Paint It Black

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by katya02, Sep 24, 2008.

  1. katya02

    katya02 Solace

    I found out today that difficult child has lied about us in every way to his counselor at the outpatient rehab program. In every way. I am so angry I can't feel. I'm numb.

    I dropped in to chat with one of the counselors while difficult child was in his private appointment and I was waiting for him (as usual). The counselor wondered about our contract, was a little concerned, but, she said, after all it's not harsher than lots of contracts she's had with patients ... HUH?

    Turns out difficult child brought in his copy of the contract today (obviously he didn't rip it up) and told both counselors that it's in force, we've taken all his money, and since he lost his job Monday he's two weeks away from homelessness. This after our emotional conversation on Monday where we ripped up our contract, caved on everything, told him we forgave his debt (more than $6000), told him not to worry about being kicked out, not to feel on edge anymore, just to go forward from here, save his money, and look to the future ...

    Turns out he's lied about everything. He's painted us as monsters who constantly pick screaming fights and threaten to kick him out, and himself as 'not an angry guy'. Everything is our fault. He's omitted to mention any of his history of violence, including his most recent episodes.

    On the way home (I didn't know all this yet; I called his counselor later) he opened his folder to show me info about a local resource for housing, jobs etc. for people with mental illness issues. He told me he looked into this three weeks ago. I said, 'good for you. It's good to know what's available locally. And why do you have your contract? Did you show the counselor?' He said yes. I said, 'You DID tell her we ripped it up, right?' He said, yeah.


    Then he told me we need to KNOW how much psychological trauma this contract has put him through! I said, we ripped it up and forgave you the debt! I don't understand. He said he's been under constant threat of being kicked out since he came home in May. Oh, yeah! All that love and encouragement, hugs and kisses and everything positive, so that our other kids were disgusted and angry that he did drugs, got arrested, costs us thousands, and then they can't even tell him what they think of him .... oh yeah, those threats of being kicked out. Riiigghhtt.

    Then he tells me he's been threatened with being kicked out since he was 9, that he's the only one drugged and hospitalized and beaten with a belt .... HOLD ON. No threats, until he was 13 and seriously physically abusive to me and daughter, and Residential Treatment Center (RTC) was mentioned; no hospitalizations until he tried to kill his brother; no beatings, though he reported us for abuse and we went through an investigation after which they said, we have no problem, sorry, guess he lied. But no, I wasn't there when he was being beaten. Funny, I gave up my career and spent 24/7 with my kids for 22 years, but I wasn't there. Yeah.

    He says, if you kick me out I'll never speak to you again! Ever! I say, well that's your decision kiddo, not from us. And he escalates all the way home, until he's screaming by the time we get into the garage. He disappears to his room screaming 'You never take responsibility!!!'. Right. He also wants me to apologize. For what? I ask. For rescuing you when you were coked out? For driving you to work at 5 am? For buying you new clothes and driving you to job interviews all summer? For just what?

    I have to go get daughter from dance and I call the counselor on the way, and she fills me in. She knew nothing of his violence, nothing of his history. This is supposed to be addiction counseling so I didn't give her all his old records, which I normally do. All she knew was that we're monsters and he's going to be homeless. Trouble is, she told me enough that she violated HIPAA big time and she begged me to not tell husband anything because difficult child will be able to come after her (if husband gets angry enough, as he would, to confront difficult child). So I'm freaking out with anger and at the same time totally numb, and I'm DONE DONE DONE MY SON IS A PSYCHOPATH and I don't know how I'm going to conceal this state of mind from husband when he gets home any minute but I don't want difficult child to have ammunition to go after the counselors.

    He's a psychopath. He came upstairs (his bedroom is in the basement, a 2700 sqft apartment with door to outside, huge windows, kitchen, rec room with 60" TV and pool table, semiprivate bath - one other bedroom - the little ingrate!!!) and wanted a hug. A hug!! I looked at him and felt like I was looking at Ted Bundy. Then I couldn't look at him anymore.

    I can't tell husband yet. Counselors want a 'family meeting' to 'get everyone on the same page', ie cover their ***** for HIPAA, like that's going to happen. difficult child will never agree, why would he?

    husband is home. Don't even know what game face to try to put on.
  2. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    Sadly, lying to therapists is nothing new to many of our kids. Mine lied to the point that her therapist had to call CPS on me. It was a year of misery getting that mess sorted out. Strangely, I didn't take it personally. She didn't lie to make me look bad. She lied to make herself look good. The bigger problem came about in that she lied about it so much she began to believe the lies and does believe them to this day. Had I done half of what she said I had, she would either be dead or I'd be in prison. Many of the things she claimed then she still insists happened. I've given up denying I did those things and just change the subject.

    In this instance, I think your son did it much like my daughter did -- it makes him look strong, a hero and a victim. Nothing is his fault. It is all because his parents are so cruel. If he's like my child, part of him truly believes that you've been trying to kick him out since he was 9.

    It is painful when our kids think the worst of us. It hurts when these thoughts are based on lies. It becomes even more painful when they repeat these thoughts and lies to others.

    I'm sorry he's hurting you so.
  3. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Well, this wasn't exactly what I had in mind when I said it might be best to wait and see what the therapist had to say. :(

    I'd be livid. He'd be out of my house so fast the boy would have whiplash. Too bad about HIPPA. (where's he gonna come up with the cash to sue, and how's he gonna prove it?)


    I'm so sorry. I know that hurts when you've tried so darned hard.

  4. flutterbee

    flutterbee Guest

    I'd say too bad about HIPPA, too. He's already proven himself untrustworthy so it would be a he said-she said kinda thing and he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

    I'd be enraged. Wow.

  5. katya02

    katya02 Solace

    Oh, and the trash-talking he did about us goes a little further than usual, in that husband has been ER Director at the hospital where the rehab program is based for sixteen years and he knows, and is known by, absolutely everyone in this very small town. And in spite of HIPAA, this trash is going to be coffee-room gossip and color people's relations with us.

    It seems petty but when you live in a small town, it would be nice to be able to go to the bank or buy a coffee without people looking sideways at you like you're from Mars.
  6. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    Oh, man. You gotta watch for that knife in the back. We're having troubles with L as well. I think winter will be bleak. If her dad follows through with his threat to call off her allowances, maybe we will hear from her in the spring. If, if, if... They are really good at manipulating, aren't they? I'm sorry he's being so awful. I know it hurts.
  7. Wishing

    Wishing New Member

    I have the same situation. I live in a small town and He has painted me as a monster.People ask them what exactly does your mom say to you when she yells at you. He says "why can't you be like the other "cool parents who smoke mj with their kids." Unfortunately he doesn't get me when I explain that I grew up job instability and health problems in the family and worked hard to get degrees and I knew early on that drinking and drugging could undue me and I could not afford getting hooked on drugs or alcohol as I had no safety net of family that would come in and do interventions. I resolved not to get involved with anyone who had more than 3 drinks in the evening. I did smoke cigarrettes though and that was enough of a habit that took time to end. What I struggle with is his perceptual problems and the constant influence of drugs and alcohol that he comes in contact with outside our home.
  8. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I take back everything I said before about waiting on therapy. Thats out the window now. There are times when that line in the sand gets crossed and there is no going back. It appears yours just flopped his big fat hairy toe right on across that line.

    If your son is living in your basement with all the amenities...well...make it a cold water flat with a 13 inch tv with rabbit ears. Food? Apartment sized you see in a motel...and a 30 buck micro and two burner hot plate. Buy pans at good will and two plates. Oh hell...make it one! Do not buy him clothes either. Anything he gets comes from the good will unless he buys it himself. If he owes you money...sue him on Judge Judy or one of those shows. Maybe Peoples Court. You can get the money back. Set a time table up for him to be gone since he has a list of living places thanks to his lying.
  9. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    Actually, HIPAA are just guidelines, and there's no HIPAA law to be broken. He'd have to prove damages to recover anything in a lawsuit, and since he has no job, there's nothing to recover. In any case, his argument is with his therapist. Not his mom. Mom doesn't have to abide by HIPAA, but she knows that - she's a doctor, just not his doctor! LOL!

    Sorry he was such a jerk. I'm with the rest. Tell him to make sure the screen door doesn't smack him too hard on the arse on his way out.
  10. trinityroyal

    trinityroyal Well-Known Member

    Another vote here for "Get out of my house"
    He crossed a HUGE line.

    Sorry he's being such an :censored2:.

  11. katya02

    katya02 Solace

    I wish HIPAA were just guidelines, but unfortunately it's a law originally passed in 1996. Congress passed the Privacy Rule in 2001, with a compliance date of April 2003. Every hospital and doctor's office in the nation had to retrofit their physical premises if necessary, and change policies, to comply. For example, now there's always a window in front of the receptionist that's kept closed so people in the waiting room can't hear her speaking on the phone; there may be multiple windows so that patients aren't waiting in lines and overhearing information; all files must be physically locked away from the public, so locking doors might have to be installed where there were open doorways before, etc. The hospital here takes it VERY seriously, since they can be fined $100,000 and up for violations, plus be charged under corporate criminal law, with side charges like conspiracy etc., so they would fire both these counselors in a heartbeat if difficult child complained. He wouldn't likely know enough to do it on his own but he'd do it in a flash if anyone (his type of friends, for instance) told him, "They can't tell your counseling stuff! You should complain! You could sue the hospital for that!"If he thought there might be $$ in it he'd do it. He wants to sue his college for humiliating him when he was arrested for drug possession in May!

    So I don't want these two women to lose their jobs and be charged and fined, and they'd definitely be at risk of that. Individually, they would face both criminal and civil liability, with up to $50,000 in fines and/or up to a year in prison, for an employee of a covered entity i.e. the hospital, conveying private information about a patient to someone else. I understand why the counselors are sweating. I think they were just so shocked at what I told them compared to what difficult child told them, that they didn't stop and think. Also not all hospital employees have it impressed on them just how bad for them a HIPAA violation would be; I don't want them to find out on difficult child's account.

    I did keep it together last night and only told husband about the screaming session in the car with difficult child. So he knows difficult child took the contract to his counseling session but he doesn't know that difficult child represented it as in force, or that difficult child has represented husband and me as angry, screaming people who pick fights and cause all the upset in the house, that he said we make him pay for his counseling appointments, that we've abused him for years, etc.

    Maybe we can get that family appointment set up somehow, so all this can come out. At that point I think husband would tell difficult child just to walk to wherever he wants from the hospital, because he's not coming home. We could tell difficult child to let us know where to drop off his stuff (or not). I'm planning to go out all day today so I don't have to have difficult child constantly coming up to me asking for hugs, asking why I seem distant, etc.

    I've had this happen before. I have a sister who's Borderline (BPD) in everything but diagnosis (she swears she's bipolar II, even though she doesn't fit criteria for that), who has told many people that she wasn't allowed to go to university because our parents spent the education fund on horses for me (she dropped out of high school against our parents' advice, went to a community college; also my mother spent the ed. fund from my grandmother on herself, and there was no money for ME to go to university); that she always wanted to ride horses but was never allowed, only I was allowed (this when she was dating a Mounted Police officer); yada yada yada to the tune that I'm responsible for her being dissatisfied with her present situation in life. She's told hospital staff during her admissions that I've made up the report that she planned to kill her kids and commit suicide at the same time, even though SHE told that directly to the EMS people that her husband called; that I've harmed her many times and she wants a protection order against me and an order that I can't visit the hospital; etc. So this isn't new to me but it doesn't get easier when it happens!
  12. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful


    I'd say your sis has ALOT more going on than just Borderline (BPD). Actually, what your sister said as her version of reality reminded me of what difficult child just did with the therapist. Very similar there.

    Now the difficult child we're referring to is the 20 yr old with the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) diagnosis?? (sorry, I'm a bit brain dead from school lately) Travis also has his own version of what happens around here. He always has, and it rarely matches anyone else's. We 're used to it. Annoying. And he can accept it if we correct him on the facts without much argument. Should have seen the neuropsychologist's face when he talked to Travis as an adult. Travis was not having a good day and the stuff coming from his mouth.........well, it couldn't get more far fetched. neuropsychologist kept looking at me, I kept shaking my head. He'd let Travis finish, then get what really took place from me and husband.

    An example. We've been emailing K for weeks and weeks now. He just now seems to get this has been going on.......and that we've straightened things out. Although he's gotten news and updates right along with everyone else the whole time. ack!

    I've never been sure if this is part of the brain damage, the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), or something else that has been overlooked along the way. neuropsychologist just wrote like mad and didn't comment on it, but did look worried. And Travis lost insurance and we couldn't afford to go back.
  13. katya02

    katya02 Solace

    Yes, the difficult child I mean is the 20 year old. He does have an autistic spectrum diagnosis from childhood, although docs more recently (in his teens) have said they don't see it, and that he's Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) but not autistic spectrum. However, he's always had a weird sense of time, always had a completely different version than anyone else about what's happening, doesn't seem to register that important things are going on (like daughter's accident and surgery - he showed no interest in how she was, didn't ask questions about why she was in a chair with a casted arm up on ice, taking medications every four hours etc. - and showed no emotion when he was told). It could be that he's autistic spectrum, or it could be that he's so narcissistic or antisocial that no one registers on his radar but himself. At times he seems to have a good heart, but it also appears there's always something in it for him. Yet he will cry at a really sad song or movie - doesn't seem like antisocial behavior.

    I don't know, and I'm so tired of trying to understand him, wondering if he's autistic or just a bad apple, trying to analyze why he's done or said the things he did. Could he really have seen himself as a peaceful, not-angry guy and us as angry screaming freaks the entire time he was assaulting his brother, threatening me, stabbing our house, punching holes in walls, and kicking down doors this summer? He definitely gets all upset and angry if anyone challenges his self-perception. But is that just a defense to push people and their challenges away, or is it truly outrage? I'm so tired of trying to decide.

    What difficult child did is exactly the sort of thing my sis has done all her life. She's reinvented our entire family history and made false accusations. When she's upset, she believes everything she says. When calm again she tries to deny it or brush it off or redirect the conversation with an anger attack. But just like difficult child, if really cornered about her lies she'll admit that she knows the truth.

    One time she called me in hysterics, saying our mother had told her she couldn't ever bring her kids over again. That was all I could understand from her. When I checked with our mother, she was astounded. She'd had sis over that afternoon and given her some cute plastic ice cream cups and spoons for sis's kids, that she was otherwise going to sell in a yard sale. When I asked sis wth, she said that when mother gave her the ice cream things she FELT that they wouldn't be asked there for ice cream anymore, that that was what it meant to her; so she told me she'd been TOLD she couldn't bring the kids over anymore. All she would say was, 'That was how I felt! It was how I felt!'

    After too many episodes like the one with the hospitalization, I've distanced myself as much as I can. And now I'm living it all over again. :(
  14. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Katya that's the sort of thing we see with Travis. We don't have manipulative behavior, or "it's all about me" behavior going on. Nor does he tell people we treat him badly and such. Just the skewing of reality. He can be very kind, considerate, caring and loving, yet also seem to forget a person exists if they're not physically present in his daily world or talked about. When I was run over by the truck several years back, to be honest, Travis didn't get it. Zipped right over his head. Phhht! When I came home with a broken shoulder and the other I couldn't use either, he'd forget. Like I'm the Mom, I do this this and this. That I couldn't, I had to keep reminding him several times. He doesn't do any sort of change well. Well Mom changed to injured Mom and he didn't know what he was supposed to do ect. Another good example.......took it 3 days to register that easy child had given birth to Darrin because she didn't live in our home. (and he'd gone to the hospital to see her)

    I'd asked because I'd gotten confused about which difficult child we were talking about. Like I said.....I'm a bit brain dead once I'm done with school for the day. lol

    But dxes or not, Travis is expected to follow the same house rules as everyone else. Violence would be immediate eviction. Not following house rules would also lead him to moving out. Which would mean I'd have to find somewhere because at this time he's unable live alone. You're right that in the long run the dxes only matter to a point. They still have to be able to live in the world regardless.

  15. KTMom91

    KTMom91 Well-Known Member

    Katya, I'm so sorry. Sending hugs, prayers, and lots of extra strength.
  16. janebrain

    janebrain New Member

    Hi Katya,
    the story about your sister and the ice cream cups sounds so typical for someone with Borderline (BPD). My difficult child 1 has Borderline (BPD) traits, not sure if she actually has the disorder, but she did the same sorts of things. She had a great therapist while in an Residential Treatment Center (RTC) who used dbt therapy and she did seem to understand that her perception of reality was not the only one. I remember her telling me she thought I didn't love her and it was based on something I had said years ago that didn't even have anything to do with love--can't remember what it was now. Anyway, she had taken this little anthill and grown it into a huge mountain over the next few years and it was not based on anything that was true. With this intensive therapy she did seem to be able to change her black and white thinking somewhat and to realize that she often read into other people's words and actions in an incorrect way.

    You are in a no-win situation with your son at this point. He is 20 years old, I would kick him out. You are going to have draw really strong boundary lines with him, he is not going to recognize any boundaries unless you force him to. You are not able to help him, he is going to have to want it for himself and he obviously sees nothing wrong with himself at this point.

    I thought my dtr was really fragile and couldn't make it on her own--she seemed like a lost puppy to me despite all the awful things she said and did. I thought she needed me and when I wasn't feeling furious with her I was feeling sorry for her. Whenever I felt sorry for her she really took advantage of me. Finally, we did kick her out at age 18 and lo and behold she managed to survive. I had a younger dtr and just couldn't let difficult child live with us any longer. I had to put the younger one first and let the older one go and let the cards fall where they may.