will not nag. Also, I can't move them by myself. And I won't move them because I asked husband twice to do so. And yeah, I'm stubborn as any mule. lol

    Kjs, my husband is on the high road to becoming single after I get my nursing degree. (he owes me that much) I don't hold this over his head. I don't even imply it. A few years back there were terms that were put down in order for me to allow the marriage to continue. husband so far hasn't lived up to any of them. No sense in nagging him. My mind was made up the day the terms were laid out. If by some miracle he can "shape up" before I graduate.....well, then we'll see.

    But husband has a choice. And he is the only one who can make that choice. I can't make it for him. Instead, I had to decide for myself what I wanted out of my life, what I wanted out of marriage and my partner. Then decide what I was going to do to get it. We can only control ourselves. Our spouses are their own individual person, grown ups who can only make their own choices.

    My marriage is in the toilet. There is no intimacy and hasn't been for years. I'm ok with that, at peace with it. husband could run right out and have 50 affairs and I wouldn't blink an eye. I just don't care. Period. He could walk out the front door right now and I wouldn't shed a tear. I don't care.

    husband doesn't take me seriously. He attempts to pretend that all is well. I treat him with respect......and that's it. He already knows what he should be doing. I'm done repeating.

    Words mean nothing without the actions to back them up.

    I know this has got to be so hard for you. Sending you lots of (((((hugs)))))
  17. gcvmom

    gcvmom Here we go again!

    You could have taken that scene from husband's and MY first counseling session several years ago! Not surprised it went that way at all. Star and others are right that it's a huge sign that he was even willing to go and went. His reasons may not have been the same as yours, but he must have felt that going could have accomplished something. Otherwise, why go, and why is he even still in the marriage?

    In order for change to happen, people have to be removed from their comfort zone, and counseling tends to do that by forcing us to take a hard inventory of ourselves. I hope that the path you are on leads you to peace and happiness, with or without him.
  18. totoro

    totoro Mom? What's a GFG?

    You are still strong, for standing up for yourself. This is step one, regardless of where this step takes you. Just keep stepping, forward... each step will get you going in the direction you want. It will take time but look to the future.
    I am so proud of you for going last night. It sounds like it was so hard, you are so vulnerable right now and he knows how to hurt you, he has to! He has been with you for so long and has been hurting you for too long.
    I don't know what the answers are or what your goals should be...
  19. rejectedmom

    rejectedmom New Member

    Counseling should get easier as you go along. My husband didn't really participate he just tried to choose up sides like a kid playing a neighborhood game of ball. He wanted to stack the game in his favor and I just kept quiet for a while at first until I couldn't keep my mouth shut and I dropped a bomb. The counsellor was amazed and happy that I had spoken up and given him a more clear picture of the dynamics of my marriage. husband was very mad at me he. He barely spoke to me on the way home. When he did he asked me why I told the therapist what I had. I replied because I wanted him to know the whole truth so he could help us. husband only went back two more times. That action spoke volumes to both me and the therapist. husband was not going to change. So I went and the therapist taught me ways to get what I need within the framework of the marriage. Emotional intimacy isn't something husband can give so I have my best friend, my sisters, and my daughter for that. I learned to hire out or trade services for things such as babysitting and gardening and alike when husband refuses to do his share around the house. The list goes on but that isn't important.

    My point is that each couple has different expectations, needs, and compromises they are willing to make. Your therapist should help you and your husband sort all that out and find compromises both of you can live with. He will also help you both identify "the deal breakers" that will determine the fate of your marriage. Ultimately his job is to guide you both to a happier way of life which does not necessarily mean preserving the marriage.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2009
  20. Star*

    Star* call 911

    Hey!;) - I covered that - I never mind if someone disagrees with me. I think that makes it interesting and debatable.

    Anyway - look here - see what I wrote above? But I do agree with you and Jo. I think he is dilusional AND I think he has an overinflated sense of self-worth. I also think he's beaten your self esteem down to non-existance kjs. You can be self-confidant, but tis' not the same as self-worth.

    IT didn't get broke over night - it won't get fixed overnight - but I maintain - at least he went. Some men/women actually GO to therapy not to fix things but to show the therapist that the partner is really "nuts, crazy, out of control." and they figure if they go and a professional see's THEIR point of view with the partner in therapy yelling and carrying on etc? That they are vindicated for behaving like they do. What usually happens to those types of partners? The therapist spots the "baiting" and "cajoling" and "manipulation" to start the parnter or set the fire and it becomes evident to any trained eye very quickly - what exactly is going on.

    I think there are (could be wrong too) but I think there are three scenarios.
    1.) They both go - they both listen - they save their marriage.
    2.) She goes, works on the weekly lessons - he goes but does nothing because he's only going to prove he's RIGHT - nothing wrong with me syndrome. Therapist sees this, guides KJS towards independence, self worth and eventually she also starts to see this and makes a plan for the rest of HER life.
    3.) She goes, works on weekly lessons for what she can do for herself- he stops or never goes because he doesn't feel a need to prove he's right AND there is nothing wrong with him. KJS figures out she has a life to live outside of her existing and makes plans for the rest of her life.

    That's the options I was given anyway - by the way - I picked option 3.

    I guess there is a 4th - but that would involve both of them not going and not doing anything and remaining in the same rut they are in now for the rest of their days because they're both so stubborn neither is willing to admit they both have issues that need work. I think KJS is a very intelligent woman and won't pick that option. ;)