Medicines to treat ODD?

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by allhaileris, Jul 31, 2012.

  1. allhaileris

    allhaileris Crumbling Family Rock

    daughter saw a Developmental pediatrician. last week. husband said she didn't get a prescrip, she has to look through the paperwork and results still. Going back on 8/8. She wrote down Impulse Control, Mood Stabilizer and ODD. She asked if she's hypersexual, which she is. husband thinks she asked this because I suggested Risperidol, which husband looked up and it says it could make that worse. Based on those three things, and the fact one of the biggest issues we're having right now is lying, what medicines would she be prescribed? I want to look them up before we go and have knowledge of them to be able to talk to her about them so we can get the medications going.

    Also, because husband started looking these medications up, he's been backing off from agreeing that she needs medications. He's such a d*mn hippie that he can't see how much it would benefit her. He wants to give her natural stuff. I told him if the doctor recommends something natural, I'll go with it, but I think she needs anti-psychotics. She's going to hit puberty soon and it'll probably get worse.

    I'd like to hear "my kid has similar traits, and he/she is on x drug, and it makes these symptoms better and causes these side effects", and knowing fully that every kid is different and medications affect everybody differently.
  2. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    ODD... has, at least in my experience, NO guidance as far as therapies, interventions, accommodations OR medications.
    It's part of why ODD is such a "useless" diagnosis. (we've used it as a placeholder until we found the "real" problem.)

    We got nowhere with behavior, until we got to the real root of the problems.
    For example, in our case (not necessarily related to your daughter), one of the biggest behavior changers was... getting the personal FM system to deal with difficult child's Auditory Processing Disorders (APD). That removed so much frustration and mental exhaustion, that he started coping with other things better. I'm only giving this as an example of the chicken-and-egg issue of dealing with behavior problems.

    Sensory issues, for example, have a huge impact - and the solution is usually therapies, interventions and accommodations.

    Dxes like Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) and Asperger's often result in ODD as a label, but the Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)/Aspie label provides far more guidance on all fronts. How you parent the child, how you present things, how you teach, are all very different if they are on the spectrum (or even have "traits").
  3. allhaileris

    allhaileris Crumbling Family Rock

    She may have a personality disorder. Her school psychiatric said it's too early to diagnosis her, but it's highly probable. There is something in her brain that makes her just NOT CARE (which I though was part of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)). Something else that makes her lie, even if she doesn't mean to do it (and will correct herself sometimes immediately, sometimes never). Her problems at school are mostly social, because of the Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD).

    What's an FM system?

    Her sensory issues are improving, so I'm not worried about that. We have ways to deal with it when it gets bad and have been shown some techniques that work well on her (bear hugs, back rubs, a long tube of lycra she can crawl into).
  4. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    "personal FM system"... if a person has problems processing sound (not a hearing problem, although some have that in addition), it is an Auditory Processing Disorders (APD) - there are a range of these, with different problems. The "personal FM system" is a microphone the teacher wears, and a receiver in the child's ear. The volume is set dependent on the level of background noise... so that the teacher's voice is 20 db louder than the background noise, making it WAY less effort to focus and hear. But this only helps if you have an Auditory Processing Disorders (APD), sometimes also used for hearing disabilities.

    It's good that her sensory issues are improving, but they may still be a root cause of behaviors.
  5. JJJ

    JJJ Active Member

    Since the doctor mentioned mood issues as well as impulse control, I would suggest looking at mood stabilizers (Depakote, Lamictal, Tegretol, etc) as well as high dose Seroquel (300mg+). Additionally, I'd look up Clonodine, it is a blood pressure medication that is also rx for hyperactivity/impulse control in kids who can't take stims.

    As far as 'not caring', the difference between personality disorder and Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), is that someone with PD KNOWS that it hurts the other person and does not care because they want what they want (or even worse, they enjoy the pain they cause) and someone with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) is often clueless that their actions are causing others pain, even if it is explained to them (lack of theory of mind).
  6. JJJ

    JJJ Active Member

    Be VERY CAREFUL with all natural treatments, some like St. John's Wort can make everything worse!

    The best thing that can be done with NO side effects, is to feed her a balanced, nearly vegetarian, organic diet.
  7. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Other safe things to try on the food side of things are...
    - eliminate all food dyes
    - dairy-free
    - glutin free

    In a child who is affected by these, elimination of them can produce positive behavior impacts. I think it takes at least two weeks to see much impact.
  8. BeachPeace

    BeachPeace Guest

    This is the best explanation I have heard of the Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) apathy vs. other disorders
  9. BeachPeace

    BeachPeace Guest

    OK - you asked about medications and I will give you my experience since I actually have a quiet evening to type a coherent thought.

    Clonidine - I would look into this - We had fantastic experience with this for decreasing aggression and lack of impluse control - great medication. Some kiddos metabolize it very very rapidly and do better with the longer acting version, which is called Kapvay. I did a lot of research before using this for my son and found it has a high safety margin, and is used a lot for PTSD as it works to basically block hyperexcitability. Clonidine is available as a generic and cheap - Kapvay is not.

    Risperdal - this does work, but just OK, for my son, who is 9 - it is very short acting. We only use this for as needed for emergency meltdowns. For my child it is very sedating and the tiredness so easily trips into agitation and the cycle returns. It is cheap. I also noticed it seems to really increase appetite and food issues if

    Abilify - Seems to be a really well tolerated antipsychotic in children. Approved for Autism - has less side effects than older drugs. THIS medication CHANGED MY KID's LIFE!!! OK - it is really expensive and hard to get covered on some plans, but I would sell my body to get this for Blue. He is more focused and calmer but not sedated.

    Zoloft - did not work for us. Increased agitation and restlessness.

    Depakote - mood stabilizer - could not live without this one either. Without this Blue is up an down - all over the place emotionally and his behavior is out of control. Cons - have to have labs drawn to get levels which can be a PITA.

    Good Luck!
  10. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not

    I don't have any treatment to recommend...

    BUT -

    there is no medication for lying. I would not expect to see an improvement in that area based solely on a medication.
  11. JJJ

    JJJ Active Member

    Oh, to dream of a magic truth serum......the inventor would make millions.
  12. Allan-Matlem

    Allan-Matlem Active Member

    medications are like ' scaffolding ' which allows building to take place , makes a kid more responsive to our teaching. Now medications are great , if you get the right medication, right dosage etc for things like inattention, hyperactivity , impulsivenss , mood= irritability etc but they don't teach kids how to think, plan ahead , problem solve etc or deal with frustration. medications don't teach the lagging skills that underly maladaptive behavior.

    I would go through the ALSUP list , list her unsolved problems in detail and then see where medications can help

    Lying is a behavior , a symptom of lagging skills , trust etc and unsolved problems. When we solve the problems , there is no need to lie . When we engage in the collaborative problem solving process kids learn lagging skills.

    medications may be very helpful but even so , no parents want medications to be the long term solution.

    If you are looking at alternative treatments , it does not have to be natural medications but can include ' mindfulness , medidation, learning calming techniques . Older sisters, buddy-tutors ,mentors are great , maybe a personal coach instead of a therapist

  13. Bunny

    Bunny Guest

    My son is on risperdal and we have seen great changes in him. He's much calmer and does not spin into these screaming, tantrum throwing meltdowns, but if he does have a fit about something it is much shorter lived and he is much quicker to calm down.

    The thing with medications is that some kids can take certain types of medications and some can't. I kept insisting that I was putting difficult child on medications and husband fought with me tooth and nail about it, but I told him that he had no choice. He was spinning way out of control and was going to become a danger to himself and everyone else in the house. I have read up about medications on the internet, too, and reading about all of the side effects can make you crazy. It's really a matter of finding what works for your child. risperdal has been a life changer for us. Some people here had kids who had terrible reactions to it. Celexa and Zoloft were nightmares here, but they worked beautifully for others. It just depends on your child.

    As far as giving her something natural, my sister in law has been trying to so that for years with my nephew (I think that he's on the spectrum, but since she homeschools him she refuses to have him evaluated because she feels that having him "labeled" isn't going to do anything anyway.) and her results have been very inconsistent. After seeing the results that people have had after finding the right medication, that is the way I would go.

    Good luck!
  14. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not

    Lying also goes hand-in-hand with many of the personality disorders. A person with a PD will lie whether there is a "need" for it or not....
  15. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I've personally been on a ton of medications for my mood disorder. Most take the edge off but it was the therapy and my wanting to change that did most of he work. I also have had horrible toxic reactions to many medications, a few that ended me in the hospital, one in which my throat was closing up (an antidepressant). What works for one person may be horrible for another. Everyone's body chemistry is different. My own experience trying natural and herbal remedies is that they didn't do any good at all. That includes a gluten free diet. That doesn't necessarily mean it won't work for another person, but I'm cynical about the ability of natural remedies to help serious mental health issues. And, yes, you can get side effects from them too. Niacin got me so sick I ended up in ER too, just like with the medications. There is no cure or medication for lying. That requires both therapy and the desire of the patient, young or old, to WANT to change. It's a lot like substance abuse...if you don't want to quit using drugs nothing will help. It's sort of the same with mental illness. If you don't want to change your behavior, sometimes behavior that is deeply ingrained within you, you won't change. With children, you need a therapist who can engage a child into wanting to change, who can make changing a good thing, even fun.

    My son who is on the autism spectrum also played the medications game. He had toxic reactions to Risperdal and Zyprexa (involuntary movements that can become permanant). Stimulants made him mean and aggressive. Prozac made him nuts. He spent a whole day at school jumping off his desk, saying "I can fly!!!" We took him off of it and he's never done that again. He is 19 now and medication free. Interventions helped him the most. Is your child getting Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) interventions in school? In the community? Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) can look like a personality disorder, but it's not. I'd be very leery of any professional who suggested a personality disorder in an Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) child or ANY child who is only nine years old. And I probably wouldn't buy it.

    On the other hand, after a long, long attempt to try to find a good medication fit for me (I was suicidal so not taking medications wasn't an option) I finally found a combo that works almost 100% for me and has made my life good. It took about ten years with tons of therapy and self-help (I desperately wanted to get better). medications can be extremely useful if they are the right ones and if nobody expects them to be magic and erase all bad behavior because that won't happen. In children, there is a lot of medication switching because every medication is just the doctor's best guess. Adults too, unfortunately.

    before giving it to your child. That's w hat I learned to do. See if you are comfortable with it and learn the side effects so that you can see if your child is having them. Make sure your doctor is more conservative with medication at a that you can tell if the medication agrees with your child. If you start a child on two medications or change two medications and the child gets worse, it is impossible to know which medication is causing the changed behavior.

    This is all JMO, but I've had a lot of experience with medication and frankly I think psychiatrists are way too fast to throw various medications at our children. We need to empower ourselves by learning about what is going into our children's bodies. Again JMO. I am not a doctor

    Good luck, whatever you decide to do.
  16. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    JJJ, that is a very good definition.
    Unfortunately, depending upon the situation, my son can be both.
    At least as annoying, if not more so, is his need to argue. Every. Little. Point. "I am NOT arguing!" "I did NOT lie! You said blah blah and that's why I did blah blah."
  17. Bunny

    Bunny Guest

    That's an excellent point, MWW, and one that I thought about when I read your post. While the risperdal helped our son immensely, I think that what is happening now is that he is getting to the heart of his issues. For the longest time he went on and on about no one loved him. Now that he's calmer and can see things a little more clearly (maturity, maybe?) I think that his behavior is getting better as he has gradually come to realize that he is loved and great deal and that it's the poor behavior that no one loved. medications can only help to a point. The person taking them has to want to be part of the process.
  18. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Yep. medications can make one feel a little better, but the real work is how hard one tries to change his/her behavior. It's not easy.

    That's often why so many times people are disappointed that medications didn't cause a great transformation.
  19. allhaileris

    allhaileris Crumbling Family Rock

    I'm going through these posts one at a time, but this one caught me. This is SOOOOO my daughter. She's lied since she could talk. Part of it is her memory, it's very poor and I know she fills in spots she can't remember with whatever seems to fit. But no matter how much we talk to her, punish or reward, show her she can tell the truth and won't get in trouble, praise her for telling the truth...the lies come out like verbal diarrhea.

    And that's exactly what you're saying that a person with PD would do? That's what I'm guessing. She just can't help it.

    I get the lying because she doesn't want to be in trouble, or she can't remember, but it's the stupid lies that don't matter and they just come out that really bother me. She also thinks everybody lies TO her, which we don't. I'm a horrible liar, and am pretty up front with her, I try not to trick her because she needs literal explanations.

    Okay, I gotta get back to work, I'll read the rest of this later and look up the medications. Thank you for input, and any more is totally fine to add on.
  20. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not

    The "just can't help it part" is not really true....and it is part of what CAN be fixed if the person with a PD really wants to change their ways...