Oh Man This Really Hovers

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by Hound dog, Aug 19, 2010.

  1. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Nichole mailed K and informed her that mother in law passed. We had no idea actually if she'd even get the email as contact with her now is sparce. I also wrote her a brief note.

    I didn't expect the response that she sent. :(

    She was of course very saddened by mother in law's passing. She was the only real grandmother she had, although my Mom did her best to fill the role too whenever she was around K. And let's face it, if Norman Rockwell were to paint the perfect grandmother.......I think he'd have chosen mother in law.:D

    Unfortunately their situation has not improved. Now I don't know whether they're in East St. Louis or West St. Louis, so I don't even know if they're in Illinois or Mo. And honestly, I don't think K does either. Enormous city and she's use to a fairly small one. They're still in the homeless shelter........and I'm gathering from what she's telling me and from what she's not telling me that it's not the world's greatest place to stay, yet it's off the street and she's stuck it out.

    First I need to put in here that 10 yrs ago when I brought K here I'd more or less talked her into it......sometimes I still wonder if I'd unintentionally pushed her into it.....or made her feel like she was being pushed into it. But she had never actually asked to come. I'd offered yet again and she'd accepted. And I don't really know if her husband had a hand in that or not. He could've been pushing her hard to come here to get himself out of the hotseat.........or not.......who knows.

    Not once in all the time we've talked again has she asked me for a thing, except to stay in touch. She did ask if there were any jobs in the area.......and I told her the truth, they're as hard to find here as they are there. Maybe more so as ohio is pretty bad off right now. Sometimes the way she'd word things made me wonder if she was hinting.......but she never once asked.

    Well, that has changed, sort of. This last mail she is clearly miserable, lost, and afraid. She said I hadn't been hearing from her because her husband had pawned his laptop so the kids could eat. She had gone to the library to mail me. She said he's doing odd jobs for the shelter to earn bus fair to look for jobs. Then she added that it's the first mature thing he's ever done. But added that it was too late. At the shelter they're not allowed to be together. She's gotten used to him not being around. She said when they do see each other he makes the extra effort to be affectionate but it doesn't meant anything to her, doesn't make any difference. She said the shelter has made her grow up..........and I got the impression she is looking at him differently these days.

    The shelter they're staying at is being closed for not having a proper license or somesuch. All the other shelters are full. It means back on the street for K and the kids who are just starting school there.

    At the end she said she wanted to be with her family, that she missed us all so terribly. She wanted to come back and earn our trust back and restore our faith in her.

    And as much as I've worked hard at hardening my heart against her...........that got to me.:(

    I have always believed that most people deserve a second chance. If it were easy child or Nichole I'd move heaven and earth to find a way to get them home to help them.

    I'm really torn about this tonight. That doesn't mean I'm going to do anything rash. I'm not the same person I was 11 yrs ago. But I'd be lying if I didn't admit that it's got my Mommy heart hurting.

    K messed up big time all those years ago. But honestly, does that mean she has to pay for it the rest of her life?

    And yet I have no clue how I could help her even if I wanted to. They can't come here, we've neither the room nor the money. We are seriously barely scraping by ourselves. I don't think I can even afford to send her money........even 20 bucks right now.

    She didn't ask to come here, she asked to come to a nearby shelter. But all the shelters here have been over full for months. Even the churches are overwhelmed. Our food pantries are bare.....they're volunteers have taken to standing outside of the grocery stores begging for donations. It's really sad.

    If she could come to a nearby shelter........I might be able to make sure the kids had food in their stomachs. Growing up poor teaches you to make huge meals that cost basically nothing. But she'd still be on her own as far as finding an apartment, job, and the like. I don't even think many of the services she had used last time still exist due to the state being so overwhelmed.

    There are moments when I really hate being the mother to grown children. I have been where K is now. And it hovers major. I have felt that totally alone in the world, the hopelessness of it ever getting better of anyone even giving a d*mn if it did or not. Ever had instant mashed potato soup? My kids had it 4 days straight while staying in a shelter. It was the only thing they had left after having been over crowded for an extended period of time. And yeah, a decision I made at the time is what put us in that position. My Mom "helped" from a distance, sort of......and in the end wound up renting her house to me because there was no where I could afford to rent in a half way safe neighborhood. Major growing up period in my life, and not so fond memories either.

    I can't just bring K here and "fix" it for her. Nor would I try. Even if she did come here it would have to be to a shelter. As a family we would be her support system. That's about it. Help the way we help each other, but she'd be on her own for the rest.

    I did just show the mail to Nichole. Her gut reaction was to go get K and the kids immediately. But she also realizes we can't just do that. So instead she's asking an ex teacher of hers who is a pastor and big on helping in town ect if he has any ideas.

    For all that K has done..............she has never before asked for help, asked to be with the family. She hasn't asked to live with us, hasn't asked for money, she just wants to be near us.

    I think perhaps K has reached her rock bottom.

    I haven't answered her because I'm not sure what to answer her. Her hopelessness and utter despair jumps out at me in the email. I don't want to give her false hope. But this is especially hard for me because I've been where she is and I know exactly what it feels like.

    So we'll do some checking and not say anything. Doesn't hurt to ask around. Odds are we won't be able to do a thing. But Nichole is already onto the fast track of locating nearby shelters....

    Don't know where this is going........don't even know if it's going to go anywhere. Just sort of using this as a way to sort my thoughts and maybe get some feedback.
  2. donna723

    donna723 Well-Known Member

    I don't know if you've ever been to St. Louis but if you're right downtown, neither side of the river is very nice. If you're east of the river in East St. Louis, you're in Illinois, and that is NOT the place where you would be wanting to live or be looking for a job, especially with kids! At one time it had the highest crime rate in the whole country! I don't know if it still does but definitely not a nice place to be. On the Missouri side, right downtown on the riverfront where the ball park and the touristy things like the Arch are is OK (during the daytime) but if you venture a few blocks away, you're really asking for it. Of course, nobody lives right downtown except for a few very expensive "loft-type" condo buildings. The suburban areas are some better but St. Louis is a HUGE, very busy, very confusing place to be, especially if you're not used to it. Not exactly a good place to be if you have no resources and no family there.

    If she stays there, the only thing I could suggest is possibly the Catholic Church. The Church is still a very large presence in St. Louis and I know that the Catholic Social Services is very active - not sure if they have shelters but I think they do, at least they used to.
  3. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Yeah, Donna I've been to St Louis. It impresses me about as much as Cincinnati does........which is not at all. The inner city is not really a place to live, on either side of the river. I tried to tell K that.....but I think her husband was filling her head with ideas of what a golden opportunity it was.........and yeah. When you're desperate, or think you're desperate, you don't always think clearly.

    I do realize that this could just be a ploy for her to get here and mooch. She could be playing me for a svcker. But while I'm keeping that in mind, I don't think so. So many times she had the opportunity to come straight out and ask, and never did. This is also not the 1st email where she has strongly hinted she is fed up with her husband. I've gotten the sense over the past 2 yrs that she feels trapped by both him and the situation he's kept her in.

    I'm still trying to think of how to word my response. The best senerio is that she'd leave perv behind and start a new life with her family to support her. If we could arrange for them to come to a shelter here to start over, I'm not fool enough to tell her to leave him behind. I hope that she would, for both herself and the kid's sake, but that is a decision she alone has to make.

    IF our shelter has an opening they would find her both housing and a job. Housing wouldn't be much of an issue.....we have HUD funded apartments right in town. BUT she has to work in order to live in them, period. Nichole had a friend at the factory she worked at that had come to our shelter from Ky because she'd just finished rehab and was trying to start a new life so she could get her daughter back. The shelter did take her, helped her get the job and set her up with a place to live.

    Like I said......at this point, I don't know what will happen. I know I'm not jumping off the deep end without looking into all the alternatives first.

    And right now I'm waiting for my Mom and sis to arrive for my graduation. I'm sitting here with a huge gaping hole in the front of my mouth because a cap came off of my front tooth. Finally found a superb dentist who would take me, but the tooth is in such bad shape he said it would make it worse to attempt to re-cap it. I have an appointment with him next week to start getting my teeth fixed. He will take payments that we can afford. My mouth is an utter disaster area thanks to no inusrance and no money. This guy is a godsend, literally. He gives you no BS and searches for the least expensive way to treat you. No wonder his waiting room is overflowing. In the meantime though, I look like Hillbilly Sally. UGH!!!! Won't be any big smiles in my grad pics for sure!

    Yep definitely no extra money to attempt to support K and 3 kids. But maybe we can at least find a way to bring her closer to her family and give her a real support system.
  4. CrazyinVA

    CrazyinVA Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I can certainly understand both your urge to help, and your hesitancy. The fact she hasn't asked for help says a lot, I think. She sounds resigned to her situation, but pretty depressed (who wouldn't be?) I don't think it hurts for you to make some inquiries. I think being near you might not be a bad thing, as long as the boundaries are still in place.. it sounds like you know what your boundaries are and can stick to them. Take some time to mull it over.
  5. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Yeah. I'm still investigating and thinking at this point. Just getting her and the kids here would be a hurdle unto it's self. Those boundaries would stay firmly in place. Because they are the same boundaries that her sibs live by. I help them help themselves, I don't "fix" their problems. I won't have issues sticking to them despite my wanting to swoop in and rescue them. Because I know that doesn't really help someone at all, especially a difficult child.

    I finally responded to her. I told her I needed to know what she's thinking/hoping/wanting for her future. Told her I needed to know what she thinks would happen once she made it here because odds are it wouldn't be any better (except less dangerous) than where she is now........other than family would be nearby to support her. I told her we're looking into what services/shelters are available, but I don't want her to get her hopes up until we start getting some information. Made it clear she would not be moving in with family.......did it in a nice way by simply being honest that none of us can afford to do it nor do we have the room.

    There is not much else I can do for her. Just have to hope she has hit rock bottom and is ready to claw her way out and back up to the top. Did tell her it was going to be rough for awhile and hard work. Guess time will tell if she's really ready or not.
  6. Fran

    Fran Former desparate mom

    I think getting on your own feet with a job that you worked so hard to get will be an example to K that there are choices that can help her family. Finding services for her is a good thing then leave it in her court. She can make arrangements for herself and ask for suggestions. I know she is probably buried in depression and desolation. Holding out a hand for her to find her way is a good thing but she must reach out to get that hand by making some choices and doing something. "Do to Get".

    You have to consider that if she does come because your family have helped her, what will you do? If she couldn't find services, has no money for food, rent or anything in St. Louis, I doubt she will find them in your little area. What will happen then? It's well and good to help her but you have to project forward to the worst case scenario so you aren't surprised when you wake up and you have the responsibility of feeding and housing another family. You will be hard at work in the hospital and K will be in your house on your computer watching the children. She hasn't really shown an industrious attitude towards getting her kids food and shelter. Everyone goes through a tough time where they are scrounging but most people are so horrified that they make sure it doesn't happen again. You haven't really seen that with K.

    I'm a big believer that family helps family and that charity starts at home but I make sure I am prepared for the consequences of taking on that sort of burden. I have done it and I know it takes some supreme wisdom to not feel overwhelmed or resentful with the added responsibility after the honeymoon phase. Nicole is anxious to save her but she still is working on herself. Hopefully, there will be services for K and her children can have a life that doesn't include hunger, instability and moving from school to school.
  7. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I kind of agree with Fran. I would be overwhelmed with the need to swoop in and rescue them - especially the kids, but probably the best thing to do is find out what services you can put together to help her out instead of being her services. That would be really hard on me but is the best thing. I always jump first and think later. LOL. You are smarter than me.

    The fact that she can get HUD housing is really good. Other places the waiting lists are huge and long. They just had a thing on the news where over 30,000 people turned out for 1500 apartments which could open in the next year and a half in Atlanta! They expected 10,000 max but people started camping out a week in advance.
  8. donna723

    donna723 Well-Known Member

    So, her idea is that if she comes to your area, it will be WITHOUT the husband? Making a break from him and getting a fresh start would be the best thing that could happen to them all. But you have to think too, what would happen if she moves to your town, gets all settled, services in place, a job and a place to live ... and then HE shows up? It could happen! Is there any possibility that the "plan" is for her to get established in your area and then have him join them? Just trying to cover all the bases.

    If I were you, how much I would be willing to help would depend on whether or not he was part of the deal.
  9. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Well, one good thing about no longer being the person I was all those years ago.......I can be blunt with K these days.

    It's not up to me whether she stays with her husband or not. That alone has to be her decision. That was the mistake I made the last time and I won't repeat it. It would only backfire anyway.

    Fran, she surprised me for a 2nd time. I asked her to be completely honest, that I needed to know what she was thinking/feeling what she wanted/hoped for her future. Because I can't read her mind and I'm not there to judge the situation, her behavior/body language, all the tell tale clues.

    She's fed up. She doesn't want to come live with family to put more strain on us. She just misses us and wants moral support and to stop feeling like she's completely alone in the world. All she's really asked for is if I would call around and see if one of the shelters in the area would hold a spot for them if they could get here. If the program that helped her get her GED was still available to help her husband get his. She doesn't expect us to fix the problem, doesn't really expect it to be much better than where she's is at except that she'll be near people who love and care about her and the kids.

    And she did come out swinging in this last mail. She wants to go back to school and she doesn't care if she has to work fulltime while she does it. She is fed up with just barely surviving and wants to try to give her kids the life they deserve to have.

    Well there was more to it.........but it's been a long day and I'm exhausted. lol But she finally sounded like the K who used to spend her summers with us before she met the man who altered the course of her life. She is not ready to give up on her husband because this situation has him finally acting like a man. She doesn't know if it will last, but she's not ready to give up just yet. So be it, like I said, not my decision. I don't have to live with the man, she does.

    If she comes here she will go into a shelter. She will be near the family who love her and will support her and attempt to help her in small ways that can make life more tolerable, but not to the point that she doesn't have to do to get. That much I can do for her. I would do it for any of my other kids. The rest is up to her and if he comes with her, her husband. She will have to make her own way here. husband and I can't afford to go get them.......and we don't have vehicles that would even survive the trip. Same for Nichole. And easy child just plain would not do it with the new baby coming ect.

    I don't hesitate to help someone who is trying to help themselves, but I don't do squat for someone who isn't. If she thinks I'm just singling her out, her sibs will set her straight. lol Because I do the same with them.

    Her migraines won't gain her much sympathy around here. I don't mean to sound callous as I know first hand how horrid they are......but there are times when you just go on anyway because you simply don't have a choice. She is going to have to work. He is going to have to work. It's not going to be easy, and I've made clear.

    It sounds as if she's reached a turning point. If I attempt to make things easy........she's going to slide right back into the groove she's been riding in all these years and she will never change. If she wants it, she's going to have to work hard to get it.

    We're making calls and gathering some information, which is all she's asked us to do. At 30 years old........that desire to swoop in and rescue isn't very strong. I just have to keep reminding myself she is 30, soon to be 31. lol And I'll be fine.:tongue:

    We can do that much, then the ball is in her court and we'll see how serious she is. I've decided if I have no expectations then there is no reason to be disappointed.

    Maybe I have finally passed detachment 101?? lol
  10. Fran

    Fran Former desparate mom

    Excellent. Sounds like a good plan.
  11. CrazyinVA

    CrazyinVA Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I agree. This all sounds logical, and loving, to me. Yup I think you've graduated to Detachment 201 :)
  12. Shari

    Shari IsItFridayYet?

    There's a possibility I will be coming to Ohio in October, and I have to go thru St Louis to do it...
  13. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911


    You ....are a huge heart wrapped in a warm electric blanket, topped off with - if I ever hit the lottery I will save the entire world and keep nothing for myself except maybe a new car, and a little (xx) for me. yeah I know you. So let me read between the lines here Grandchildren or not.

    Do I think this girl has matured any? Personally? No. Do I think she's hit rock bottom? Nope. Do I (standing on the sidelines) having been completely homeless, without ANYONE to give me a single thing, slept in a stolen van, with a child, no job, and no food wondered how in the world I got like this and ate NOTHING while I gave what I did get to Dude? yes. Potato flake soup would have been fantastic. 4 days in a row of nothing makes you dumber than dirt. Did I call my Mom and tell her how bad it was? NEVER. Did I call her and say "I dont' need a hand out, I just.........and fill in my sad little story?" NEVER! Why? Because I got myself INTO it, WITH my son, I would get myself OUT of it WITH my son. My Mother was well aware of my circumstances TWELVE YEARS AFTER - NOT ONCE would I ever care for her, love her, respect her - and call her or write her and worry her about my messed up life.

    When my life was like your K's? I made calls home and I was WONDERFUL. LIFE WAS GREAT.......and then I bit my lip, got off the phone and cried my eyes out. THAT is what being adult to me is. THAT is what caring about YOU (to me) would be. Not this little game of - we had to sell our lap top to eat. We had to do this to that....The litlle carrots she dangles in front of you about how she isn't allowed to be with him in the shelter. Well - she's apparently with him period because she COULD go to a womans Domestic Violence shelter - get the kids help, a bed, and herself straightened out - but no-----------she CHOOSES to stay WITH HIM. Even if ........IF they are separated. Okay so that takes time to see - but you can bet your sweet eared corn that if you allow her to come ANYWHERE near you ----------IT WILL turn your life upside down, he WILL follow her, there WILL be excuses just like there are now.......and this WILL ABSOLUTELY MOST ASSUREDLY be the SAME EXACT SCENARIO only in a town near you or IN YOUR HOUSE because NOW you've invited them there. And the kids......oh look - Grandma is close as XXX........here grandma uproot your life, stop your job, come get these kids now we're fighting again, or I'm going back to him or HE NEEDS ME -------or even better I need him can you keep the kids. There WILL BE some B.S. excuse - and you're going to get to raise two more kids.

    My thought is simple - If you want to raise those kids? Do it. Tell them to put them on a bus - and go get them. Ask for guardianship papers - and raise their kids. But the BS that THESE two are going to bring? Tell them to STAY where they are and keep the BS with them.

    I'm not sorry for them - they had a choice, make it every day and every single time K is in the picture your life is a whirling dirvish of WHAT SHOULD I DO. It's like me with Should Dude move back home? UGH. I feel for you I do. But I swear - this time I've just got to be the friend that says NO. Not this time. Tell her - nope. You aint buying it. I mean what was it last time - She was dying from some rare disease? And now?

    She's methodical I'll give her that - her plan is just a 3 or 4 year plan - not like most difficult child's that act instant. She's a real plotter.

    Hugs - I'm sorry for the kids but that's all, because I've been where she is - and I would have NEVER done to you what she has.
  14. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    Star has some good points. With the grandkids closer you will be more likely to take any amt of money that you do have to spend it on shoes for them, etc... So will N and even easy child will, thinking that her kids will be able to use them secondhand, or to give them her kids' clothes when they are outgrown, rather than putting them in a garage sale or consignment store.

    K and her man were able to get bus fare to a place much closer to you, knowing they had no prospects and they both had to know that there are few jobs in any area, esp cities where so many are out of work. K and her man are NOT that naive that they really believed that any part of St Louis was the land of milk and honey and opportunity and easy jobs. St Louis was likely chosen because it is close enough to K's family that the family might bring them "home" where they had an easier target to try to mooch off of. I have been pondering this for quite a while, and Star posted the thoughts that kept occuring to me.

    Maybe if K shows much clearer signs of trying to care for herself and her family, like going to a DV place if she is truly over her husband and getting help so that she doesn't choose another guy just like him, and shows these signs for qutie a while, it would seem like a better idea to help them get closer to you. I don't fully agree with what Star says about lying to your parents when your family has no food, but I do think K has shown very few signs of really wanting to change and of taking steps to make a better life.

    So far it seems that her plans are to wait until you/your family brings her closer and then start to do more to make a better life. This would be a far easier choice for you if she was showing any REAL progress toward a better life other than just letting you know how she misses family "support" and wants to go to school if only she lived closer.

    I don't remember much about when she left you, other than hearing about it later, but those warnings in the back of your head, and in your gut, that make this such a hard decision, are warnings you NEED to heed. It is very interesting that her "breakthrough" of wanting to leave the guy behind and of wanting to "go to school" and "build a better life" are coming just as you are about to graduate school and start your career as an LPN. It is just WAAAAAYYYYY to convenient, in my humble opinion.

    Whatever you choose, you have my support, but I wanted to throw this out there.

    in my humble opinion if she really wants to be near family she will find a way to EARN the money doing some kind of work. Until then, maybe she needs to stay there a while longer.

    You aren't moving anytime soon, after all.
  15. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Starbie and Susie........I love you both!! :D

    And yeah, I've thought about all those things for weeks and weeks now. Yes.....I've been taking this very slowly. I know there is a high chance K has not reached her rock bottom and is attempting to play me. Star you and I are very very much alike. My Mom still doesn't have a clue of 99 percent of what I've gone through in 27 yrs. mother in law only partially did because she always took us in when we were homeless....but even she didn't know much until I dug my feet in and said ENOUGH. Is K to that point....most likely not since she is still at the "he needs another chance" stage.

    I know K probably better than she knows herself........I've lived with her Dad for nearly 3 decades. She will come here invited or not. I knew I'd be facing this eventually since the first contact. And off and on for the past 2 yrs I've been thinking about how I would handle it. If it is possible to arrange for a shelter, she won't park on my doorstep, or her sibs doorstep with 3 wide eyed kids in tow. I have had both girls seriously thinking about boundaries when it comes to K and the kids. Been having long talks with Nichole about how we would have to be very careful not to over help as it would not give her motivation to change. I've made it clear that should she and the kids come we will only do the little things we do for each other that make life with family what it is. Honestly, I don't see it being an issue on the over helping part. Both girls have good boundaries set up with each other.....no borrowing money ect. I don't doubt it will be the same with K. They've both had to work hard, and both have had to go without.......they're not going to be svckers for the sympathy card any more than I am.

    I've thought long and hard about the pros and cons. And honestly I have no expectations of K suddenly turning her life around. If she did that would be wonderful.......but I'll believe it when I see it. Pros are that she would have the opportunity to change with encouragement from us.......along with seeing how her younger sibs are fairing compared to her....who knows maybe that will be motivation. (one can hope lol), grandkids would be close so would be easier to make their lives somewhat more pleasant.......as well as give them good examples to follow as role models. And really that's about it because the rest would be up to K. Other than I know this county and town and can direct her to soup kitchens and free meals at churches ect.....so they won't go hungry.

    I understand totally what you're saying Star. And I love you for saying it. And you may be right and I may be doing exactly what you've done with Dude in the past. But K got 1 chance with me and she blew it. One. Not the over and over thing. Maybe she'll do it again. Actually she probably will. But everyone should get a 2nd chance....especially from family. What she does with that chance is completely up to her. The ball will be in her court.

    I'm not really sure if I can explain it so others really understand, especially since many see her as just a step daughter so why should I care so much.....But in this situation I also have to do the Right thing for Me. So I'm following my heart trusting it to tell me what the right thing is while trusting my head to make sure I'm doing it the right way. My culture raised me that family comes first above all else. No excuses. You simply do not ignore a family member in need. Now K stuck with a loser husband in a crummy motel room with no jobs, no money, no whatever.....she had a roof over head and food. I could deal with it......did not like it, but I could handle it. The basics were taken care of. But homeless and hungry I can't. It goes against everything I believe in, everything I was taught. And I can't live with just trying to ignore it......not unless you want to see me in a deep depression in a month or so. Not to mention it goes against everything I've spent a lifetime teaching my kids.

    So I can do what I can live with. I can ask a shelter if they can hold spots for them. I can offer an occasional meal if I'm making one of mine that can feed an army. (cuz I just can't seem to make it just for 3 people anyway) I can pick up the occasional item at yard sales for the grands just like I do anyway. I don't babysit......or only rarely and when I want to. I don't loan money, don't help with bills, don't help find places to live or jobs, don't give rides unless it's no skin off my nose to do so either with gas or time, I don't do Drama, I don't do rescue the kids. (hahaha experience with Nichole put an end to that sort of thing forever), your relationship with your partner is whatever you make of it.....you live with them not me.

    Honestly, other than the shelter thing......would not be doing one thing for K and her kids that I don't do for the others. But the little things I do do.........well I can't do with her and the kids so far away. And even though they are little things most people take for granted.....they make life more pleasant and tolerable even when you're down and out.

    Funny thing about this.......I have wised up tons in 10 yrs. And after spending the past 4 yrs in school working my fanny off to be a nurse.........Phhht, no excuses about NOT going to school, NOT having a job, oh but I have kids, what about babysitters, I don't have a car is gonna gain an ounce of empathy/sympathy from me. If she wants it, she's gonna have to work her tail off to get it just like everyone else and I've already told her so. If she doesn't.......then it's her problem to deal with. I worked my fanny off for MY career and the job and money I will have........and it wasn't to support her family of 5. Big difference between helping and handicapping.

    So because I am who I am, I can give her a 2nd chance even when I don't expect anything. I can be a mother and a grandmother and still expect her to behave like a responsible adult and let her deal with it if she doesn't. That I can live with. That is how I was raised.

    All that said.......and gee didn't mean for it to be so long lol.....I've called shelters.....and do these people yak on the phone all day or let residents use the phone? I get a busy signal 9 times out of 10 and that 10th time no one picks up. :tongue: So I'll get up early tomorrow (have slept in since no school) and see if I can catch someone that way. K has not said anything but I suspect they are no longer in the shelter there. She has my number with instructions on how to make a collect call without it costing me anything. (Travis and I have this down to a fine art) If she was in a shelter, I'd imagine she'd have called already. As it is she's still using the library and their computer.

    I'm doing what I can to help give her that 2nd chance........but not sweating over it. Not like I'm hovered over the phone all day hoping someone will pick up. I know our shelters are busy and full. She may have a while to wait. There are still opportunities here if she chooses to take advantage of them, not as many as their were 10 yrs ago, but enough to get her a place to live, a job ect. So well see. Like I said, no expectations. Just offering her a helping hand, it's up to her what she is going to do with it.