Morning from hell and Conduct Disorder remains the verdict...

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by InsaneCdn, Oct 5, 2011.

  1. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Our kids need our affection the most, at exactly those points in life when they are most unlovable.
    I can relate to how you feel... as a parent, I've had to learn to suppress that feeling, and love difficult child anyway.
    But it is really hard to learn.

    I'm going to challenge you on this one. Just something to think about...
    If he was diagnosed with lymphomic cancer, for example, AND had a broken leg, would you say that there's no point in addressing the broken leg? Of course not.

    Even if in the overall scheme of things, there is some CD component, it is still worth pursuing every other possible diagnosis until you get them all. Because... these other things are much more treatable, and you may find that in addressing these, you lessen the impact of the CD. The un-diagnosed problems alone can cause severe ODD bordering on CD... whether you solve all the problems or not remains to be seen, but you might as well solve what you can.

    NOW we're talking. Yes. If you can get help for the whole empathy thing, it WILL make a difference.
    Getting help for other (smaller, if you want to call them that) issues, can also help with relationship-building.

    Hang in there.
  2. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    I've had mornings like that. I hear you!
    I still beg to differ with-your psychiatrist. I see some autism in there. Especially when he is so clueless in regard to sitting naked, then wanting a goodbye kiss after exploding.

    Good for you for questioning the diagnosis. Just become one dr says he's the worst case she's seen means that for ONE dr, he's the worst case she's seen. She must have done her internship at Disneyland.
    He is lucky to have you as a mom. :) {{hugs}}
  3. buddy

    buddy New Member

    Oh wow, I just posted an awful morning a couple of days ago too....and every morning. I get wanting to hit them, for mine anyone who hits him back or even in self defense pushes him away...he will act like "OH, NOW ITS ON!!!) ...he has no cause and effect and goes into fight or flight. It is all about his perspective. He also just thinks if anyone hits that it means it is ok for him to hit. But I understand the feeling for sure...I hear you! I am sorry you are doing this with other kids around, that would be so much harder in many ways I would think.

    in my bonding work with my son the main thing every on-line or local place that specialized in attachment and bonding (not just for Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD), for any diagnosis like autism, trauma, etc...) they said to make sure that the therapist is a specialist in this. These kids can be very clever in pulling the wool over the eyes of a therapist...hugging them, saying mommy is too mean and I just want her to love me, etc. I was told to run, not walk if a therapist wanted to see my child alone when discussing our relationship or working on bonding....I only did research based treatments with trained therapists who really understood this. They can do more damage than help if they dont really get it. I realize this is only one aspect of what you have told us about but just wanted to share because when people helped me through this it saved us a lot of grief...and I DiD have to leave two therapists after I realized they each SAID they worked on bonding but they didn't follow the guidelines I had learned about. Your call of course, just sharing. (and certainly there are times I needed to talk alone and work through things...that is different)

    Great job plowing on and feel free to vent and vent and vent. I for one know those moments of really feeling like the last thing I want to do now is to hug you (especially when they are snickering over seeing us upset)

    ps now that my difficult child is getting older he tells me more about how he is really feeling (guess all that therapy is paying off) and one time this summer, when I got upset he was smirking at something that would otherwise make someone really sad...he said, mom I dont feel happy about it, it just makes me nervous and my face does that. He said, Can you show me what my face looks like. So we went to a mirror. now, he will then at times say, good! I AM going to do that face because I dont care! It just depends on his state at the time. I am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt more. (common with brain injury to show inappropriate facial expressions and say rude sounding things)
  4. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I don't like specialists because they tend to see their specialty in every child (at least this has been my experience).

    I know kids can be psychopaths. I adopted one. Believe it or not, he was worse than your son...he killed animals and sexually abused (think of the worst way possible) my younger two kids and scared then with a knife and fires so that they were afraid to tell us. He probably had other things going on too, but the bottom line is he could not live safely in a family and, once we found out what he'd done, we told CPS to remove him...and they did gladly.

    Your child did not have the bad experiences that mine did nor was he prenatally exposed to drugs and alcohol. But a psychopath, for any reason, is still dangerous and hard to treat. I heard he never did improve. Nor did he miss us. He could not have feelings for people, which we could have worked on except that every psychiatrist he saw after that told us that he was a threat to any child. Plus my other two k ids were terrified of him...there was no way we were ever going to make them see him again.

    So I know there can be child psychopaths. At the end of the day, if you can manage your son at home, that is good. Try to find out what else is wrong with him and treat everything you can. Don't give up on him yet. But he still may end up in an Residential Treatment Center (RTC)...even though you ARE a good mother. It really doesn't have a lot to do with parenting. Some kids have no empathy because of brutal pasts. But some people seem to be born without empathy. Disturbed, unhappy, miserable kids can be helped. Mean, cruel kids...not so sure. There is a big difference. To get help, on some level you have to WANT it.

    I wish I had some great advice. I"m so sorry. (((Hugs)))
  5. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    Okay, okay.
    It's just that I've so often seen it the other way around, and my heart breaks for the kids who could have been helped.
    Either way, you ARE helping your son, doing therapy, Occupational Therapist (OT), bonding, etc. so it's kind of a moot point. One of the main reasons we "label" is to help with-interventions and medications.
  6. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Terry -
    I'm guessing that there are multiple layers of issues going on here.
    Until they an get a good handle on some part of this and peel back that layer, they won't be able to get down to the "real" layers.
    Might - or might not - be Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) at the bottom of it all.
    But there's a bunch of other stuff that clouds the issue...
    If the psychiatrists want to hang on to the CD diagnosis for now... AND it gets them some appropriate interventions (the therapist stuff is good)... then run with it... but I still think they need to push to get to the bottom of "all the other stuff" too. And now, not later. Which she IS trying to do...

    Its not easy, though. (we had to peel layers - it takes forever, and we don't have forever)
  7. keista

    keista New Member

    :consoling: Yes, it is frustrating, BUT it is also a diagnosis that explains SOOOO many behaviors in "these" kinds of kids, and it is a very HOPEFUL diagnosis. The members of this board are very HOPEFUL ppl.

    However, I completely understand your frustration having been there done that myself. When I was having some very strange issues with DD1 last Spring, Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kept coming up and I had to repetedly assure everyone here that it was NOT Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). Frustrating for me, as well as others trying to find a possible reason for her behavior from what I was writing. I *wished* she had Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), not just then, but ever since birth. Further on, it was suggested by members here that she had ADHD. Again it was another NOT. Reading over my posts objectively, I did indeed see these traits in what I wrote. So yeah, I get your frustration :consoling:, but please don't let it bug you too much. Everyone is trying to help the best they can.
  8. Liahona

    Liahona Guest

    Wonderful. I'm sure you have done this before to try to help him "get" empathy, but I'm glad it got his attention this time.

    I think you are doing a great job.

    What do your other kids do when he gets violent like this?
  9. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Ive met one young boy that I believe is like your son. He really scared me as an adult. My kids were fairly young then and it was long before I knew about this board but I wouldnt let my kids be alone with him at all. Animals ended up injured in seconds if you werent watching him closely. He set a field on fire when he was six. He tried to run over a toddler girl with his bike. I caught him stealing cigarettes and beer when he could get them. Of course, his parents didnt take it really seriously...or maybe they did and tried to just act like everything was normal to outsiders. I mean what do you say to people...hello Im Jane and this is Joe my psycho toddler?
  10. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    A lot of us "jump" to an autism based diagnosis partly because we have seen our own children with these behaviors and seen how far they can improve with the right treatment. There is a LOT of hope for autism diagnosis's and almost none for a conduct disorder diagnosis, at least from what we have seen and heard.

    I am sorry he is so violent and hard to live with and love. I DO understand. I spent YEARS being sure that my very brilliant child was going to spend his life in prison for killing either his little sister or me.

    I find it HIGHLY premature to jump to this diagnosis without doing testing. I do find it very possible that this could be the true problem, or one of them, because I know that some people are just born different that way, just like some are born geniuses or as the sweetest people you could meet. I do think that you will find help for the sensory stuff and other things to be very valuable.

    I ALWAYS advise moms to trust their instincts. We have them for a reason. When people were POSITIVE that Wiz just was too great a kid to ever hurt his sister it didn't stop me from making sure that they were never in a room with-o an adult in it, not even for ten seconds. While he does NOT have conduct disorder, although a few docs tried to diagnosis it, he was incredibly violent in word, thought and action.

    So if your gut is saying this is it, I will trust you. I don't know you or him, but you do. I do see autistic aspects to his behavior as you have reported it to us. But I am NOT a doctor.

    I would insist on all the testing that is possible, because if you can help in ANY aspect then it should help overall.

    I urge you to start calling 911 for transport to a psychiatric hospital when he is violent. It will end up getting treatment a LOT faster and you will need that paper trail of his violence when it comes to moving him into a residential setting. Children with conduct disorder really need resdential, in depth treatment - not just to help them but also to protect the rest of the family. If he has conduct disorder it is highly probable, in my opinion at least, that in time he will be strong enough and sneaky enough to be a real danger to the entire family. If you can't get residential treatment then you may even have to consider turning him over to social services to protect the rest of the family. It is HARD and it HURTS, but not as bad a burying someone or having him kill you and leave your kids with-o you.

    Sorry, that isn't terribly hopeful. I do hope and pray that with help things will change greatly and they will find some reason for the behavior and that will lead to a way to help him and all of you. But you must make safety the top priority and if he hurts your other children you will have to put their needs and their right to be safe above his rights to live in your home.

    I am sorry we frustrate you. We don't mean to. But a lot of people over the years have come here and said it is a conduct disorder diagnosis and then after testing found that it was a whole different ballgame and treatment made a huge difference. We are trying to give you new avenues to explore and hope that things can get better.

    (((((hugs))))) Mornings like that are just awful. I hope tomorrow is better.
  11. whatamess

    whatamess New Member

    Well, even though it is not what you see in your son, I do have a child on the autism spectrum and some of what you write is explained by attributing it to autism. Of course, you don't need diagnoses that aren't applicable, however if enough people are seeing similarities with their spectrum children and your child's behavior/reactions then it might be helpful to get beyond the label and look at WHY these behaviors come out. My child would sit naked because he has great difficulty taking others perspective and has sensory issues. He would look for a hug after an outburst because that unconditional affection can be comforting and he would have trouble understanding why when he's not angry anymore other people still would be angry (perspective taking again). It IS hard having a child that perceives the world so differently than we do. I'm glad you found the forum, lots of experience all around.
  12. Liahona

    Liahona Guest

    What does Canada do when kids are so dangerous they can not be with others? What will the school do when he hurts enough kids? This is going beyond your family circle and he is just 6.
  13. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    The look in his eyes... of course I haven't seen it.
    But I do know that my difficult child went downright scary - and it was his eyes that really bothered me. A look that the school pics almost capture - not the intensity, but... that "something" that was off...

    And for us, it definitely was NOT conduct disorder. Nor Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). There is no label for it, the best way I can describe it is "induced psychosis". He was going insane in his brain - as a result of everything he had been put through in life.

    Now that he has the right dxes and the right help (and NONE of the dxes left on the table is a mental illness)... that look is GONE. And so are the scary behaviors that go with it.

    Which is why I'm wary of a CD diagnosis at this age. The history is such that... there could be a raft of other things happening, and the behavior and the eyes and everything else - which matches CD to a T - may in fact not be "genetic" but the result of other things... and may be possible to reverse. There is just no way to know. But you have to work with what you have for medical help... and if the CD diagnosis is getting you help that is actually working... then run with it.
  14. Steely

    Steely Active Member

    OH so many are handling this so well. I am not sure I could handle a kid like this without absolutely freaking out. I am so sorry you are going through this.

    What did you find out about where you are in Canada and children psychiatric units? If he is doing illegal things like hurting someone, is there a phosph that he can be transported to?

    I love that the psychiatrist has referred you to bonding therapy - fantastic idea.
  15. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    While we have many pics of Wiz looking hateful and he often had a really scary look in his eyes, and he did MANY violent things to us, we did not ever see what you are seeing. As long as you know that he has not been abused in any way - and I am NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT accusing you of ever hurting him on purpose in any way, then it sure sounds like your diagnosis is right.

    Here in the states there are some docs that will give kids as young as 2 a CD diagnosis. My mom had a cousin contact me via facebook because her 2yo got a CD diagnosis after the daycare sent a letter to the pediatrician and the therapist. The child isn't, he has problems but they were not seeing anything like what you see. It took pushing for evaluations and some new docs, but it sounds very different than what you are seeing.

    There are people who can tell who is hurting from how they move, etc.... One cousin has a daughter who has accurately predicted the sex, hair and eye color of over 50 newborns - she was wrong only one time and that was because it was fraternal twins - got the hair of one and the eye color of the other. She is also amazingly able to tell when and where someone is hurting when she sees them. The problem that can arise is that knowing where someone is hurting means you know where to hit or hurt them for maximum pain, Know what I mean?? I think that is what I would worry about with your child, from all you say.

    I am sorry you are having to cope with this. Are there resources that can help with him if/when it is unsafe for him to live with you? I would push to get his rages and moods etc.... documented, at least in a journal. I also strongly urge you to start a parent report - it is one of the strongest tools for getting the right help for your kids. Also keep very close eyes on the other kids - watch to see if they are having problems because him. Their well being is as important as his, which MANY MANY docs just do NOT get. At least not ones we have seen.
  16. Malika

    Malika Well-Known Member

    Hi ept. Hugs to you this fine day... May I be frank with you? Well, you are not in a position to refuse but... as I read your posts I am a little disturbed. Of course by what your son is doing but also by the firm conclusion that you have come to that he is "evil". I cannot see your son, how much can one tell from typed posts on a computer, you are on the ground and are the one in the position to know but... Could you answer this question honestly: has or does your son never, ever have any other kind of behaviour? Never shows the slightest affection to anyone or anything? If your honest answer is no, never, then I agree that you are looking at something unusual. If not... jury's out, really, I think as to why a child might behave this way - I do think Insane makes some good points. If I could share a little about my son - he is basically a very affectionate, loving boy and despite the difficulty of his behaviour at times, most people find him sweet. HOWEVER, there have been times - less now - when I swear I am dealing with a hostile, aggressive, unnatural child who seems more like a teenage hoodlum (seriously) than a pre-schooler. He has said terrible things about wanting to cut me, or shoot me... Just last night, actually, in the midst of a mini-rage he had about having to go inside the house and his friend having to go, I tripped and fell. He laughed and rubbed his hands... This is so unlike the "normal" J who is so quick to help people when they are hurt in any way, but something seems to happen to his brain or personaility in these moments of intense emotion... So... all that to say that I really think you should, to the extent possible, keep away from absolutely cut and dried judgements about your son yet. Call me a bleeding heart liberal but I do refuse to say that there is no hope whatsoever or movement or change for a six year old... And yes, yes, yes, you are the one on the ground with him and the one who can see and experience...
  17. whatamess

    whatamess New Member

    Just to clarify, I am not saying your son is on the autism spectrum, but if some of his behaviors are coming from a similar neurological starting point (whatever the label) I think it's a good thing to hear from those who have seen and experienced similar things and how they view it and approach it.
  18. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    I like Susie's idea of documenting rages and behaviors in a journal.
    Not that you need more work, but that it really does help, both you and the doctors. And in the long run, your difficult child.
  19. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Malika, people found Ted Bundy quite charming and likable too but just look at the carnage he left in his wake. Having known a mini Ted Bundy, and I have no idea what has happened to that kid because they moved away, I do feel that you can call a child evil even though you may see some periods of fun or what is most likely fake fun. I would bet deep inside the child has no idea how to really bond with anyone in order to actually form relationships so he can have real fun.
  20. buddy

    buddy New Member

    I think if we read EPT's signature she has said he has been diagnosed with attachment disorder. If I remember, he had a really rocky start...tons of crying and inability to bond. One of the symptoms of Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) is angry/hostile parents (NOT calling you names, this is on the common lists out there) and I know for me this fits at times. It is not that the angry hostile parent causes the Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) symptoms...that is the huge misconception in professionals not experienced in treating these is that they are so frustrating and mean and there is not a normal connection PLUS everyone blames the parents. How do you come away from that without getting angry etc. EPT has two other kids who are doing fine (except for the stress of difficult child, right?) developmentally speaking. She knows how to bond. So no matter the final diagnosis I agree that as long as it gets her the treatment that will offer her and her difficult child some hope and relief that is what is important. First things first, they need support and a direction. What I hear in EPT's posts (feels weird to talk about you that way, and feel free to correct me if I am misunderstanding) that she is arming herself against the chance of a heart-breaking decision...that her child may not be able to live with them from this very young age...and she has stated that is not her goal and she thinks it would be a terrible option. But EPT, make no mistake, that does not mean, if it comes to that, you are a failed parent or that you are not parenting him anymore...that means you will be making a decision to parent him in the way that meets his needs and helps him to develop to his potential. It is a huge loss of a parental dream for raising children. Very painful.