NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) vs Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) vs AS

[Steely]

IQ's are broken into verbal and non verbal. Non Verbal is performance, verbal is well, verbal oriented things. The discrepancy between the 2 IQs are what can classify a child as having a Learning Difference. Matt had a 20 point difference between verbal and performance, which means that his mind absorbed certain oral/verbal things at an astronomical rate, but if he had to put them on paper, of do it with his hands, he was more challenged. His combined score of verbal and nonverbal was still above average, which would put him as gifted, as you mentioned your difficult child is, but that does not matter when you are functioning in life. One Dr explained it to me like this - one part of your brain sees the Van Gogh painting in every ounce of detail it contains - but when the other part of your brain tries to duplicate it on paper, it can't. That sets up a HUGE frustration for these kids, because they can see it as a vision in their minds, but they can not perform it.

 

[HaoZi]

That sets up a HUGE frustration for these kids, because they can see it as a vision in their minds, but they can not perform it.

Also common gifted trait. I don't get why everyone isn't like that.

 

[BusynMember]

115 performance, however, is still way above average, even if it's not as high as his verbal IQ.

 

[DammitJanet]

Something was said earlier about eye contact...and now I cant remember who said it...lol. Billy was really bad at it when younger but now having worked in retail for almost 3 years he has become much better at it. I guess he has adjusted to it somehow. Maybe he just has enough practice.

Has anyone watched the show Parenthood? It shows a classic Aspie boy in that show. If you havent watched it, you should. They also have previous shows on NBC so you can catch the previous episodes. They really do a good job of portraying the disorder.

 

[SearchingForRainbows]

difficult child 2 has had just about every diag on the spectrum at one time or another. At two, he was diagnosed with autistic features/global developmental delay. Between 4-6 (foggy brain this morning, lol...), he was diagnosed as having Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)/global developmental delay. At the end of the eighth grade, he was diagnosed as having Asperger's, executive functioning issues, pragmatic language disorder and an anxiety disorder. These are his current diags. (One interesting thing is that his developmental pedi agreed with the other docs that he is an Aspie. However, if his testing score had been half a point lower, the developmental pedi would have given him a diag of Autism instead.)

I was confused because like everyone else, I always thought an Asperger's Diag meant that the child met certain developmental milestones on time. difficult child 2 was and still is (now almost 19) extremely delayed in self-care skills. He virtually has zero "people skills" but makes eye contact most of the time because of lots of instruction in this area. He still exhibits extremely "childish" behavior and has "melt-downs" if things don't go according to plan. He has major problems with executive functioning. difficult child 2 does well academically/is intelligent but not gifted as far as his IQ. He has the ability to remember what he reads no matter how dry the material is. He is constantly spitting out facts from text books, etc. He is fixated on primates and will bore you to tears talking about them if he has the chance.

in my humble opinion, as long as he is able to receive SSI and appropriate services, whether he is an Aspie or has Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), global developmental delay, etc... doesn't matter. I think the provider's personal views come into play when diagnosing our kids. It can be so confusing! SFR

 

[Steely]

115 performance, however, is still way above average, even if it's not as high as his verbal IQ.

True, and that is at first what the doctors said - he will be ok - because he is smart enough he can compensate - and to some extent he has, but in a lot of ways not. And the weird thing is, that each subsequent testing his IQ got lower and lower - isn't that weird? I blamed it on the AP medications which I know can affect mental cognitive stuff, but I never really will know if it is the medications, or something else.

But I think regardless of what the IQ number is, the point is that when you have discrepancies in your learning by 20 points or more, it sets up a daily battle inside your head of your brain functioning being rather lopsided? Or at least it did with Matt.

 

[Steely]

Just found this really, really helpful article by a Dr on this subject. If you search this online even all the experts disagree. Very confusing, and bit weird that we can't all get on the same page.
http://www.nldontheweb.org/nldadvancedreading/aspergersdisordernld.html

 

[ewith6and2]

My 13 yr old son had a 30 day evaluation and now they say he has Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified, and adjustment disorder with mixed disturbance of emotions and conduct. He had previously been diagnosed with Reactive Attachment disorder, ADHD combined, Oppositional Defiant, Dysgraphia. The thing is while researching the new stuff I came across the NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) information and seriously think this explains my son better than anything. I found a great web site that is loaded with information on NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) that you may be interested in, www.nldontheweb.org also a book I am reading that explains several different disorders and openned my eyes to what I think my son has KIDS IN THE SYNDROME MIX of ADHD, Learning Disability (LD), Asperger's, Tourette's, Bipolar, and More! by: Martin L. Kutscher MD. I am hoping to use both this book and the web site to question what is best for my son. Anyone know what diagnosis is best for getting help with school support?

 

[Steely]

Well, I think in terms of schooling the school districts recognize both, but Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) - not otherwise specified is more widely known. I have heard as well that a lot of doctors are beginning to lean away from NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) and use Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) as it seems to cover more spectrums. However, like you, my son never really fit the criteria for Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) - and fit all the criteria for NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD).

In order to actually get a true diagnosis of NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) he needs to have a whole battery of neuropsychologist tests. One of the biggest indicators is a discrepancy of more than 15 points between verbal IQ and performance IQ. In your 30 day evaluation, did the doctors do these types of tests?

 

[susiestar]

I think a lot of people, especially psychiatrists, have very little understanding of the very different ways that these disorders can present. We got lucky in that our first psychiatrist and then the dev pediatrician (certified as both a dev pediatrician and a child psychiatrist) both seemed to grasp that Aspergers was the right way to go with Wiz.

I know that usually adhd is listed as a separate diagnosis, but in reality it is more a symptom of a different diagnosis. I know for a LONG time it was listed as a possible symptom of Aspergers. The psychiatrist explained that it is listed separately as a diagnosis as a way to get ins co's to cough up $$ for treatment more easily.

Wiz had awesome eye contact - when it was his idea. That boy could stare down anyone, anytime and saw nothing wrong with trying to do so to make adults incredibly uncomfortable. the first psychiatrist we had thought it was quite interesting - and in his case the overuse and inappropriate eye contact was a symptom of his Aspergers. I think most of the docs expect no eye contact when actually it would be more accurate to list inappropriate eye contact as a symptom.

NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) is in the same category as dyslexia, dysgraphia, etc.... Wiz has it - and it causes big problems sometimes. Not so much now as he has learned to imitate what others are doing if he doesn't understand and feels the need to fit in. That need is RARE, and he is super contrary if ANYONE tries to push him into doing something. It is one thing that has kept him far away from drugs, in my opinion. I know some of his friends tried to push him to try it, and he refused partly because he knows it would hurt him in many ways and at least as much due to the fact that he won't do anything you try to push or bully him into doing. Just won't.

I would look to the DSM for guidelines to help you line out what is aspergers, Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified, and some of the literature out there as to what NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) is. in my opinion NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) is likely a symptom of many disorders, like Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified, aspergers, autism, but can also be a symptom of other things like Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS).

 

[keista]

I think most of the docs expect no eye contact when actually it would be more accurate to list inappropriate eye contact as a symptom.

in my opinion most symptoms of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) are misunderstood/misinterpreted. One of the more common ones is social interaction. Many on the spectrum are VERY social, and especially at young ages actively seek out social situations. The problem is that their social skills are INAPPROPRIATE. That is the key.

 

[Steely]

That is interesting Keista - I did not know that. Matt was and still does have the need to be incredibly social - but yet before 18 most situations were inappropriate. Now he will actually call me to ask me if doing xy or z is a good choice with a social situations. Where did you get that info by the way, was it in a specific book or article?

 

[pepperidge]

What does very inappropriate mean? I have a kid with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS)--definitely not on the spectrum I would think=--his behavior is inappropriate in part due to impulsiveness.

I read this thread with interest--reading it I would have no idea if my oldest child is on the spectrum or not (two different neuropsychs say not) but clearly has exec functioning, dycalulia, dysgraphia, low working memory, low processing, higher than average verbal IQ, very shy and anxiety ridden.

What difference does it all make in terms of interventions? Would schools do anything differently?

 

[keista]

Steely, I guess it's my own assessment, but in my opinion should be stated in that manner in the books and articles.

The criteria focus on "lack of social skills". And every Aspie and spectrum (and suspected spectrum) person I know LACKS appropriate social skills. HOWEVER not all of them are loners, and certainly not 100% of the time. My Dad actively invites ppl to his house. He sets them up with his home movies then goes and reads the newspaper. He actually seeks out social situations (parties, fundraisers, concerts, galas) but rare to see him in conversation. He's always behind a camera. Occasionally you'll see him chatting when the topic interests HIM. The second the topic changes, he goes off to hide behind the camera.

Son always sought out friends, but never seemed to play appropriately. At about 3rd grade, he'd invite friends over and instead of a simple hello, he'd stomp around the house like a dinosaur - for half an hour. Eventually I'd get him engaging with the friend HE invited over.

Boy we met this past summer WANTED to join in the Jr counselor program (for the kids 12 and over at a family camp). I don't know the details, but his parents told me it was a disaster. The counselors finally put him to good use running messages between the groups so he felt needed and helpful. On the second or third day son and he "found" each other and spent their afternoons together discussing computers while walking around the main building, REPEATEDLY. Hey, they got their exercise, but it looked 'odd' to those that don't have first hand knowledge of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD).

Susie's post about the eye contact is a perfect example. GENERALLY poor eye contact is a flag for Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). However, Wiz displayed inappropriate eye contact = poor/lack of social skills.

I think ppl on the spectrum eventually learn their limitations and then withdraw socially accordingly. That's not exactly how they want it, but it's better than the constant struggle to get the social stuff "right"

Pepperidge, lack of social skills is a symptom of several disorders, and yes it does make a difference as far as interventions go - just like with ODD. If two different neuropsychs say no, I'd be comfortable with that. However regardless of what's driving the lack of social skills, it should be addressed to each child's 'sociability desire' level. If they want to be computer programmers or novelists, not so important. If they want to be administrative assistants or realtors, then they have to put in the work on social appropriateness.

 

[InsaneCdn]

What difference does it all make in terms of interventions? Would schools do anything differently?

Now there's a loaded question!
Really... it depends on the school system, and the front-line staff you deal with.
If they are symptom-driven, and prepared to work with parents and others involved with the child (therapist, psychiatrist, Occupational Therapist (OT), etc.), then the diagnosis doesn't make any difference - except that the school needs "some" diagnosis to justify the services... but Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) vs. Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)? no diff in this scenario.
If they are diagnosis driven - then unless the dxes on your list match the dxes that they "know what to do with", you don't get anything... and what you DO get is not necessarily appropriate for this particular difficult child.

In my experience, the ratio is less than 1 symptom-driven school system to 9 that are diagnosis driven...
But even 5 years ago it was 99.9999% diagnosis driven - so, there is hope (somewhere).

 

[BusynMember]

My son's social skills are considerably better than they used to be. Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids can learn. His life skills are actually a bigger problem than his social skills, although he stilll probably seems "odd" to people he doesn't know. There is no doubt that something is different about him.

Sonic has learned to make eye contact, but he doesn't like to. During his last neuropsychologist evaluation, two months ago, the neuropsychologist asked him about his eye contact (he was doing it) and he explained that he hated doing it, but had learned how to do it. He said it makes him very uncomfortable.

 

[TerryJ2]

Great thread!
I've always thought of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) as the same things as Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), and knew that it presented in a myriad of ways. It would be great if doctors could just get on board.

 

[Steely]

I think ppl on the spectrum eventually learn their limitations and then withdraw socially accordingly. That's not exactly how they want it, but it's better than the constant struggle to get the social stuff "right"

This is what has happened with Matt. He has NOW become agoraphobic and agonizes over the right and proper thing to say to people. Whereas when he was little he was just out there, wagging his tongue any which way, and getting in trouble every 5 seconds.

The thing is that not ONE Dr every told me that he was AS, or Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) - they always separated out the 3 and were very clear that he had NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD). However, as times has gone on, and I myself have done more research, I realized that NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) is within the AS spectrum - and THAT would have been a whole other school experience. I could have gotten him an aide, and more social accommodations - as it was - no one really knew what NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD) was except how it affected his academics. They blamed his poor behavior on his bi-polar.


Sigh....I wish I could have done more....known more.

 

[seriously]

You might want to review the information in this thread of mine that discussed several other Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) diagnoses that are NOT autism spectrum.

http://www.conductdisorders.com/forum/f6/multiple-complex-developmental-disorder-41818/

 

[BusynMember]

According to our neuropsychologist, Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)/autism...same thing. But new stuff is popping up all the time and they are changing the definitions. I was also told that in the new DSM Aspergers, Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified and classical autism will all be listed under one label...Autistic Spectrum Disorder.