Observing 4 teenagers this past weekend....

[DaisyFace]

how much does the nature of our society fit into this?

Well, it's pretty hard to be strict about school, when teachers slide everybody through...

It's hard to be strict at home, when tdocs, counselors, relatives and neighbors are ready to give the child "one more chance"

And it's hard to be strict about illegal activity when the courts let everybody slide through with just a slap on the wrist--if that!

Yes! It IS society....but it is also parents who are not questioning why we are being so darn permissive about everything.

 

[Mom2oddson]

Yes! It IS society....but it is also parents who are not questioning why we are being so darn permissive about everything.

And even when you do question it... you seem to be the only one.

Tried multiple schools, both private and public, with difficult child-A trying to find just one that would hold him accountable. But I was always told that He's so sweet, charming...whatever...that it was only fair to give him a second, third, one zillionth chance.

I was the only person in the difficult children lives that ever held them accountable and I stood alone. Between the schools, mother in law, the courts, and even husband all being soft on the difficult children....it was hard to make a difference.

It doesn't help that too many people (mother in law & husband) worry about the childs feelings. difficult child-A tried that on me once saying that I didn't care about his feelings. I told him that God put me on this earth to make sure you grow up to be a decent human being, not to worry about how you are feeling. When you are 30 I'll worry about your feelings. Until then, I'm here to teach you how to behave. ..... didn't do me any good, except he never used the feelings line with me again. Unfortunately, it works on mother in law and husband.

Maybe that's another side of the coin, there is no united front for these kids. They can divide and conquer whether it's the school, the court, Mom and Dad or the grandparents/bio-parents/step-parents. Without all sides being on the same page, how is a kid to know where he should be.

At least with easy child, I lucked out, even if my parents didn't always agree with what I was doing, they supported me 100%. Considering easy child is just a stubborn as difficult child-A, I think the constant consistency in his life made the difference.

 

[donna723]

I don't know ... I think, in a way, I saw this coming.

My own "kids" are now 34 and 29 and I raised them very differently from what I've seen in the last 15 years or so. When mine were growing up I think I was a very loving and attentive parent, but also very firm and no-nonsense - they knew who was in charge and they knew it wasn't them! I was not their "friend", I was their "parent". I did my darndest to raise them to be responsible and respectful, to be polite and considerate of others. They got plenty of love and plenty of well deserved appreciation for their real accomplishments, but they did not grow up thinking that the sun rose and set on THEM! Of course, there were problems - everybody has problems, and at our house things were even more complicated because of an alcoholic father. But they both grew up to become very decent, kind, honest, hardworking adults that I am very proud of. And neither of them had the idea that the world owes them anything - just because they exist.

But somehow in the last several years the whole focus of raising children has shifted to building and protecting their self-esteem at all costs, glorifying them and heaping unearned praise on them to the point that they become obnoxious, disrespectful little dictators who think the planets revolve around THEM! They are "SPECIAL", not because of anything they have done or accomplished, but merely because they exist! Of course, not all parents are like this, but it seems to have become the accepted way to raise children now. Parents hover over their kids, showering them with lavish praise for the tiniest accomplishment, yelling "Good job!" and applauding every time the kid eats a bite of food or sits down in a chair without falling out of it! And you must not ever raise your voice or express displeasure when they do something they shouldn't - you might damage their precious "self-esteem" - they must feel good about themselves, no matter what. What these people don't realize is that when kids get that bad feeling about something they have done that they shouldn't, that's the beginnings of a conscience and that's a GOOD thing, but the parents don't allow that to happen! And it has carried over to the schools where the teachers are not really alowed to discipline any more and kids do whatever they want to because they know there are no consequences. And if they don't do the work and don't know the material, they are passed anyway because they don't want to damage their precious "self-esteem" and make them feel bad about themselves! Well, if they easily blew off their school work and didn't pass when they could have, they SHOULD feel bad about themselvesl! But there are no consequences for anything, no learning and growing from experiencing the consequences of the bad choices they have made. If you've ever seen groups of rude, obnoxious teenagers strutting through a mall, you know that a lack of self-esteem is definitely NOT their problem! Again, certainly not all of them, but a lot.

I once watched as an embarassed, well-meaning but clueless young mother tried to contend with her horrendous three year old son in a waiting room! He was running wild through the room, slinging magazines off the tables and being rude and obnoxious. She would catch up with him and talk to him in this sweet, soft tone, trying to reason with him and explain to him why he shouldn't do that ... then she would say to him "OK?" I cringed visibly when I heard that "OK?" She was leaving it up to him! And of course, since she gave him a choice, he chose to continue running and slinging magazines around the room! Then she'd chase him around the room again, talk to him in that soft, sweet tone, then said "OK?" Then he'd run off again! Very easy to see who was in charge here and it definitely wasn't her! She was almost in tears and really didn't know what else to do! I hate it when people say, "If that was MY kid... " but I wasn't the only one in that room who was gripping the chair to keep from taking that kid in hand! If one of mine had tried that at that age, first they would have been made to pick up all the magazines and fix the mess they made, then their little butts would have been put firmly in the chair and they would have been told that they would stay there until I told them they could get up! But maybe that's just me ...

 

[DaisyFace]

Donna--

You said it!!!

I sometimes catch the Dr Phil show...and he gives speeches about how any time you raise your voice to your child, it damages them forever. I get outraged when I hear that! My child runs wild through the house--throwing, smashing, hitting, kicking, and I need to make sure that I do not raise my voice????

Give me a break!

 

[timer lady]

Anyone care to discuss school store???? I bet not! It definitely is a carrot for children with some disorders; has never worked for kt & wm. They don't trust or care about the school store. That "earned" item becomes a piece of junk around the house(homes). wm makes it his "icon" for the day & loses complete interest in it.

I've stopped the therapeutic parenting ~ I no longer have that part of me left. It exhausts me beyond reason. Both kt & wm want to know why they haven't gotten a car on their 16th.... Both have been told that they must earn their first car & I told them how. AND wm must get his anger under control before I'll even consider signing a paper for a driver's license.

In the end, we've become a child centered world. I remember watching my parents; mom taught me all my life to take care of me, my marriage & then the children. Sometimes there's a shake up in that mix but to keep myself & my marriage at the forefront of home life. When the kids run the house it becomes like Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) children ~ they can do their best to parent themselves but it's always ugly.

 

[donna723]

Does anyone still watch Dr. Phil? Even I gave up on him!

You don't have to scream and cuss and threaten children, but a whole lot balances on the tone of your voice! You can talk to them very sternly, in a no-nonsense tone where they KNOW that you mean business, and it does work. But it only works if they know there will be consequences, and if they know you will follow through and that you're not just making empty threats. And you've got to be consistent.

I have an aunt who is now 88 years old, and I admire her so much! Sweetest lady in the world! They had six kids from about my age on down. Her husband was in the military and was gone a lot so she raised them alone much of the time. The three oldest, all boys, had a reputation for being hell-on-wheels and were always in to something. But she could literally stop them in their tracks, just by giving them "that look"! And heaven help them if she started counting! In extreme cases, she would raise one finger and quietly say, "That's ONE!" She very rarely got to "Two" and I don't think I ever heard her get all the way to "Three!" It worked for her because they knew it wasn't a bluff. They knew for sure that she would follow through and that there would be consequences, and that they wouldn't like those consequences one bit! There was absolutely no doubt who was in charge at their house! And because they knew she would come down hard on them, she very rarely had to, if that makes any sense! And they all grew up to be decent, responsible, well-educated adults whose self-esteem is just fine, thank you!

She's 88 now, spunky as ever, and her children range from their early 60's to late 40's, and she's helped to raise several of her grandchildren too. And the funny part is ... she can still do it! She can still stop them dead in their tracks, just by giving them "that look"!

 

[AnnieO]

My Mom always had the "look" down cold. And if my Dad yelled - since he never yelled - I ALWAYS listened.

...A while back we stopped letting teachers paddle the kids... Honestly, a paddling or a ruler across the knuckles never hurt anyone. To this day I'd rather have a spanking than a lecture.

 

[Mom2oddson]

I remember shortly after husband & I were married the 3 kids were getting out of control and I told them to get to their rooms. Didn't yell or anything. easy child yells, "Get out of my way! That's her 'I mean it' voice!" as he goes flying up to his room. Didn't know I had a "mean-it" voice until that day.

The really sad part is that kids do need that firm control. There is a part of them that wants it. They'd never admit it, but they do. If I run into my ex's niece she still says Hi Aunt W to me. She is always polite and respectful towards me. I think that has a lot to do with how things were when I watched her. She had very firm rules. Simple things like you can't get a new toy out until the old one is put away. She would fight about it for the first few minutes, but when I didn't give in, she'd go happily along with it. She had no rules with her parents or grandparents. It was only when I watched her that she had boundaries. And the saddest thing was that was when she seems the happiest and most content.

And I do believe that true self-esteem isn't given to anyone but discovered through personal growth and accomplishments. It's like the line from The Incredibles, "when everyone is special, then nobody will be special".

 

[trinityroyal]

easy child yells, "Get out of my way! That's her 'I mean it' voice!" as he goes flying up to his room. Didn't know I had a "mean-it" voice until that day.

The equivalent in my house is "mother eyes". In fact, husband got mother-eyes just yesterday from mother in law. He's 54 years old, and he went a bit hang-dog and said, "Yes, Mother."

She would fight about it for the first few minutes, but when I didn't give in, she'd go happily along with it. She had no rules with her parents or grandparents. It was only when I watched her that she had boundaries. And the saddest thing was that was when she seems the happiest and most content.

I think children need rules and boundaries. They are what tells children that we care enough about them to stop them from doing stupid stuff that will hurt them.

 

[susiestar]

I disagree completely about the ruler across the knuckles. A large part of the arthritis in my knuckles comes from that ruler administered during my 6 years of private school. Some of the teachers didn't wait for misbehavior. They used the ruler if your penmanship was messy, you gave a wrong answer, mispronounced a word when reading out loud, etc... It didn't damage my self esteem but it sure did damage my hands. I connected with some of the classmates from those years a while back. Every single one of us had problems with our hands that our docs said was at least partially from that ruler on the knuckles.

I think that having everyone win a ribbon or trophy for playing a sport is hogwash. Ditto for not using red pens, praising kids for just being, etc.... I think it HURTS their self esteem. Kids are not stupid. They know when they have worked for something and when they haven't. Giving them praise and awards for every little thing seems like it is telling them that they are not able to really accomplish something so they have to be praised for nothing or they would never get praise. Or they get so much praise they feel that they have to do everything right the first time or they will disappoint you. This leads to perfectionism that can be crippling and to many other problems.

I hope that sooner or later parents will stop being their kids' friends. Friends come and go, some people have hundreds of them in a lifetime. Parents are far fewer. You get 2, maybe a few more if step parents are added to the mix. in my opinion it is a far more special relationship than "friend", but it is hard work and a lot of the time you only know you are doing a good job if your kid is mad at you for not letting them do something or for making them do something.

I think the mutton-dressed-as-lamb fashion is also part of the problem. It is one more way that the boundaries get ignored or simply don't exist. Past generations could tell in a glance who the parent was and who the kid was. Regardless of the styles of the time, kids dressed one way and parents another. Now it is much harder to tell. I can remember the day I got my first pair of pantyhose. I also remember buying my first makeup. It was the summer between sixth and seventh grade. I bet many of you can remember firsts like that too. They were milestones, big deals that we knew happened because we were becoming more mature and were able to handle more responsibility.

Kids have very little reason to want to grow up. Grownups have to have jobs and pay their own way. Many kids are getting all the privileges of adulthood - adult clothes, makeup, alcoholic drinks, coffee, R rated movies, tvs in their rooms, cell phones, their own computers, etc... with very little or NO responsibilities accompanying them.

It is time for this societal trend where almost anything is accepted to swing back the other way. We don't have to go to Puritan standards, but there MUST be SOME standards and rules or societies collapse. Self esteem has gone down in each of the last several generations and we have become so worried about it that we have lost sight of the fact that people SHOULD feel bad about doing certain things. Any parent who wants to demand decent behavior from a child, or who wants to give a child consequences or punishment for bad behavior is told to "wipe the slate clean" and give the child another chance. Over and over and over. Regardless of the behavior, how dangerous it is, and how many people could or did get hurt by it.

 

[AnnieO]

I disagree completely about the ruler across the knuckles. A large part of the arthritis in my knuckles comes from that ruler administered during my 6 years of private school. Some of the teachers didn't wait for misbehavior. They used the ruler if your penmanship was messy, you gave a wrong answer, mispronounced a word when reading out loud, etc... It didn't damage my self esteem but it sure did damage my hands. I connected with some of the classmates from those years a while back. Every single one of us had problems with our hands that our docs said was at least partially from that ruler on the knuckles.

Well... OK. I don't have this issue - but that is because the ruler was very sparingly applied. Think I got it maybe 3 times in the 8 years I was in Catholic school. I was a pretty quiet kid, though. I think if any form of "discipline" is overused, it can create its own set of problems - be it physical, verbal or what have you.

 

[DammitJanet]

I will weigh in here. I dont have a problem with the little trophies for the young kids in sports. I was a team mom when my boys were in elementary school and they played 3 sports a year. They all got trophies for each sport at the end of the season. Not for winning the games but for sportsmanship. The one year that Jamie's team went to state he did get a different sort of trophy but thats not what Im talking about.

When the kids signed up each year, they paid $15 each. $5 went for equipment rental, $5 went for the pizza party and $5 went for the little trophy. I think Burger King, Pepsi or some car dealer provided shirts.

I dont think that damaged their self esteem. We refused to even allow score keeping until 3rd grade.

This thread reminds me of the old....it wasnt like this when I was a kid, we walked to school 3 miles in the snow uphill both ways. I think we always see the current generation as going to pot in a handbasket. Just remember what they said about Elvis!

 

[AnnieO]

$15?! Holy schmoly! Last year Jett's football STARTED at $120. Add in $15 for the team fund, $10 for the after-season party, $2 per person for each game (so at least $6 every weekend), snacks at least one practice and one game, food or drinks for US during the games (I brought coffee usually, LOL), spirit wear...

YEAH.

And all the kids get a trophy, but not for sportsmanship. They all say they're "MVP".

Whatever. I was kind of glad Jett didn't want to do it this year.

 

[graceupongrace]

Many kids are getting all the privileges of adulthood - adult clothes, makeup, alcoholic drinks, coffee, R rated movies, tvs in their rooms, cell phones, their own computers, etc... with very little or NO responsibilities accompanying them.

I saw a great term for this recently: "premature affluence."

 

[susiestar]

Premature affluence is one way to describe it. I think it goes deeper than that. I cannot count the number of parents who honestly believe that there is no reason a child should not be able to do all the things the parents can, at least at home. Many have said that they let their toddlers have coke or Mt Dew because the parents have it. That they cannot tell the child that something is for adults only. It covers not just food or drinks, but the entire way the child is raised. My kids have had friends who were allowed to do crazy things. One of Jessie's classmates used to brag about driving. At 10 years old! The parents said he was big enough to reach the petals and he wanted to, so they let him. Of course he ended up in a major wreck on their property. They were lucky that he was not on a main road. He did NOT stay on their property and they had no idea because they let him take a vehicle out anytime he wanted. This is from the PARENTS. Not from the kid bragging. The parents actually asked why they wouldn't, or shouldn't let him drive. They were allowed to, after all.

That is probably the most outrageous example, but there are myriad others I could name. I just cannot understand why kids should get everything adults get, or why some parents cannot say that something is for adults and the kids cannot have it until they are adults. it is a fairly pervasive attitude, at least where we live.

 

[graceupongrace]

Susie, I totally agree. "Premature affluence" describes the material part of the issue, but "premature privileges" are a huge problem. So many parents want to be friends, and not actual parents. They're unwilling and/or afraid to tell their child that something is not age-appropriate.

 

[DaisyFace]

I don't know whether it's "premature affluence"...

or whether some parents are just afraid to draw any kind of boundaries.

I remember listening to a group of parents commisserate about how it was so expensive having to buy their kids a certain sugary cereal...but what can you do? That's what they see on television - so they have to have it, ya know?

I was flabberghasted that these Moms were letting commercials dictate how they spend their grocery money...I said "You tell the kids NO - TV is not the boss of me."

The parents thought my approach was so novel. It had evidently never occurred to them that they did not have to follow what mass media said they should be buying/wearing/doing.

Ridiculous.

 

[AnnieO]

LOL - I found out something about sugary cereals.

I used to buy Cheerios or Kix for the kids. Then I realized the reason I never had any cereal was they were eating MINE. Bran flakes and granola type stuff with raisins and cranberries. It was FUNNY.

When we go shopping, I'll tell the kids "yes" or "no" based on my values. Then I send Onyxx out with my Mom... Once, she came back with a swim suit I would not wear in public (way too sexy for a then-13-y/o) and recently with short-shorts that show off her nether regions.

I'll NEVER let my mom take Onyxx shopping alone, again. She wouldn't let ME dress like that - why does she think my DAUGHTER should?

 

[susiestar]

Daisyface, I totally agree. It is so ridiculous to let tv rule your life. There are a LOT of people who think that if you see it on tv then you MUST do it, whether it is a commercial or a "reality" show or whatever. There are a LOT of people who think that if it is on tv it must be ok, and if the kids are going to fuss about it then you HAVE to let them do it or they will be "deprived" or made fun of at school. My whole family was upset that I flat out REFUSED to allow anything Power Ranger into my home. One aunt would NOT accept it (our kids are the same ages). HER son loved them and I was going to make my son "funny" if I didn't let him have them. Wiz not only would try those kicks on anyone when he got upset or told no, he also would have nightmares for a WEEK after watching a single episode. We did try it a few different times. Either watching the show or having a book or toy. We got the same results each time. I finally had to take my aunt out for coffee and explain that if she just HAD to give Wiz a power ranger math workbook (she thought that I "couldn't" refuse something educational) that would be okay. IF I could call her and she would come over every time he woke up with a nightmare. I told her to expect 2-3 calls a night the first 2-3 days, and 1-2 a night for the rest of a week. She could NOT backpedal any faster on that if I had set her feet on fire!! After that the rest of the family backed off. They all KNEW that I would call them every single time he had a nightmare. I must admit that the shock on her face when I told her I would call her was really funny. She never knows how to take it when I say yes with a condition like that. It is so much more fun than saying no. (I am a bad niece. NOT going to the corner either. nyah nyah nyah!)

Step, your mom is the Grandma. A grandparent's job is to say yes and make the kid smile. Even when the item makes Mom want to scream. If need be, make sure the item gets mysteriously torn in the washer, or that the dog plays tug of war with it (if she won't hurt the dog, of course). It can be a lot easier than just forbidding her to wear it or wrestling it away from her. Just don't ever admit that you wrecked it on purpose.

 

[AnnieO]

Susie. I agree there except for ONE THING. This is the same woman that had repeatedly asked me why I "let" my daughter dress that way. (!)

Trust me, LOTS of inappropriate stuff has mysteriously VANISHED or been destroyed. Our washer's hard on cheap nasty clothing... LOL