Meeting part 2

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by newstart, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Today my troubled 35 year old adult daughter and I had another meeting. She came with me to a Dentist appointment and then to a clothing store. On the way home I told her to come in and we need to talk.
    I did not hold back anything that I needed to say. As I looked at her I saw that she looked pale and sad.
    My voice started to raise and I was shooting off stuff that was buried in my mind that needed to come out. I took a deep breathe and slowed my breathing down and with it my tone.
    Big stuff to discuss and then the little stuff like not picking up the trash that is blown around the front of her home. A few weeks ago when we had my husbands birthday party at her house, we walked out and saw little plastic things all over her front yard, left over from when the Christmas lights were being taken down by her 1/2 ass boyfriend. Since he does everything 1/2 ass, the lights were half off, it took him another few weeks to get the rest off and then left the plastic hangers all over the front yard. This is a nice neighborhood with strong deed restrictions. I have been on the board with our HOA and hate to think I own that house and how I feel about trash being thrown. I know someone will write, well don't sweat the small stuff.. This stuff leads to bigger trash and has to be stopped right away. A couple of years ago 1/2 ass boyfriends started dragging his big item junk over to my daughters house like an old beat up truck that was not working and other huge junk. We got a deed restriction letter for it. Stressful.... So I had to nip that in the bud.
    Daughter started crying her eyes out telling me what a mess she had created. She sobbed non stop, I think mostly because her and her boyfriend are 'off' for the moment. I gave her a running list of all the money she owes me and told her how shi** it was to get our names so close to having our credit ruined. Of course she tells me that she did not want to be in this mess and is looking on how to get out of it. I gave her some good suggestions and one as to get full time employment and do the spa thing as a part time gig and get it sold. It is not doing as she expected. I remember she told me that she plans to clear $80,000 in one day. Well the weather was awful and she did not clear one cent. Crazy reckless behavior that is so expensive.

    Before she left we worked out a payment plan. I told her that her off/on with her 1/2 ass boyfriend is keeping her in a terrible downward spiral, she said she knew and understood, why am I wasting my breath? this has been that toxic for 8 years now.

    We hugged for a long time and she told me that she loved me. As she drove off I prayed that she would move forward. I told her how offensive her boyfriend is and how he hurt her dad at his birthday. She said I know dad does not like me, and I told her he does not like the things that she does but loves her deeply.
    My husband is a straight shooter, he is one of the most honest people I have ever met and he just does not get the deceitful ugly behavior and he is the stronger one to just want to blow her off.
    I admit to all of you that my heart is weak. My daughter cries with her sob stories and I see her beautiful large eyes and I weaken and want to take her somewhere and rock her like a baby but she is a grown adult woman that needs to be accountable for her choices and lifestyle. I asked her if she wanted to go to counseling again, I will be paying... I thought I was DONE with all that but it was in her tone of voice that said 'Yes, I need to go'.. And I will be trying again to get her help when in reality I do not have the strength to just walk off with out trying just one more time.
    I told her I was afraid that I was enabling her, her dad wants her to feel the blunt of her mistakes and I know he is right but For Gods Sake I need to do that too, I just can't seem to yet or today. I don't want to call myself an idiot again, I just need prayer to not swoop in and help her.

    I told her I expect to get paid back. I did not bail her out, I loaned her out. I usually have more strength than this but it is getting close to my son's death date and I am a heap of sorrow. His death and birth are real close to each other and I do ok most years around this time but this year is harder. It just comes and goes in waves like that and I know it will be like that for the rest of my life. I miss him so much and I miss his ability to clear the air right away, he was honest and he loved to joke. He was responsible and I always felt secure that he would have my best interest in mind as I grew to be an old lady. I felt so lucky and blessed to have him. I feel lucky and blessed to have my daughter I just want her to get on a course that makes her deeply happy. I do not feel she can be trusted with my estate as I get older, in fact we have talked about not leaving her anything.

    Sorry if this sounds all over the place, I am fighting depression and I want peace and harmony in my life over everything. I don't care about anything other than living souls.
  2. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    I am sorry you are sad. Daughter will do what she wants to do. I don't know if she will truly try in therapy, but I think it may help YOU even more than her to be in therapy. This stuff isn't easy. I don't recall if you were in therapy or not.

    Try to have a peaceful day and to think of the ways you can be happy even if daughter can never meet your needs. Or let's you down. I am again so sorry about your son. Again, I believe in therapy. You deserve to go and to learn to cope and be happy. You are a good person.
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  3. Triedntrue

    Triedntrue Well-Known Member

    I am so sorry for the loss of your son i can understand that this anniversary has to be very difficult for you. In a previous post you were afraid that your daughter would take advantage of your sadness to get things from you. I am not sure if you are freely giving to her or your prediction came true. Either way you have to do what is right for you. I am glad you were able to have a talk with her and she appears to have some remorse. I hope that helps her to try to become more responsible. I agree with somewhere out there that you should concentrate on your peace of mind more than hers right now. From what you say about your son and your husband i am betting thats what they would want for you.
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  4. Littleboylost

    Littleboylost On the road unwanted to travel

    New Start
    I am short of down time and just want you to know I am following along and sending tou warm hugs and energy.

    Have you been able to listen to any of Pima Chodrons work or read her books. I found them so very helpful.

    Stay strong and celebrate the joy of your sons memories and the love you share. My heart is with you
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  5. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Thank you SWOT. I have been in and out of therapy for many years. I first went in the 90s on how to deal with my husbands family. I think everyone should go to a good therapist. I was a grief counselor for a while and my daughter helped with the siblings. I need to go again just because it is healthy but I do not want to go to someone that just knows it from the book. I need a counselor that has actually lived with a troubled person. I can tell almost immediately if they don't know what they are talking about and have no experience to back it up. We have been though so many bad ones. Hard to find a good one.
  6. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Thank you Littleboylost, Feeling you warm hugs and energy. I listened to Pima for a short time but hope to have more time soon to really listen. I sometimes listen to Thomas Sheridan talk about psychopaths. He is from Ireland and speaks great truths. I think he is very interesting. He is on Youtube. He is a bit rough for you that don't like cursing but he gets his point across and gives much food for thought.
  7. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Thank you Tired mama. Thank you for reminding me that my son and husband want me to have peace. You are so right. I thought I saw genuine remorse but it could just be sadness from being off from the boyfriend. I sometimes don't know what is right for me. If I am guided by my heart she just walks all over me and then I have to do things against my nature that actually hurt me but are better for her. No wonder some parents move and leave no forwarding address or phone number. Only the future will tell where my daughter goes from here. But if she stays with her boyfriend she will stay in her hell hole for a long time.
  8. Tomorrowtoday

    Tomorrowtoday New Member

    Sometimes when a woman loses a baby, if she gets pregnant again she refuses to recognize the new baby as her own. Sometimes as moms we blame ourselves for everything that goes wrong and if or when it goes very wrong, we don't trust ourselves. Someone (a family member, an agency, God) takes a child away from us and we push the other one away because it hurts less.

    Sometimes I wonder if my own avoidance of other people and the pain loving them causes that made my son the way he is. Maybe I was too disconnected emotionally. Maybe he never understood how much I love him. How much I seem to be annoyed by him and critical and a b--- because I really truly love him.

    Family is family. Period. We don't get to walk away.
  9. Sam3

    Sam3 Active Member

    I found a therapist affiliated with my son's treatment center who did private therapy as well. She had many years of experience with troubled teens and young adults, but also with family therapy for that population. She had seen it all. She was not my sons therapist or our family therapist, so there was not a direct conflict of interest. If there is an addiction/dual diagnosis center in your area, maybe it's worth inquiring if any of their therapists do privates.
  10. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    Many families walk away, sometimes to save themselves. While most of us haven't done that, many detach with love.

    There unfortunately are no absolutes when dealing with adults, family or not, who hurt us, lie to us, steal from us, and are dangerous. Nobody wants to distance ourselves from loved ones but many of us have had to. Nobody is allowed to abuse us, even grown children. We don't have to put up with that, DNA or not. My DNA was mostly very unkind to me and my family is my family of choice, my husband and kids only, those who love me and treat me well. Three of my kiddos are adopted and I don't think DNA is important. My opinion is that love and kindness matter, not anything else.

    I also do not believe we are responsible for the bad choices of our adult children. Sure, we can think about it, but by 18 they choose their paths. We didn't cause it, we can't and we can't cure it. Very sadly and unfortunately some people have a harder time doing the steps needed to find happiness. To me, it seems like certain people are almost born to fight society and sabatage their own lives and many had extremely loving, caring parents. As time goes on, it becomes largely up to them to want to change. Jmo
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  11. Tanya M

    Tanya M Living with an attitude of gratitude Staff Member

    I think you are doing really well. You are working on boundaries with your daughter and you are also trying to offer her some help. You are doing what you feel you need to do.
    I hope your daughter will really embrace what you talked about, that she will see the area's of her life that need to be addressed. I really hope she will take you up on your offer to go to therapy.
    Some might say you have done enough already but I'm a firm believer that we have to do what we can live with. I know with my son if I would have found this site sooner than I did, I might have stopped helping/enabling him sooner but I at least do not second guess myself wondering if I had only done this or that would things have been different.
    Again, I really hope your daughter will embrace the opportunity you are affording her.
    Stay strong!!
    ((HUGS)) to you...................
  12. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Just wanted to add that I went to my dent
    Sometimes family is so overwhelmingly toxic and bad for your journey you have no choice but to walk away for your own safety, health, self respect and life. A toxic person is a toxic person even if they are family. I use to think I had to tolerate it, thank God I know better.
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  13. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Tanya, Today I am not feeling like I did the right thing. I wish I could be tough. I too, many times wish I would/could stop enabling my daughter. I am so confused on what I can or cannot live with and I know I need to grow another set of sheballs. My husband will do the talking with her next because I am such a push over. He is very fair but very firm. Today my out of the country friend that is staying with her came over to talk with me. He said that my daughter is in the most toxic relationship he has ever seen. He said it is so sickly off and on and both of them spend their time trying to harm the other one. Maybe she likes to be in that situation. Maybe being like that is her comfort zone, maybe that is just how she is built. Maybe I really can't do anything about it and if she wants that awful living to be her comfort zone then so be it. The pure misery this child brings cannot be discribed in words. It is all over my face. I am praying for you for when your son gets released. I pray that he can finally get a grip and keep that grip. Blessings and love to you.
  14. Tanya M

    Tanya M Living with an attitude of gratitude Staff Member

    The term "sheballs" actually made me laugh.

    Oh dear Newstart, detaching is not an easy thing to do. If it was, there would be no need for a site like this.
    Your feelings are quite normal considering what you are dealing with.
    I think you simply coming out of the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt). You see, when you are in the thick FOG there is no questioning of whether we are enabling or not, it's when we start coming out of the FOG and seeing, really seeing the difference between helping and enabling that we start to question what we are doing. We begin to really see that helping isn't helping.
    I've been at this a really long time and even though I have successfully detached from my son, he's still my son and I love him so I still have to keep things in check.
    I had to stop seeing my son as my little boy. I started really seeing him for who he is really is, a grown man that is completely irresponsible and has no regard for anyone but himself. Holding onto that truth really helped me to successfully detach.
    You really are doing great, don't sell yourself short.
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  15. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Thank you Tanya for your continued support. I am really working on getting the image of a sweet little girl out of my mind and replacing it with a harsh hurtful woman that can snap on a dime. When your wrote' I have successfully detached' how did you know it was successful? I am thinking once we clean up the finance mess my daughter made, I can start to work on the emotional stuff. My daughter does things that makes it hard for me to detach. Last night she cooked a good meal and brought some over for her dad, for his work lunch. She wrapped it so beautifully. Then she hugged me and told me how much she loves both me and her dad, then she stayed and chatted for a little while. My husband relaxes and thinks the drama has died down. I know better, this is just a calm period. I have seen longer calm periods and I have seen very short calm periods but I have not seen consistent calm periods. There is always some major drama hanging over. Thank you for letting me know you think I am doing great, I feel I move at a snails pace to get things working in he right order. Big hug to you.
  16. recoveringenabler

    recoveringenabler Well-Known Member Staff Member

    That is what is necessary to remember. You've just given your daughter a new set of rules....this can be a challenging time because once we begin to set those boundaries, our kids very often begin their own strategy to get us back onto the gravy train....stay neutral, stay the course, accept your daughter's love but reject the manipulations and the requests for help in any form. What is most important is that you keep your word, keep your boundaries and stick to the rules you set forth.

    You ARE doing a great may not feel like it for awhile because it is so hard and so emotional....but you've made enormous progress......hang in there, it does get easier.......
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  17. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Thank you recoveringenabler. I am aware that things could turn ugly or she will try to sucker me into another mess but I am not letting my guard down. I will not believe that she can change into a someone I can trust so fast. Each year I think that she is growing older and wiser but I have to remove my blinders. She is who is and who she became, someone I really do not like. She does not give a sh## about me and I know it deep down and it hurts deeply. Sometimes I feel as if she cares but in reality all she cares about is being in a dysfuntional relationship with 1/2 ass boyfriend. It is to bad that 1/2 ass boyfriends mother and I have no relationship, I tried talking with her when I met her one time but she was not interested. She has enabled her 42 year old 1/2 ass son to the point of no return. 1/2 ass boyfriends mother was talking about her 2 sons and one daughter and when I told her I had a son that passed she just said 'I heard'. Ok that does not sound mean but it was all in tone, like, don't bother me with personal problems. Everything we say is in tone. My daughter thinks I am psychic because I know when she lies but in reality her tone changes when the lies come out. The body and voice cannot lie. Thank you for your support, you are much appreciated.
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  18. New Leaf

    New Leaf Well-Known Member

    Ahhhhhh, the “honeymoon stage”. When someone knows they have gone too far and have to behave to reel you back over.
    I liken it to domestic violence charts. When you think of it, an adult child knows us better than anyone, knows how to beguile and manipulate, tug at our heart strings to get what they want from us. Your daughter knows you are on to her and will ramp up good behaviors to get you emotionally enmeshed and financing her.
    If you look back, you will probably see the pattern.
    In dv charts, it’s called the honeymoon stage. Apologies and promises that “it will never happen again” a shift in attitude, until the partner has given in to the ploy and is forgiving and vulnerable.
    My daughter would come home with her three kids and vow to leave her boyfriend, I even helped her get restraining orders, switched the kids schools. She would behave responsibly for a time, and I would hope with all my heart that “this time would be different” then she would soon go back to her ways. Stay out all night, sometimes be gone for days, money, jewelry, things go missing, the food stamps to feed the kids......gone. It was completely crazy making, mixed up with my love for her and desire that she would straighten her life out, and of course my love and concern for my grands.........
    Then I saw the pattern, we were just an opportunity for her to get away, built in babysitters, the list goes on. She had no intention of changing her ways, knew how to dangle the grands and her situation in front of us to get us to give in. She knew if she came home and cooked and cleaned for a few days that would ease the tension. Then.....boom, same ole, same ole.
    It is hard to see our adult children struggle. We do them no favor by allowing them to use us. It is a completely appalling and hurtful thing to endure on our end.
    We just want to be able to love them and help them. But, when they feel entitled and take for granted what is done, take advantage of our deep love for them, walk all over our generosity, something has got to change. It is such an unhealthy roller coaster ride to be on.
    My quote thingy is not is the same for me as Tanya wrote, I had to stop seeing my two adult daughters as little girls. I used to think “This is not the real them”. Actually, it is not how I raised them.
    This is the real them, now.
    I do have hopes they will see their true potential, but I understand that if I continued to “help” them, they certainly have no reason to change, and on top of that, my life is miserable.
    On growing “she balls”, lol, NS. It reminds me of something I read “There’s the expression “grow some balls”........those things are tender and sensitive, it should be “grow a vagina” it can take a beating and still keep going.
    You are strong and doing well. Just keep your eyes wide open and guard your heart to what may be coming down the pipeline.
    When my dear hubs passed, my daughter thought it was an opportunity for her to move in again. I told her no. “It doesn’t work, you being here, you don’t get better, you need to be at rehab, or a dv shelter.” It was hard to say that. But, it was true. I am not the one to fix her problems, she just walks all over me and the sanctity of my home.
    You asked how you know if you have detached. For me, detachment means that I don’t sink so emotionally low at every point. Being steady state, helps to make more clear headed decisions. Detachment feels like removing yourself from the stage, to the audience. Okay, that sounds weird, but really, instead of being right smack dab in the middle of all the drama, I have moved away from it. Oh sure, I have my days when the craziness of it all gets to me. Then I pray harder.
    What I focus most on is that I will not be around forever to rescue my two.
    They have to learn to choose differently.

    We should be respected as parents. Not looked upon as cash cows and ways to escape consequences of bad decisions.
    Loving kindness is a two way street. Not a momentary gesture to keep the gravy train rolling.
    I am sorry for all you have had to endure.
    Comes a time when we have to see things for what they are and stand up for ourselves.
    This, you are doing.
    Keep up the good work, NS. You got this.
    Ps, watch out for “triangulation”. When I got tougher, my two started working on my hubs. It made the road a lot bumpier. It’s good if you both are on the same page. My two were able to drive a wedge in my marriage, that was a rough ride.
    Hang in there sister.
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  19. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Dear New Leaf, You have touched my heart and soul again with your wise guidance and words. I feel the truth in what you have to say and I know that wisdom only comes from great pain. I am so sorry for your pain and loss of husband.
    I think about what I would do if my husband were to pass suddenly. I am positive my daughter would drain the life out of me. I admire your strength and wisdom.
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  20. Tanya M

    Tanya M Living with an attitude of gratitude Staff Member

    I guess the easiest way to describe it is this, I no longer have feelings of guilt nor do I have feelings of the need to swoop in and save him.
    Once I truly accepted that he is a grown man making his own choices, good or bad and that he's living life on his terms, was I able to really let go.
    It's in the acceptance. Please note, accepting that he's going to live his life in his own way does not mean that I like it. I still hate that he makes poor choices and is homeless (other than being in jail for now) but I had to accept it to let it go. I'm not getting any younger and I have allowed my son to dominate years of my life with his chaos, no more. I deserve to live my life and be happy, we all deserve that.
    Detaching with love is just that, we let go of them but we still love them and loving them does not equate to rescuing them.
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