new member

[Luvbooks7]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new here, and feeling my way around. I do have one question, no doubt the first of many:

My daughter was diagnosed with ODD and she's 10, this has been escalating, the out of control defiance, for years, we're currently in crisis mode, but my question is this- if she "can't help it" during a screaming (either yelling or hysterical crying in result of a request to "clean your room" "pick up your socks you just threw down on the frontroom floor") yet when I put a tape recorder out to record her, she claps her hand over her mouth and quiets down remarkably fast, how is this her not being able to control the outburst?

I have a lot to learn, I've armed myself with books "the Defiant Child" "The manipulative child" "The explosive child" and a few others, if the kids sleep tonight I"ll skim through the books and read more thoroughly while I wait for her at her first counseling appointment on Thursday.

I'm reading the older posts at the forum, what a relief knowing there are others who feel stressed out, who may have been abused by a former partner or spouse, and now the children are repeating some of it and I'm not the only parent who is disliking my child......

I"m at the beginning of this journey with my daughter, hopefully we can get out of crisis mode and learn how to cope and function and hopefully she can learn to become less miserable.

 

[BusynMember]

Hi. I'm sorry you have to be here, but welcome to the board.

A lot of us who post here feel that ODD never stands alone. In fact, the Big Guru of ODD (Dr. Chandler) says the same thing. ODD is usually a symptom of a bigger disorder. Has she ever had a neuropsychologist evaluation? Aside from that I have some questions that can help us help you.

1/What type of professional diagnosed her?

2/Are there any psychiatric problems on either side of her genetic family tree, including father, even if he has never met her...she still has 50% of his genes. Often psychiatric conditions are hereditary and lead us in the right direction.

3/How was her early development, such as speech, eye contact with you and strangers, sensitivity to sounds/light/certain foods & fabrics? Did she play appropriately with toys? Any strange quirks? Any obsessions? Is she inflexible? Can she transition from one activity to another without a meltdown? Does she know how to hold a give-and-take conversation or does she sort of monologue at people or just answer "yes" and "no." How are her social skills with her same age peers? How does she do in school?

Others will come along.

 

[Luvbooks7]

Hi. I'm sorry you have to be here, but welcome to the board.


Thank you!



A lot of us who post here feel that ODD never stands alone. In fact, the Big Guru of ODD (Dr. Chandler) says the same thing. ODD is usually a symptom of a bigger disorder. Has she ever had a neuropsychologist evaluation? Aside from that I have some questions that can help us help you.

1/What type of professional diagnosed her?-- She was diagnosed by a doctor (psychiatrist?) With ODD. She was threatening to kill herself, her 7 year old brother, and me. I called 911 and the sheriff told me they would Baker Act her and send her to the local mental health facility for a 72 hour evaluation. The paperwork said that the doctor diagnosed her with ODD.

2/Are there any psychiatric problems on either side of her genetic family tree, including father, even if he has never met her...she still has 50% of his genes. Often psychiatric conditions are hereditary and lead us in the right direction.-- Her father has recently been diagnosed with schizophrenia. As a child he was on Ritalin for either ADD or ADHD (I can't remember which one). I don't speak with him but he is allowed to speak with her on the phone an hour on Sunday nights. He isn't allowed to visit with her.



3/How was her early development, such as speech, eye contact with you and strangers, sensitivity to sounds/light/certain foods & fabrics?-- She spoke at a young age, first word "Pretty" and by a year was speaking in fairly well constructed sentences "I don't want it" was a favorite of hers. I don't recall any sensitivity with sound or light or food, etc. She has distinctive bright blue eyes and people would stop us in the grocery store to comment on how pretty she was.
Is poor hygeine and thumb sucking at age 10 a means for concern? I know it's not right.


Did she play appropriately with toys? - she did and does seem to play well. As long as she has things go her way, she's content. With anyone else, she's bossy.

Any strange quirks? I need to think about this one. Not sure if this is a quirk or what but I'm trying to figure out a way to lock up all the food, and things like nail polish, she will take things that make no sense like parmesan cheese and just inhale it, yet catch her with it in her hand or on her face and "mom is crazy". She denies any wrongdoing all the time.

Any obsessions?- She thinks she's a queen. Seriously, she just wants to play nonstop. Or sleep. Or eat.



Is she inflexible? Yes, as long as she's in control, makes all decisions and choices, she's fine. We have a set schedule as best we can, I write down the things on a chalk board in the frontroom, School, a few chores, etc, Wednesday is library day, things like that. The smallest change can set her off into a tantrum.


Can she transition from one activity to another without a meltdown? If she chooses to switch it's fine. If I say okay dinner in 1 minutes, go wash your hands and put the homework down, toy up, whatever, then since I'm choosing for her, a meltdown happens.


Does she know how to hold a give-and-take conversation or does she sort of monologue at people or just answer "yes" and "no." --If she initiates the conversation it's ok. If someone asks her something especially if it's not about her, she just either tunes out, or acts bored and there isn't a conversation.



How are her social skills with her same age peers?-- she says she has friends, I never see them. Her teachers do complain that she would rather talk than do class work. Emotionally I see her miles behind her peers, my son is 3 years younger and sometimes it feels like he's the older one.


How does she do in school?---Her grades are deplorable. One C the rest D's or F's. PE is passing because it's pass/fail and she shows up for it. She says she never has homework yet her teachers at the conference told me I need to get on her more about doing homework. Earlier in the year the same teachers told me to quit "hovering" and allow her to become more independent.

I think she's depressed since life is "stupid and boring" along with everything else.
The really scary part of when I call her by her nickname and she looks at me blankly and coldly and says that that person is dead. Being sweet and good are stupid as far as she's concerned. But when I ask what her name is, even calling her by her given name, she tells me that she's also dead and gone.

We have our first Therapy session, well she does, on Thursday. She had the 72 hour evaluation, then a follow up C PAC appointment and next will be her in therapy alone.

I hope and pray that I will know how to speak with the counselor myself, if I"m allowed to, because she's all ready threatened me with the sheriff saying I beat her up. They came out and of course saw that I do not. She's very good, dare I say better than I am, at getting people to believe what she says.
Many Times I've been on the phone with the school, teacher and dean, asking them what their letter they expected me to write for her entailed and hearing that they have no idea what I was talking about.
in other words pitting me against someone else, good cop bad cop sort of thing.

Thank you for writing on the forum. I'm reading "The Whipped Parent" by Kimberly Abraham right now. I'm learning a lot.

Lisa aka luvbooks

Others will come along.

............

 

[sunxstone]

Hi Luvbooks! I just wanted to give you a hug and welcome you to the board. I'm sorry you're going through it, but you'll find amazing support here.

 

[KTMom91]

Welcome from a fellow book junkie!

 

[Luvbooks7]

1/What type of professional diagnosed her? When the sheriff came to the house and Baker Acted her, she was sent to the local mental health center in town for 72 hours. A doctor diagnosed her, I assume it was a psychiatrist.


2/Are there any psychiatric problems on either side of her genetic family tree, including father, even if he has never met her...she still has 50% of his genes. Often psychiatric conditions are hereditary and lead us in the right direction.--------------Yes her dad who speaks with her on the phone once a week, took Ritalin for either ADD or ADHD as a child. He was diagnosed with Schizophrenia within the last 2 years.

3/How was her early development, such as speech, eye contact with you and strangers, sensitivity to sounds/light/certain foods & fabrics

--

When she was little, she spoke well, and often. She likes meeting people, her teachers have told me shes "too social at the wrong times". I never noticed any sensitivity to light or fabric, or food.

? Did she play appropriately with toys?

As long as she chooses, yes. It's when someone chooses for her that she has a problem. Or when playing with others, if she isn't dictating how to play, she gets upset.


Any strange quirks? Not strange, but not age appropriate. She's 10 and still sucks her thumb. She does this thing with her tongue, a cross between licking her lips and chewing on her tongue. Now that is strange. Strange behavior, now she will sneak soup cans or whatever into her room, eat part of it and leave it to rot in her room. Smear food on the walls, sprinkle coffee or flour all over her carpet. Be caught literally wearing parmesan cheese on her face while holding the bottle, trying to hide it so I don't see it and denying that she's even near it. Blows my mind! And the poor cats, she bullies one often, the poor thing runs away from her all the time.


Any obsessions? -- Being in control, being the boss.

Is she inflexible? --absolutely. As long as she decides or chooses she's fine. It's the being told to do something that just brings on a temper fit. I've put up a chalk board in the frontroom and write down daily, school, feed dog, which day of the week is library day, etc. I tell her to choose the order of doing the things on her list, but she still rebels. She'd rather stare into space, sleep, eat or play than do homework or anything that she doesnt want to do.
Her one teacher said that she seems to resent being told to write in her planner at school.


Can she transition from one activity to another without a meltdown? Again, as long as she's in control of what she will do next and when she will choose it, she's fine. If someone tells her to do something even as simple as wash your hands for dinner in 10 minutes, she just has a meltdown.


Does she know how to hold a give-and-take conversation or does she sort of monologue at people or just answer "yes" and "no."

If she wants to talk about something, usually something about herself, oh my friend has this pretty dress, or my friend wants to trade something with me. She's fine. If I talk to her about something, she tunes out and is like whatever.

How are her social skills with her same age peers?-- She's miles behind her peers emotionally for sure. And I've never seen such a drama queen.

How does she do in school?--She's intelligent, but makes quick careless mistakes and her grades aren't good at all. Pass/fail, she's passing PE and Music since they don't do a whole lot there. Social Studies, English, Math Reading, Science and the other subjects are all D's on the progress report. They're on spring break and get a report card on the 16th. I don't expect that she's brought her grades up since she tells me no homework at all, constantly, yet the teachers at the last conferenece told me to make sure she does her homework. At the beginning of the year these same teachers told me to quit hovering around her and let her become more independent.
Darned if I do darned if I don't it feels like.

Thanks everyone for the welcomes!

i'm nervous about the first therapy session she has on Thursday, she is quite good at manipulating and she's brought the sheriff's out a few times claiming I'm abusing her. There's a department of Children and Families worker investigating us now.

Can anyone give me any idea on who to talk to about my question- yes another one here- her brother is just 7, she bullies him often, it goes beyond normal sibling rivalry, but how can I keep him safe from her? I know there should be someone in "authority" to ask, I feel that my responsibility as a parent is to keep ALL of my children safe, not just allow her to run things.

And a great little book I just skimmed through- The Whipped Parent by Kimberly Abraham MSW, has lots of tips and just generally made me feel like less a failure as a parent.

lisa/luvbooks

 

[TerryJ2]

Hi fellow book lover! Welcome.

Sounds like you're onto something here. I agree, ODD is just a symptom.

She has some things in common with-my son, who is SO bossy and SO much wanting to be in charge, I can't stand it. One night when he was about 5, I told him he had to put ME to bed and tuck ME in. HE did it and actually did a good job, but of course I had to sneak up and make sure he went to bed, later. I tried it again and it didn't work the 2nd time.

One thing I'd suggest for your daughter, is joining her in cleaning her room, and instead of saying "clean your room," say, "Let's go pick up all the dirty clothes off of your floor and throw them in the laundry. Then you can color in your book." I have found that "Clean your room" is like lighting a cannon fuse. It's way too overwhelming ... and my son is 13!

I agree that you have to keep all of your children safe. Does your 7-yr-old do well alone in his room? Can you give him a certain space and time, say, an hr by himself every day, where you can keep the 10-yr-old occupied and away from him?
Do you use babysitters? how does she react to them? Maybe you could hire a babysitter for her, while you do something with-your son.
Just some ideas.

 

[Marguerite]

MidwestMom, I can hear you thinking again. Great minds...

luvbooks, although she has been evaluated, she probably needs a thorough diagnostic workup. Any results already available form past diagnostic sessions could make it a bit easier, but it sounds to me like there wasn't much serious diagnosing going on, just "gut feeling".

Something to think about - go to www.childbrain.com and look for their Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) questionnaire. Even if it's not Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), having your own printout of her results (whatever the result) can point doctors towards the areas of your concern. YOu of course can't use this to diagnose, but you can use it to help you think about possibilities.

And even a working hypothesis can help, in the meantime.

Marg

 

[BusynMember]

Marg, you know exactly what I'm thinking

Luvbooks, in my opinion, you should take her to a neuropsychologist. I have a son with Aspergers/high functioning autism and she shares a lot of his symptoms and behaviors. A psychiatrist often misses that because it's a neuroloigcal problem, but it's important to have an evaluation. NeuroPsychs test for 6-10 hours rather than listening and just coming to snap diagnoses. My son was very hard to diagnosis. and he ended up wrongly diagnosed twice and on a slew of medications that he didn't need because he didn't really have a psychiatric problem. He needed school interventions such as social skills classes, speech (to learn how to hold a conversation) and, in his case, PT and Occupational Therapist (OT) when he was younger. I suspected Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) from early on so he got the interventions anyway because I insisted and went to great lengths to make sure he got them. I'm not saying that your daughter has this, but it's worth evaluating her COMPLETELY before treating her. If you don't, she may be getting treatment for the wrong problem(s).

Oppositional kids are the rule here. They probably all qualify as ODD, but that's not the main problem. Treating a child just for ODD is usually unhelpful and doesn't address the greater problem. I think the thumbsucking, the quirky faces she makes with her mouth, the defiance, the inflexibility, and doing things on her terms could be Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). Or it could be something else. But I'd want her tested for the whole nine yards and many of us here like neuropsychologist testing the best. They actually will test the child for everything possible and often they nail what other professionals miss because others do not test. She could have attentional deficits or learning disabilities as well, all of this causing her much frustration. There is rarely one diagnosis per child. One usually leads to another.

Of course, you also need to look for signs of schizophrenia, but, as much as I know being a layperson who reads about that stuff, doesn't sound like that's an issue right now. She would lose contact with reality if she had that, so I'd do the neuropsychologist.

Good luck, regardless of the path you take.

 

[Luvbooks7]

Hi everyone,

Wow y'all are so nice here! I went to childbrain and on a whim I took that ADHD quiz for my daughter. She fit that really really well.

As far as being evaluated, I don't really think she was, it was more monitoring for suicide.
We've been referred for counseling, Thusday is her first session. I requested individual and family counseling, although I don't know if my 7 year old son she go or not. I guess they will tell me.

I would like her to be diagnosed and treated for the "right" thing, whatever that may be. Today is one of those days where I feel like we're at the beginning of a long journey and I realize I need to learn how to deal with overwhelm, stress and confusion, both hers and mine since they don't teach classes on how to live this way, nor deal with it. I'm going to read, read read up on this stuff as much as I can.

It's great to know that others have come out the other side of this, and there is light at the end of the tunnel (smiling here).

Luvbooks/lisa

 

[Marguerite]

It's great to know that others have come out the other side of this, and there is light at the end of the tunnel (smiling here).

...and that the light at the end of the tunnel isn't always an oncoming train!

Marg