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<blockquote data-quote="dreamer" data-source="post: 23852" data-attributes="member: 1697"><p>I am not sure cuz it has been many many years since I was in a 12 step program, BUT.I think "higher power" is not necessarily a "God"- but rather can be just about anything...including your own conscience. Or it can be the unity of the group around you. </p><p>ANd I think the powerlesssness thing is not that you are a powerless person, but rather that you have been weak in handling whatever the problem is that brought you into a 12 step program, and you admit to being powerless, so to speak, so that you can accept that you need help, guidance, support- to fight your demon. You give up the mindset that you are all so great and wonderful, as if you have some problem that causes you to join a 12 step program, it is a stepping stone to admitting you do not always use the best judgement. </p><p>Most people who join 12 step programs do so of their own accord, and if they are joining a support system, they most likely are going to buy into it, they are more likely to be admitting they have a problem and they are more willing to be amenable to being helped. </p><p>Do they work for everyone? No, all of us here know there is no one size fits all for anything. Heck, my first husband was diabetic and the insulin he required to live killed him cuz he developed an allergy to it. (that was back in the late 70s, early 80s) </p><p>SOme kids do great with Magic 1,2,3. SOme it makes worse. Weight watchers works wonderfully for some, for others it is useless. </p><p></p><p>Is addiction an illness or disorder? Science has found differences in bodies of some people with various addictions. Gosh not that long ago, lots of things we now call illnesses were not considered illnesses or disorders. Schizophrenics and bipolars were considered possessed by demons. </p><p></p><p>As for addictions, there are different kinds of addiction, as well. AN addiction where your body craves the substance can very likely be considered an injury or illness or disorder just the same way a cold, or flu is an illness, becuz the offensive substance can alter the body, and it can be considered an injury becuz it can traumatize the body. And if your body has adjusted and adapted to a need for a substance, your body will demand the substance in order to work. Until you are detoxed physically, you can be quite ill without the substance. (and for some substances you can die without the offending substance) </p><p></p><p>As for the psychological addiction, well, I suppose that is a psycholigical issue.......thinking you need the offensive substance, craving it even after the physical addiction is broken. Scientists have discovered dfferences in peoples bodies that make that craving harder to deal with in some people. </p><p>Similar, I believe, to food issues? The amount of food and fluid we really neeed to survive is QUITE different than what we normally intake. </p><p>Do you shower daily? How do you feel if you do not shower? How about if you were to go a week without a shower? I do not know about you but I think after 3 days I would be nuts. (no, truth is I am nuts after 12 hours, I am a bathing addict) BUT we do not NEED to shower. AN addict does not NEED their addicting substance. and we do not NEED to bathe or shower at all, ever. We FEEL like we might die if we don't, but we will not REALLY die. </p><p></p><p>SOmething else to consider is.........what IS the problem the "addict" is having related to ....the drinking? Is it the money they spend for their alcohol? Is it depriving family of things the family REQUIRES? Food for the children? Money to pay the rent? </p><p>Is it absenteeism at work and hangovers? Job and financial insecurity?</p><p>Is it a problem due to their own health? An chronic underlying illness where the intake of alcohol is a serious health problem, like to their liver? </p><p>Is ir becuz they do get drunk, are drunk and do awful things when drunk? Things they do not do when not ddrunk? (LOL, remember some people do awful things even when not drunk, in some it is not the drinking that makes them do those awful things) </p><p>Are they simply careless and out of control, and fall etc when drunk, or do they get mean and violent when drunk? abusive? </p><p> </p><p>Which of the associated problems are a problem in the drinking persons mind and which are problems in the drinking persons loved ones minds? </p><p>If there is no financial problem related to the drinking and the person can afford the drinking, and they have no health problem, and they do not get too careless or abusive is it a problem? To who? and why? </p><p>SOme people can drink one beer and become violent. SOme families cannot afford even one beer. </p><p>Some people can drink a case of beer, can afford it and do not seem any different. Are they both alcoholics? Problem drinkers? Social drinkers? </p><p></p><p>Very rarely will there be any success with handling an addiction unless the addicted person WANTS help. IF they want help, and are ready to stop- then I suppose there are many different programs that MIGHT help. </p><p>12 steps, IIRC just happen to be the most widespread, most readily available, most well known, most accessible.......Is there scientific evidence they help? I have no idea. But for me personally it is the only help I have seen where so many have utilized it, and I have seen countless success stories. I know there are people in our area who can choose from 2-3 AA 12 step meetings ANY time of day or nite 7 days a week. And I know some people who spend a HUGE amount of time attending AA meetings, so much time, I have wondered gosh, is this any better than drinking? </p><p></p><p>Am I gonna knock people trying to do something to help themself? Nope. I'm not.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="dreamer, post: 23852, member: 1697"] I am not sure cuz it has been many many years since I was in a 12 step program, BUT.I think "higher power" is not necessarily a "God"- but rather can be just about anything...including your own conscience. Or it can be the unity of the group around you. ANd I think the powerlesssness thing is not that you are a powerless person, but rather that you have been weak in handling whatever the problem is that brought you into a 12 step program, and you admit to being powerless, so to speak, so that you can accept that you need help, guidance, support- to fight your demon. You give up the mindset that you are all so great and wonderful, as if you have some problem that causes you to join a 12 step program, it is a stepping stone to admitting you do not always use the best judgement. Most people who join 12 step programs do so of their own accord, and if they are joining a support system, they most likely are going to buy into it, they are more likely to be admitting they have a problem and they are more willing to be amenable to being helped. Do they work for everyone? No, all of us here know there is no one size fits all for anything. Heck, my first husband was diabetic and the insulin he required to live killed him cuz he developed an allergy to it. (that was back in the late 70s, early 80s) SOme kids do great with Magic 1,2,3. SOme it makes worse. Weight watchers works wonderfully for some, for others it is useless. Is addiction an illness or disorder? Science has found differences in bodies of some people with various addictions. Gosh not that long ago, lots of things we now call illnesses were not considered illnesses or disorders. Schizophrenics and bipolars were considered possessed by demons. As for addictions, there are different kinds of addiction, as well. AN addiction where your body craves the substance can very likely be considered an injury or illness or disorder just the same way a cold, or flu is an illness, becuz the offensive substance can alter the body, and it can be considered an injury becuz it can traumatize the body. And if your body has adjusted and adapted to a need for a substance, your body will demand the substance in order to work. Until you are detoxed physically, you can be quite ill without the substance. (and for some substances you can die without the offending substance) As for the psychological addiction, well, I suppose that is a psycholigical issue.......thinking you need the offensive substance, craving it even after the physical addiction is broken. Scientists have discovered dfferences in peoples bodies that make that craving harder to deal with in some people. Similar, I believe, to food issues? The amount of food and fluid we really neeed to survive is QUITE different than what we normally intake. Do you shower daily? How do you feel if you do not shower? How about if you were to go a week without a shower? I do not know about you but I think after 3 days I would be nuts. (no, truth is I am nuts after 12 hours, I am a bathing addict) BUT we do not NEED to shower. AN addict does not NEED their addicting substance. and we do not NEED to bathe or shower at all, ever. We FEEL like we might die if we don't, but we will not REALLY die. SOmething else to consider is.........what IS the problem the "addict" is having related to ....the drinking? Is it the money they spend for their alcohol? Is it depriving family of things the family REQUIRES? Food for the children? Money to pay the rent? Is it absenteeism at work and hangovers? Job and financial insecurity? Is it a problem due to their own health? An chronic underlying illness where the intake of alcohol is a serious health problem, like to their liver? Is ir becuz they do get drunk, are drunk and do awful things when drunk? Things they do not do when not ddrunk? (LOL, remember some people do awful things even when not drunk, in some it is not the drinking that makes them do those awful things) Are they simply careless and out of control, and fall etc when drunk, or do they get mean and violent when drunk? abusive? Which of the associated problems are a problem in the drinking persons mind and which are problems in the drinking persons loved ones minds? If there is no financial problem related to the drinking and the person can afford the drinking, and they have no health problem, and they do not get too careless or abusive is it a problem? To who? and why? SOme people can drink one beer and become violent. SOme families cannot afford even one beer. Some people can drink a case of beer, can afford it and do not seem any different. Are they both alcoholics? Problem drinkers? Social drinkers? Very rarely will there be any success with handling an addiction unless the addicted person WANTS help. IF they want help, and are ready to stop- then I suppose there are many different programs that MIGHT help. 12 steps, IIRC just happen to be the most widespread, most readily available, most well known, most accessible.......Is there scientific evidence they help? I have no idea. But for me personally it is the only help I have seen where so many have utilized it, and I have seen countless success stories. I know there are people in our area who can choose from 2-3 AA 12 step meetings ANY time of day or nite 7 days a week. And I know some people who spend a HUGE amount of time attending AA meetings, so much time, I have wondered gosh, is this any better than drinking? Am I gonna knock people trying to do something to help themself? Nope. I'm not. [/QUOTE]
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