Need to pick some brains please

[Tiapet]

So now I have some questions for ya'll in this forum about the younger difficult children.

I'll start with the youngest. Boogerman has a couple of things that I'm trying to figure out on what to do about and how to handle. The first is peeing all over the floor and toilet seat. He is 13 and still doing it. We have been after him for years about this. He used to poop in his pants and sometimes there was pee too. He has gotten better about the poo and pee there. Only on rare occasion is there pee and the poo seems to be more related to not wiping properly, not for lack of being taught either. He will be all over the floor all around the toilet and sometimes in the area slightly away from the toilet as well so it's more then "just missing". We've tried everything from having everyone just leaving the seat up (which the girls resent but relented to just to try to curb some of it). He most of the time refuses to clean up the mess he makes too. It becomes a fight to get him to do it.

The other issue we have (we actually have a lot of issues in this house and with everyone but I'm trying to focus on a few) is that he has been stealing the girls bras, well mainly the younger difficult child's bras now. It's been going on now for about 4 years. Some times we've caught him stealing camisoles, silky night gowns, swimsuits, older difficult child/easy child thong/underwear, etc. Usually very girly type articles. I've tried talking to him repeatedly of why he does it. We are a very open and understanding household so he knows that if it's because he feels "female" or "gay" or anything like that it's ok. The girls have even offered up a bra specifically for him to curb him from taking others but it didn't really help. I "think" it has slowed down slightly from the level it used to be but he's still doing it.

We've found them hidden in the bathroom, he's put them on and gone in the bathtub and "swum' with the bathing suits, sometimes the underwear I believe. We usually find the bras tucked alongside his bed or under his pillow. There doesn't seem to be evidence that he is "using" them for any "boy" objectification (if you get what I mean). One time he gave me an excuse that he liked to put them on his pillow to "sleep" on but I don't believe that as I've never seen evidence of that at all and you have to understand that he "has to be" put to bed and he "has to be" woken up in the morning so we'd see it as we also go in his room at night. Only once did I ever catch him with anything on and it was a camisole. I do believe it may have to do with the feeling of it as he does have serious sensory issues and likes the feel of certain things. He has furry blankets that he has always needed and many times when his anxieties fun high he seeks out certain sensory items. But I don't think that has anything to do with the bras as they are not really silky or touch friendly in my opinion. He also is not very "feminine" in any other way in his mannerisms at all. It's all very confusing.

As for difficult child 14 yo daughter, her issues are just so complex and all encompassing. Just too many. We've all been trying to pick them all apart for years to figure out just how to identify what all is wrong. Let's just say she has the house held hostage by them all!

Any thoughts on Boogerman? Anyone have any experience with what he's doing and why?

 

[ItSnowed]

I really wish I had words of advice here. But that is stumping. If it makes you feel any better, I made my son pee outside for years (it was the only way I was able to train him NOT to pee in his pants).

 

[InsaneCdn]

How about if I tackle the girl problem instead?
I don't know what all she's had for evaluations, but... ADHD is an "interesting" diagnosis. Usually, there is either "ADHD PLUS", or the ADHD is really a broader-spectrum thing like Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD).

But the PLUS stuff... Frequently with ADHD there will be
- motor skills problems
- LDs
- APDs
- if things haven't been caught early, add in depression and/or anxiety as secondary dxes

Has she ever had an Occupational Therapist (OT) evaluation for motor and sensory?
Has she ever had a detailed Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) evaluation, looking for hidden APDs? (not language processing, but sound filtering, for example?)

 

[Tiapet]

ItSnowed, if I let him go outside (which I really couldn't here) he'd love it and "that" would become a really big problem. LOL

Insane, she has had every known type of evaluation you can think of over the years. The only thing left she hasn't had done at moment is an MRI (she even had EEG) that we had sought thinking a possible BI due to a surgery she had a years ago (she's had several) but since they said even with it there really would be nothing they could do different then they are doing now other then "giving another label" to what is wrong with her, there would be no point.

We have been looking at so many different things. Prader Willi for the eating issue, ruled out, fragile x, ruled out. We have looked at an attachment issue and might actually be relooking at that again since some of her behaviors are overlaping and since she has such medical issues that "could" trigger it (she doesn't have any reasoning that would have caused it).

We have learned that she obsessively thinks about many things as the thoughts get stuck like on food but I've recently noticed that she will also go to food when something is bugging her like for instance her boy-friend (friend) doesn't call as she expects or she is upset over something she will want food like "now" and say she is starving even if she just at a full meal. But it's not the only times food is an issue. She is a hoarder and steals food and hence why house is in lock down over it. She is severely manipulative and triangulates every/anyone. She tries to control everything and everyone, including in/at school.

She believes her stuffed animals are real and has conversations with them. That has been going on since she has been very little. Just recently she told us that she has seen "cats" in her room or at school. She also told us that years ago when she stayed overnight at a friends house (she was young) she saw an old lady. There was another incident as well some time ago. She had never told us this before. She at times seems to not be in "reality". One teacher 2 years ago asked us if we ever considered multiple personalities. I have never seen real evidence of that nor considered that but I can say that she is very Jekyll and hyde like often. She has a weird way in that sometimes she refuses to be called by her nickname (which is most often used) and when that occurs her mannerisms/hair tend to be different then any other time though it's not often.

She could be crying hysterically one minute and a second later she can either stop dead or begin laughing almost pscyhotically. Often she can also cry and it's not a real cry too. She forms attachments really quickly, though they aren't real. For example, she may meet someone at say a park and befriend them and then cry hysterically that she will never see them again as if she knew them forever. Like those with attachment issues, she seeks out anyone that will give her attention (and she is far from attention starved by any means and never has lacked any attention).

She will give out too much information to anyone at any time. She overwhelms everyone everywhere so much so that she can't maintain friendships though adults adore her and think the world of her and really don't "see" anything wrong with her. They think she is charming and intelligent but the reality is that she lacks common sense on virtually all levels (which is weird as she is smart enough to get away with so many different things). She often acts like she is MR and doesn't "get it" on anything but we can't figure out why. Our saying is "does she get it and if she does, does she even care?"

She doesn't get connections to anything like if I do A then B will happen even when she will repeatedly do A and B does happen (negative things). That's where that saying comes in, doesn't she get it? Who would want to keep doing something that would have bad consequences?

She had lied, will lie. She has stolen, will steal. She stole $20 right out of my purse, gave it to a male friend of hers at the time-no longer is (who is 18). Luckily by her behavior at the moment I knew something was up and checked purse, found it gone and her and immediately went after her. She denied she took it but the male immediately turned it over to me (he actually is a good kid). I got her in car and asked her what she was going to do with it. Her answer......I gave it to him so he could go to the store and get me some stuff (candy, etc..). yeah right. Maybe but then again.....

She's stolen cigarettes from me in the past, though hasn't done that in a looooong time. We learned a long time ago that she is a medication seeker. When she was on pain medications after surgery I noticed it first as she was wanting more and more. Then after that (years ago) it seemed if she got sick she would always be asking for medications or what time can she get more medication. She clearly knows what medications will effect her and how. When she was on the pain medication she would "play" with the effects of it. She still will "play" up on the effects of any medications now that may have some kind of altering affect.

There is a ton more to be said. It's been a giant riddle/puzzle to me that I've been trying to put together for years and as time is going on, more is coming out and she is aging so more things can and do happen with her ability to do more (like running off, staying out, etc). The worst that happened lately was her anger/rage where she literally punched an kicked me for 30 minutes. I had to call crisis who ended up doing absolutely NOTHING! She thinks nothing of kicking me (if I'm driving the car and she is behind me and mad she will kick seat or hit me), hitting me at times. She constantly will trash anything in sight if she is mad, slap my laptop closed even if my hands are typing. These are all new things as she has aged so it's getting worse. *sigh* I knew she was going to be my worst one years ago but I surely did not expect this stuff.

 

[susiestar]

What does Boogerman love? What can he NOT live without? Every time he leaves the bathroom clean he earns X amt of Favorite Item (FI). Every time he leaves urine on the seat he loses FI for x amt of time. On the floor? Lose FI for Y amt of time. He MUST clean up or he loses FI for 2X or 2Y amt of time. Cleaning up after being caught with NO fight, delay or backtalk earns him a cleaning reward - NOT FI but 2nd FI time.

If you know he loved video games and is just DYING to get game Q or Z, go and buy it. He gets 2 hours to play the day you buy it. Then YOU take custody and he must earn ALL time with it via bathroom manners.

Consider writing down the steps for urinating and supervising him until he clearly knows the steps. A hassle and embarrassing for him, but he can avoid it by not going everywhere. So it is his CHOICE to be supervised or not, not you imposing. No going to ANYONE"s house or whatever stores, places he likes until he reliably uses appropriate bathroom manners. ESPECIALLY make sure he knows he will lose the favorite non-home place until that happens if that is at all possible.

Don't jump in with ANY of these steps until you have it all figured out in a plan and you have it written down so you don't forget and you THINK about the plan. Think of the plan like the boat that will carry you over the ocean of pee he has left on the floor over all these years. You sure don't want to capsize in that ocean, so you have to make sure to plug ALL the holes and leaks in the boat/plan before you start the journey. You are better off not trying to get away from the problem than to just jump in.

Don't just use one of these things. You have probably done rewards, etc... for a long time with no results. This time you must be diabolical and really get to what he loves and what he abhors and use those against him. Bigtime use them against him and ignore his whines and tantrums over not having/going/doing what he loves until he does what he needs to do. I am guessing he doesn't go many places with peers because they don't want to spend time wth a kid who smells. if they haven't started this, they will soon, esp the girls.

First though, has he been completely evaluated by a urologist? there may be some medical issue that contributes tot his that is urinary rather than odd/adhd/alphasoup issues.

on the other hand, it may just be that it is fun to watch it spray everywhere. In that case try a toilet game. Sounds dumb, but have hm sink the cheerios. Or draw targets on toilet paper and have him try to hit them. I think you can buy them for little kids. I wish you lived in Japan because they came out with toilet video games for guys because guys are nasty slobs in public bathrooms (in my coed college dorm the guys would see how far back they could stand and hit the urinal or how long they could hit the ceiling, etc... ).

I don't understand it, but most guys go through a stage or twelve where they want to do strange things with pee, like pee on a bee or write in snow. I saw a blurb on a website about a guy who asked his girlfriend to marry him by writing "will you marry me" in the snow - with pee. EEEEEUUUUUUUUUWWWWWWWWW. I didn't get to whether she said yes or not, mostly because I don't want to think about a woman who would say yes to that!

I would NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT have hm pee outside. Yes, it solves the cleanup issues. But if ANYONE, esp a little girl, sees him it could result in major problems. He probably won't discriminate between peeing at home behind a bush and at school or the ball field or park with people around. Then someone will call the police and he could actually end up on the sex offender registry and YOU could be in trouble for making him pee outside. CPS could also become involved if he told a teacher or other adult that you wouldn't let him use the bathroom. It would be VERY serious and you probably would be in HUGE trouble. It just isn't worth it.

I wish I had more help for you. You might find ideas and help in Parenting your teen with Love and logic.

 

[Tiapet]

SS, you know, some of what you said made a whole lot of sense! Yes, we have done rewards/consequence to death by now and I have read love and logic book (and all the others too). He is a silly/clown type kid so you idea of a "game" might be a good one! Never thought of it from that angle for him though because I always thought he might twist things we do but in this case it may actually work if I combine it with something else as well in case he takes the "game" aspect in the wrong direction by being too silly with it. I think I will try the cheerio idea and couple it with a reward. It may work. On the rare occasion I've gotten him to clean it up but had something really big to hold over his head he wanted. So, um yeah, you had a really good thought! Thanks!

Now if I could just figure out his bra stealing thing. My youngest daughter difficult child would be so much happier. She isn't allowed a lock on her bedroom door and oldest has one so he can't really access her things anymore unless they happen to be around which is rare too.

 

[Hound dog]

Well.................... oddly enough, 12 may not be too young for a "fetish" to develop. (I dunno, you'd have to ask a professional or do some research) But once you said they're not tactile friendly garments per se, and that he doesn't seem to lean to feminine traits/behavior ect, that was the first thing that popped into mind. But what I've seen with various documentaries, if you've ruled out the other possibilities, this "might" be the reason.

I'm not sure I can help with the peeing issue. husband was 63 and couldn't hit the darn toilet, yet Travis who is blind can. lol

 

[DammitJanet]

I have one who cant hit the darned toilet if you put a bullseye on it. The cheerio's might work but we keep towels around the bottom of the toilet to help keep cleanup easier. Every other day he has to just pick them up and toss them in the washer. If he is peeing on the wall too, maybe one of those swiffer type things would make cleanup easier and just tell him...look, you did it, you have to deal with it. This longer pole will make it much more pleasant.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Ahem. If yer aim is that poor, then yer needs to get yer gun closer to the targit. And yes I mean that. Unless your knees are in the condition of H&R or Janet herself... bend yer knees and get DOWN there. Then, it's really hard to miss (not impossible).

 

[StressedM0mma]

Simple solution. Make him sit to go. (Yeah I know there are now simple solutions.) I like the game idea.

About the bra/cami panty stealing: It could be a sensory thing. All 3 are silky somewhat. The little brother of a friend of difficult child's would carry around barbie clothes. The silky dresses. he would rub them and suck his thumb. So it may just feel nice. And, just because you are not finding "evidence" of 14 yr old boy behavior does not mean it isn't happening. That was the first thing that popped into my head when I read what was going on. Hope you can curb some of it.

 

[TerryJ2]

I'm with the others. You have to shadow him and make sure he cleans up and only give him what he wants (in our case, video games) when he has cleaned up.
We are still going through this, although my son is a better aim now.
Some of it has to do with germs, some with-being lazy, some with-not thinking. He just doesn't "see" it.
In regard to the girls' items, we have the same issue.
It comes and goes, depending upon his stress level or whatever is going on in his mind and his life. We have had long talks with-the therapist, to no avail. I went out and bought things, but difficult child didn't want those. He wanted only those that belonged to certain people. So it's got to have a sexual, warm, caring connection. And since our difficult child is Aspie and not good about social relationships, quite frankly, even though it spooks us a bit, I'd rather have him do this than the real thing. Sigh.
We have tried to explain to him that we don't care what he wears, but if does it at camp or at school, he will probably be beaten up. Seriously.
We have also explained that it is stealing, plain and simple.
So we are guessing that he's just going to have to learn the hard way, the way he always learns ...
Wish I could be of more help.

I don't have any advice about your daughter. Just support.

 

[Tiapet]

hound - we have thought about the fetish aspect, like perhaps cross dressing because once, and only once, we did find a old velvet dress of my oldest in his room (though again, never found that he had put it on). But hey, it's ok, it it's going to be his thing then so be it. I'm just more concerned of something sinister in the making as I'm aware of another difficult child that started out on a small scale like this and later in life it grew into something very bad and now, well let's just say the end is not good. I want to be aware so I can do what I can, if I can should that be the case. I don't know that it is so I just keep a watchful eye to help protect any and all involved (whether it's himself from potential bullying or others if it's something else).

stressed- we've told him to sit, he won't. As for the material, most of them tend to actually be scratchy (at least to me) so I don't think that's it. If they were silky I'd surely think it might be as that would draw him with his sensory issues.

terry- your difficult child sounds similiar to mine. We have often thought he might be on the spectrum due to some of the things he has displayed. He was once on a waiting list for testing but then we moved. His way of play (lining up of his hotwheels and god forbid anyone touches them, obsessing over cars and talking mostly of them, legos/building etc). He has social issues and can't maintain any type of friendships either. He ends up acting inappropriate in one way or another. He "just doesn't get it." He is very bright and can be a good student. The only thing that holds him back is homework (which we have sort of worked around).

His team worker once described him, as many of our kids could be, as like a soda bottle at school. They get all shaken up trying to contain themselves there (well behaved for the most part) until the get home and then release the cork. Then there is no containing them and hence, you can't get them to focus and get their homework done. They've had enough. It's just too much for them. This is the first year after fighting for 4 years that I was able to actually get something in the IEP to help him with this issue. For schools, all they care about is kids get homework and it must be done. Period. Not the case. There is a way to work with them and around that issue.

 

[Hound dog]

hound - we have thought about the fetish aspect, like perhaps cross dressing because once, and only once, we did find a old velvet dress of my oldest in his room (though again, never found that he had put it on). But hey, it's ok, it it's going to be his thing then so be it. I'm just more concerned of something sinister in the making as I'm aware of another difficult child that started out on a small scale like this and later in life it grew into something very bad and now, well let's just say the end is not good. I want to be aware so I can do what I can, if I can should that be the case. I don't know that it is so I just keep a watchful eye to help protect any and all involved (whether it's himself from potential bullying or others if it's something else).

Yup. That's what I was thinking.

For a lot of fetishes, it's the sneaking part that is appealing as much as the fetish. Of course since he's taking his sister's undergarments, you can't give him free reign to them just on the fact they don't belong to him. So I dunno how you'd be able to curb the sneaking aspect. As like you said, one sis giving him something didn't work.

Hopefully it's a minor fetish that will pass given time.

((hugs))

 

[susiestar]

I have been thinking on the underwear thing. What sensory issues does he have? My kids ALL have significant sensory issues, but for the most part they are not a big deal to me because I have a lot of my own. They were a huge deal to husband because he didn't really have any, but I mellowed that out of him with mine, and by showing him how providing the sensory input they were seeking, or reducing what they coudn't handle, made life really good around here. The neuropsychologist we spoke to about Jess said taht many neuropsychs are now thinking that adhd is at the light end of the autism spectrum, that it is actually an autism spectrum disorder but they don't tell many parents that because they freak out so hard. Sensory integration disorder is also on that spectrum, or so he claimed.

Does he choose a specific texture or a few specific textures, like always going for the silky ones or the lacy ones? If so, why not get some fabric and make something for him with that texture so that he doesn't have to take their bras? I know one young man who kept stealing his mom and sister's underwear because it was the silky or nylon kind and guys underwear is mostly cotton or if it is silky fabric it is boxers and they are very loose. His mom finally got some not too feminine looking silky underwear that fit him and he wore it at night at home and stopped taking other people's underwear. He just could not stand the feel of cotton underwear once he figured out that other stuff was available even if it was for girls. She also made several pillow cases out of that type of material so that he didn't have to always have his hands in his pants to feel the texture when he was at home. his dad was rather disturbed because he slept with ihs hand in his pants all the time. At one point she even put pockets made out of that material in some of his pants so that he could have that texture at school with-o getting teased. By late high school they had figured out that there are some lines of men's underwear at some stores that are silk or at least not cotton. he had to pay the difference in price, but those really helped the issue.

I wonder if a solution like that might help, esp if he is not using them for fantasizing? If it is the silky texture he likes, you can easily add a bit of it to anythng with a bit of seam binding. It is even carried at walmart and it has a silky texture that a lot of women's things are made out of and it comes in lots of colors. Or maybe searching ebay and closeout specials for silk shirts might help? Jess had only one real sensory thing and that was silky textured fabric. she couldn't sleep with-o a blanket with that texture at least on the edges. I used to have several silk sleep shirts and other silk shirts and finally just gave up buying them because she kept appropriating them even when they were miles too big for her.

It is just a thought. the other thought is that if he wants them then he needs to have his own and not take theirs. or he should pay to replace any he takes, esp if his sisters are upset by his stealing them and can't stand to wear them if they know he has had them. Given the ages, he is plenty old enough to work at least around the house to earn money to buy them, even if he can't actually go into the store to get them and needs you to do that because he is embarrassed.

 

[Tiapet]

susie, he has fuzzy/furry blankets he "must" sleep with (3 different kinds) and we've also bought silky pillow cases for him. The bras are all different textures and it doesn't seem to be a sensory thing with them as they are not silky but scratchy or just no "nice" texture to them. I honestly do not think this is a sensory thing to him at all. This is something of a different natured beast. lol Giving him his own doesn't work, it must be one of theirs, period. Having him pay for them won't stop him from doing it, he would still keep taking them. He does chores already to earn things or pay back on things. I am really leaning towards the fetish thing at the moment.

Recently he has also just in the last month or two developed a new habit, entirely different. He's filling ziplock bags with water in the bath tub (sometimes not in the bath tub). We're finding them stashed in the linen closet or in his room, in his dresser. No clue what he is doing with them. Today we found about 4 of them. Previously it was only 1 large one. Strange. I know he likes playing with water and always has, like the hose or taking long baths, etc. but this is strange one. lol

He's definitely got some quirks. I wouldn't mind it but to leave them laying around, they tend to leak and then leave water messes. Oh yeah, and we find middle difficult child's bathing suits wet as well and we know he's put them on and worn them in bath tub. That very well may be the feeling. *sigh*

 

[InsaneCdn]

Has he ever had an Occupational Therapist (OT) evaluation for sensory issues? It's not too late...