PLEASE hear me out! my five year olds' behavior!!!

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by army wife, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. army wife

    army wife New Member

    :hangin:AAhh help I don't know what to do, lol. My son will be 5 next week and he is out of control I should have never let it get this far but I did without realizing it and time outs and spankings (which I'm actually hate!) are not working, he doesn't care if i take his toys or tell him no park, no t.v., he don't care he is just careless. He's in his own little world. He barley even gets sugar anymore or food dyes, my last resort was to spanking with a belt cause in my husband's family hitting with a belt is the 'right way' but I was against it and now Ifeel like I should and then I just realized I'm a bad mother for even thinking about it! Honeslty, I don't even think that would work. he makes messes nonstop and refuses to clean them up. Spagetti noodles he took out of the kitchen cabnent all over his floor even after hours of time outs and open hand spankings(which I never wanted to do ), and no t.v. for a day, it's been 2 days so I just cleaned them up. stuff like this...
  2. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    He needs a comprehensive evaluation. There is something else going on, and you need to know what that is, so that you can understand where he is coming from.

    For example, if he is sensory seeking, he may not be intentionally making messes, just doesn't understand that trying to meet his (very real) sensory need is a major problem for you. He may not understand that if it isn't a problem for him it may still be a major problem for you.

    Some of "our" kids are wired very differently. They don't think like we do. What we see as a "logical" approach, isn't logical to them. What we see as cause and effect, they don't catch on to. And it isn't their fault any more than it is our own fault. It's the way they are wired.

    For our family? The closer we get to understanding what drives the behavior, the more success we have in modifying our approach to get a better result. It takes time to figure this stuff out, but it's worth it... BUT. It usually requires good input from appropriate professionals.
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
  3. army wife

    army wife New Member

    thank you I agree with you, I feel so bad about spanking him even though he never even cried.
  4. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    We've all been "over the top" in our actions/reactions at some point. Somehow, having a major difficult child with un-diagnosed issues tends to bring out the worst in us, too. It isn't easy being the parent of a difficult child.

    But knowledge is power.

    Have you seen the book "The Explosive Child" by R. Greene?
  5. Ktllc

    Ktllc New Member

    Look into spychological evaluation, neuro-psychological evaluation, psycho-educational evaluation. A lot swear by the neuro-psychiatric but you have to see what is available in your area.
    Your very first step though should be to talk to his pediatrician. That's what I did for V and she was quite helpful.
    Right now, you are at the stage where you see the problems it causes in your life.
    As you pregress in the understanding of you difficult child's underlying issues, you will be able to conceptualize the problems better, understand where it's coming from and then deal with it better.
    Even if you don't end up with a firm diagnosis for your difficult child (he is so young), you will gain knowledge and that will be a HUGE help.
    You can also look into speech and Occupational Therapist (OT) evaluation. Those are usually easy to schedule and could reveal a lot.
    Our first helpful econsultation was the Occupational Therapist (OT) evaluation. And that gave us other clueand little by little we are gathering the pieces of the puzzle.
    Since your difficult child is not quite 5, I assume he will enter K in 1 year. See it as a whole year of exploration and learning of his issues. As you learn, you'll be able to start teaching new skills to him.
    The forum will guide you in your journey.
  6. nvts

    nvts Active Member

    Hi! The guilt is tough enough - the fact that it didn't accomplish anything is a kick in the pants. I will caution you that it's illegal in most (if not all) to use a belt or anything else to careful as someone could report it and you'll then add the stress of an investigation.

    Occupational Therapist (OT) really comes to mind for your son - especially since the spanks didn't get any type of reaction - I almost wonder if there's a sensory issue involved. Have you considered keeping a journal as to what's going on right before he "winds up and goes ballistic?" There could be things that could be over-stimulating him which are causing the meltdown...try and watch him and see if there's anything that sets him off. Standard every day things to us could be very difficult for him. Simple things like the smell of burnt toast - we don't like the smell, but for him it could be assaultive...a hug...a toothy grin...tons of stuff. Look at it via sound, sight, taste, visual, or feel. You might be very surprised!

    I agree about going the neuropsyche route or a developmental pediatrician - it'll open doors for you. Read the Explosive Child - you'll get a little insight to how he's thinking rather than the conventional way that our brains process things.

    And most of all - let go of the guilt - it doesn't do any good - and can be debilitating.

    Take care of yourself - and remember we're here for you :)

  7. TeDo

    TeDo Guest

    I agree with the others. Guilt will get you nowhere but I will tell you that spanking, more times than not, makes things worse with kids like ours (if it affects them at all). You really need to get a thorough evaluation to try to figure out what might be causing this behavior.

    I do want to tell you that the key to dealing with the behavior is to figure out WHY he's doing it. As parents, we tend to assume a LOT and with difficult child's, we are usually wrong. Neurotypical ("normal") people usually can't think like difficult child's think. difficult child's think VERY differently than most people and the key is to figure out how they think.

    I'm thinking sensory seeking also. A good Occupational Therapist (OT) should be able to help with that. His lack of reaction to a painful spanking and playing with uncooked noodles kind of point in that direction. As for the messes themselves, have you calmly asked him why he "played" with whatever the mess is? Be curious and unthreatening and then really listen to his answers. You might be amazed and I guarantee you will learn a LOT. With the not cleaning up, have you explained why it needs to be cleaned up? It could be that he really doesn't understand WHY he has to clean it. Figuring out the WHY of difficult child 1's behavior like this (putting aside ANY assumptions) made a huge difference in teaching difficult child 1 the cause and effect of his actions and helped a LOT. Our house has gotten more peaceful and I have realized that difficult child 1 IS different int he way he sees the world.
  8. Angela41

    Angela41 New Member

    First, I'm in agreement that spankings will make things worse, and it's adding to your stress by causing you to feel guilty. Don't get in a power struggle about the messes. Give him a choice between cleaning it up, or losing a valued privilege. If he chooses to lose the privilege, clean up the mess, take the privilege, and move on. Be very neutral- you're issuing the consequences, but he's making choices. If you catch him beginning mischief the next day remind him what happened the previous day and redirect him to something positive. Repeat, repeat. I agree that it may be time to talk with a therapist if he's acting out this badly on a regular basis. It could be anything on a long list.
  9. army wife

    army wife New Member

    Thank you all, well, the low amount of sugar and food dyes didn't help as much as it seemed to at first. It's crazy how I feel like a bad mom when I spank and then others (not you guys!) make me feel like a bad mom when I don't spank. So, my husbands family is wrong about spanking with a belt, right? thanks I really wanted to hear that I don't like that family at all. and yes I understand my child is wired differently then others but maybe I just feel like sometimes I'm using that as an excuse to not have to try harder with him? i am not going to spank him anymore, I cannot believe it but spanking doesn't really affect him the way I thought it would. I feel like I am hanging on a thread with him and he is really pushing me to my limits and I just want to have more paitence. This causes so many problems in our every day life, it keeps us at home and it keeps us inside the house and I fear even the unfenced backyard. He has seen a developmental pediatrician before and has an IEP and has been in special education preschool, Monday he will be starting his 3rd year of Special Education pre-k. He has been evaluated and is about to be evaluated again. the sensory journal sounds great I am going to do that but I have to idea how to do it, so any help with that? and I really loved that someone said clean up or loose privlege I think that's a great idea! no more clean up and loose a privlege every hour you don't clean anything up...what was I thinking??
  10. SuZir

    SuZir Well-Known Member

    First few disclaimers: I live in the country there any kind of spanking is illegal, has been around three decades. I don't really believe in spanking with any kids. I just don't see benefits outweighing the negatives. However; we have spanked our difficult child. First when he was young, around four or five. We tried using spanking few months, didn't help, made things worse. We were desperate enough to try again several years later, that was total catastrophe, using spanking quickly escalated to the bad situation, it certainly didn't make difficult child's behaviour any better, it did a lot of damage to his and his dad's relationship (he was doing the spanking) and we still regret it. With our difficult child the severity of the violence that would had been needed to change his behaviour would had simply and totally unacceptable. Severity that husband used in the second period we tried using spankings was already much over the limit and it certainly didn't make any positive difference.

    With your son: if spanking with the hand doesn't change his behaviour, why would anyone think using a belt would? Child will not see any philosophical difference between hand and a belt. And the force one can use in spanking without it turning truly abusive isn't something you need belt for. If spanking is not working, it will not work any better with the belt. When spanking works, it doesn't usually work because the amount of pain, but because of other factors. If few smacks don't work, the amount of pain needed to make it 'work' (or kid afraid enough to not get caught) is almost guaranteed to be abusive and totally unacceptable.
  11. army wife

    army wife New Member

    Really, SuZir? I'm glad I read that. Because I have honestly been told alot that my kids act out cause I don't spank them hard enough. and I have told them that I once spank so hard I left a hand print and won't do it again and they were like so, we leave marks on our kids bottom all the time. So if what all of you are saying is right then almost everyone I know is abusive...which i wouldn't really be surprized. but what do I do when all these idiots keep telling me that it's my fault my kid is out of control cause I need to keep hitting harder and harder till it works when I figured that was wrong and wouldnt' listen to them anyway. what do i say to ppl who try to force me to hit my kids? EVERYONE is! And I have told them that it makes them think it's okay to hit and they are like "bull sh*t" and keep saying I'm too lazy and everyone is blaming me on his behavior problems saying I refuse to disicipline him! Gasp: sorry that turned into a vent.
  12. TeDo

    TeDo Guest

    army wife, I have had to deal with my own family members' mentalities that are similar to what you're dealing with. My mother was a "spanker". That was ALL she ever did and she used it for EVERY infraction, big or small. All it did was make me afraid of her still at the age of 49. I didn't learn a darned thing except to fear my mother's anger. Yes, it is against the law to spank with anything other than an open hand, anywhere but their tushies, or hard enough to leave marks. That is how CPS and law enforcement define abuse so yes, those people are abusers.

    I got so frustrated hearing that s*** that I quit talking to my mom completely for over 4 months and even now we have VERY limited contact and the minute she says anything negative about me or my kids I hang up or leave without another word. You aren't going to change THEIR minds so you do what you can do FOR YOUR CHILD. THEY come first and the others can go jump off a cliff. It took a long time for me to get to that point but I sure feel a LOT better now that I've set this boundary and stick to it consistently. They can think what they want but you don't HAVE to participate in their "delusion".
  13. SuZir

    SuZir Well-Known Member

    Any scientific studies I have seen have not showed spanking as such a bright idea. But of course that doesn't matter to most of those people.

    What is considered abusive is matter of opinion and culture. Unfortunately I have to say we did cross a line not only from our own cultural point of view (and we are more sensitive in this topic than most) but from most points of view. When your kid needs a doctor because you were trying to punish him, you absolutely know you have gone too far (it was an accident, but the accident that wouldn't had happen if husband wasn't trying to spank difficult child.) And difficult child did have marks from spankings before that last one. Didn't change a thing in his behaviour. Could had gotten us in major trouble with CPS and police. Did make things worse with difficult child. So not worth it.

    You have already spanked your child hard enough to leave a mark and that didn't help. What makes anyone think that hitting little harder and leaving more marks would help? And beating a child black and blue is probably considered abusive also by those friends of yours, who don't think leaving little bit marks is that bad? I honestly don't believe that hitting little bit harder would help. When spanking works, it is usually because it is a clear sign of parental disapproval, not because of the pain. After all, kids hurt themselves worse than any sane person would spank quite often and that doesn't stop them of doing those things. My kids have broken bones and not learn a thing, but have been back to do the same things right after the cast is off. How many kids do you know who have for example fallen with bike, hurt themselves and never rode a bike again? I don't know any.

    I had to listen muttering about how difficult child would just need a good spanking quite often. if I could, I avoided the situations, if not, i just listened and didn't comment. You are not raising your child to please your friends. And by the way, if they do often spank enough to leave the marks, and say it would help with your child, you can always ask, how would it be, when it is not helping that much with their kids. If it would be so effective, they would had needed to do it only once.
  14. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I t hink spanking is counterproductive. That just shows them that WE lose control and when we do, we hit them. I'm with Suzir on this and also think you need to get him to a neuropsychologist.
  15. bigbear11

    bigbear11 Guest

    Boy, have I been there... thinking that she just wasn't "getting it". I honestly feel that some of the things we are dealing with now are what she learned during some of our early years. But that being said... we were doing the best we could at the time and you have to forgive yourself for that. What works for most kids just doesn't work for some others (most difficult children). So that being said...what is important now is what you do from here on. Have him evaluated so you get better knowledge about what you are dealing with and then learn all you can. This group is great!! They have so much experience and advice to offer... some may work for you and some may not but it is so empowering to know that you are not alone and get advice from parents who have lived it.

    If you are like me, it will be one of the hardest things you have ever done to learn to not engage with him when he is getting wound up. But it is very worth it as you have alot more control over how things go than you probably think now. It took me too many years to get that thru my head (but I think it is there for good now!!).

    Welcome and good luck on the journey!
  16. chloedancer

    chloedancer New Member

    I am pretty anti spanking also. Most studies show it does little to change behavior but can cause anxiety and depressive symptoms and hinder brain development. Punishment itself is fairly ineffective, unless it is logical. And when you have a child wit special needs the risk of " going too far" is even greater. Why would hurting your child more be effective? I hear it constantly, but I have learned to quote studies and stand up to it. My come back to " he needs his xxx beat" is " is that how your parents taught you to be so supportive and t o know how to respect boundaries?" and to " my parents spanked me and I am fine" is " yes, and my father was an alcoholic who was in and out of my life. I turned out ok but I am certainly not copying that behavior either."
  17. TeDo

    TeDo Guest

    Nice comebacks chloedancer!!! I'll have to remember those.
  18. army wife

    army wife New Member

    Choledancer I love those too. When I hear ppl say they were spank and turned out fine I say something along those lines...I know ppl who ...blank...and turned out fine. lol. and yes ppl around me say "bust his a**" once I even snapped "ya let's beat the autism right out of him!" scarcastic, they haven't even really diagnoised him with that yet they said just maybe I don't know why I even said that but it shut them up. My husbands cousins' son kept hitting his neighbors dog one day and she just kept hitting him, his hand or wherever she missed, slap after slap shouting "no! Ethan stop it!" and he just kept doing it I was so annoyed.
  19. army wife

    army wife New Member

    I don't know why I let ppl get to me, I just get so upset because of things they say and all I can do is think of the next time and how I am going to react better. my sister in law got so mad because I let my kids eat in her living room, I didn't 'let' them I'm sure when I walked into the bathroom my 2 and 4 year old just walked into the living room not knowing any better cause at home I let them eat in the living room. I never noticed they did and later she found a piece of poptart and was so mad it was stupid and was like "WE don't eat in the living room" well like I told her I let my kids so they didn't know any better and I tried to keep them in the kitchen but it's hard to keep an eye on them 24/7 which she should know my mother in law is pretty much raising her kids for her while she hangs out with friends and talks on the phone. My sister in law takes care of those kids 15% of the time but when she is with them she yells and them and spanks them hard and alot for EVERYTHING. I told my husband he needs to talk to his brother.
  20. chloedancer

    chloedancer New Member

    When I see people smack their child and say " we don't hit." I so badly want to say obviously WE do, as I just saw you both hit. But that would be overstepping. It just strikes me as weird. Don't let your sister in law get to you either. You kids didn't know her rules. How could they?