PLEASE someone be online...this is LONG

[ML]

I think you're doing a good job. I like Janna's wrap around suggestion.

I just wanted to encourage you for committment to parenting her. Some of my mistakes include just doing that stuff myself because of the fallouts but I have made my own demon monster now and at almost 9 I'm having to start at the beginning. By now he should be responsible for cleaning his room instead of us starting from the beginning. My point is that you're doing it the right way. I applaud you for keeping at it and for your determination. Way to go girl!

MicheleL

 

[flutterbee]

Kitty, I'm trying really hard not to laugh, but failing miserably. Wynter cut her hair at that age, too. I found a lock of hair on the floor beside her bookshelf like she was trying to hide it. I brought the evidence down with me and she denied, denied, denied. The kid had waist length hair; it's not like it wasn't noticeable.

You know what? It's her hair and she's the one that has to deal with the other kids. But, I would take her scissors away. And she can taunt you from her room all she wants. It's just that much longer she'll have to be in there cause it will be that much longer until her room is clean.

I know it's hard, but if you show her you mean business this time, it will be that much easier next time.

 

[ck1]

BBK: Janna is so so so right! If I could go back and do anything with my 16 year old difficult child, I would follow the advice given by Janna. Maybe we wouldn't be where we are today if I had known then what I know now. Honestly...if I could turn back time...

 

[AllStressedOut]

I did just remember something that worked with my oldest easy child. Hes a SLOB! I take the broom and sweep it all into one big pile and let him sit there and go through that 1 big pile. The rest of the room is clean, so its not as overwhelming.

Now, he is 12 and he is still a total SLOB, so I just shut the door. But if I really get sick and tired of it, sweeping it all into one pile helps.

 

[Kathy813]

BBK,

Here is a link to a newspaper column by John Rosemond. The little girl that he is describing sounds a lot like Tink.

John Rosemond

~Kathy

 

[mattsmum]

One possible option. Money motivates my difficult child. Although my husband and I believe that children should have chores that they have to do (like making their beds)...I tried something new and it helped.

I came up with a job chart for both kids. We kept it simple. For every chore they did, I would initial their chart. For every chore they did not do, I drew a sad face. Every Saturday, they would get $2 allowance...minus 25 cents for every sad face. However, I think having "clean your room" on there would be too overwhelming. I would start small...like "put away your Barbie Dolls."

I also agree with what someone else posted...box away a lot of her stuff and start small. Just have a few things in her room and help her every night to put them in their place. Once she shows responsibility with that, you can add more. I bought some great plastic drawers at BIG LOTS that really helped my kids to get organized.

 

[BusynMember]

My advice was only if you preferred more peace in the house until the child is stable...lol. Didn't mean a love-in for Ross Greene. I used him when my kid was a toddler, and he's fourteen now and VERY compliant. Although he started out a pig, the kid has a very neat room now, and I don't even have to ride him about it.
I think it really matters about your priorities. If I were sick, I'd feel I was better off being well in order to take care of my child and that the stress of forcing a raging kid to clean his room AT THAT TIME was not worth my physical or mental health. I'm also not convinced (nor does anyone really know) that kids are defiant because they are just "bad" kids. MOST kids will take over if they can, but the difference between easy child kids and difficult child kids (I've had both and I'm a mom of five with all of them over ten) is that easy child kids are easier to control. They may put up mild resistance, but they certainly don't rage. It's in my opinion a matter of temperament. My son was a horrible toddler. He is also on the autism spectrum and has a lower tolerance for things than my daughter, who can try rebellion but complies REAL fast when we threaten to ground her. She doesn't want to miss her friends and her electronics. SHE CARES. It's harder when a child plain out doesn't care or is so out of control that he cares, but his behavior becomes even more resistant when he's told what to do. And sometimes, for all the yelling, nothing is accomplished.
I think the poster (sorry...forgot your name...lol) is a very good parent and it sounds like she got her child to at least stay in her room. Hon, I don't know what's wrong with you, but I hope you don't make yourself sick over this. It sounds like you want to get her to clean that room and are having success--so good for you, but don't let her get to you. Also, I don't think it's unreasonable to empty her room except for her bed and dresser. WHen my son was little he used to throw everything around. We took everything out of his room except his bed and a dresser with a few items of clothes. If he wanted his toys he got one at a time. This is partly how he learned to clean up without our even asking him. He didn't like having to ask for his belogings which were locked away from him. I highly recommend the empty room...lol. And to all of you who aren't Ross Greene fans, I have to say, I NEVER meant to use Ross forever. We used him until we didn't need him any more and we came up with some ideas on our own (like the empty room) and right now Lucas is no longer a behavior problem. He even cleans downstairs, does the garbage, and mows the lawn because that's how he 'earns' his allowance. peace :wink:

 

[mattsmum]

I read the John Rosemond link and I have to disagree with him. You could take my difficult child's stuff away forever and it would not change his behavior. Been there, done that and tired of beating myself up over it. He has a neurobiological disorder and we're doing the best we can.

 

[nvts]

BBK - Wish I could be there to help with the room. I don't know that I have a lot to offer. It stinks that she's able to hit sore spots with the name calling and hitting you when you're down. We have a nephew who's mom (my sister) is having major neurological problems. Every time she "relapses" for lack of a better term, this kids behavior gets worse and worse and worse. I sat down with him the other day and asked him why and he didn't know. Then I asked him if he was scared (after listing like 8 different possibilities) he got really teary and said "yeah". There's two possibilities:

1. she's manipulating you and just taking advantage of the opportunity
2. her behavior tanked when you got sicker- maybe she's scared that you're never going to get better, (in my nephews words) will die, and then she'll be all alone

That being said, I've done the dinner- clean, breakfast-clean, lunch-clean, dinner-clean and finally ended up with a clean room. HOWEVER: once the room was clean, all of his toys were boxed up and in order to get a different toy to play with, he had to return the prior one. It was a "library" system, but it kept the room cleaner.

by the way: Didn't you say that she's a little nervous about bugs? I'd tell her she can't have food in her room because it could attract bugs. Even though difficult child 2 isn't scared of them, I'm totally grossed out at the idea of bugs shacking up in a bedroom!!

Oh, remind her that school starts in 3 weeks and you don't think the hair is going to grow back in time :grin: and that cows can't drive to beauty salons to fix it!!

:rofl:

Much love & hope for a better night headed your way!

Beth

 

[Big Bad Kitty]

Sigh.


Thank you one and all for the replies. I am bawling like an idiot right now, reading and re-reading your posts (and your link, thank you Kathy) and trying to absorb. Trying to process. Trying to develop a way that will work Tink.

In case anyone missed it when I posted this a few weeks ago (and it could NOT be more appropriate right now) I referred to Tink as a difficult child when I was talking to my mom. She asks "Hmm, what is a difficult child?" I apologize, telling her it was a force of habit, and explain the whole gift from God thing. She gives me a "Psht!" and says "Yeah. A gag gift."

Okay, not crying now.

 

[Wiped Out]

I've never been one that it matters if their rooms are messy (to a point) because my mom was a neat freak and it drove me crazy.

I know when difficult child was younger I would make some of his clutter disappear. When he wasn't around I would toss stuff I figured he wouldn't miss. He never did notice.

When my difficult child was 6 no way could he clean a room on his own but part of that is with-some of his issues. I remember the Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) therapist we saw last year when difficult child was 9 saying he was emotionally like a 3-4 year old. We had to be there with-him step by step.

Now he still needs help but tries harder to keep it clean. As for mess he leaves around the house I will tell him it gets picked up or no (whatever it is he wants at the time). He's not happy but he'll begrudgingly get it done.

BBK-I'm sorry it's so hard right now-sending some hugs your way!

 

[Nancy]

Kathy,

I'm with you and Janna too. I have never been a Ross Greene fan, it just didn't work for me. I like how you and Janna think too, you make so much sense to me, it's how I try to parent also. I have this thing about kids not being allowed to control the family...or hold the family hostage as I often said. Society was going to hold my difficult child responsible at some point so it was my job to teach her that.

It doesn't work for everyone but it waas the only way Iknew how to be.

Nancy

 

[nvts]

You know, a really brilliant, vibrant, funny woman made a point to me a few weeks ago when I joined this board, hmmmm, I wonder who it was that pointed out that (and I quote)


"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

Now who was that?

I can't seem to remember...


:smile:

Beth

 

[Big Bad Kitty]

Touche.

Boy, I love you Beth.



I think I need a good nights sleep (Tink is asleep already, hooray Abilify) and a clear mind tomorrow.

Thank you all. Don't know where I would be without you.

 

[DazedandConfused]

"Yeah. A gag gift."

OMG! I'm cracking up. I've certainly wanted to "gag" times raising my little gag..ir...gifts.

As someone who has not been well that ended up having surgery, I understand just wanting to crawl into a hole and pulling the hole down with you. It's hard enough with difficult child when we are on top of our game physically.

I think that Rosemond and Greene has their place. I have found both useful depending on the situation. Greene was useful more early on when I was trying to get my bearings after years of difficult child trauma. I was frustrated and exhausted. However, once I managed to get my mojo back I became more Rosemond-like.

First off, you need to try to get yourself into a "calm-assertive" state (I love the Dog Whisperer). Not easy, I know.
If SHOW that you are angry, frustrated, and ready to tie her to the car and drag her, if she is the manipulator as you say, she is going to keep up with the little comments and resistive behavior. It's not fun to throw verbal daggers at a unresponsive target. I also tell my difficult children, "You can think it, but don't you dare say it".

The poster (sorry, I don't remember who) that stated that her difficult child LIKED having his room cleared out is on to something. I say this as I am cleaning out my own bedroom preparing to move into my new mastersuite. My decor was romantic. Lots of lace and, frankly, CLUTTER. I don't want the clutter anymore. It's stressful to me now. I'm donating tons of stuff. Maybe Tink has too much stuff and other than punish, clearing her room may lower her stress level, along with yours.

One more thing, both my difficult children struggle with picking up after themselves. I got two new chairs that NOBODY was suppose to eat in, yet 18 months later, they are both covered with food stains. Of course, all done when I am not home. And both deny eating in them (yeah, right). So, it's always a work in progress.

 

[flutterbee]

At one point, I put most of difficult child's things (she has so much stuff, I swear it multiplies because I couldn't have possibly bought all that stuff...could I?) in the basement. I then bought really cute storage systems (pink and purple...very girly), under-bed storage, a bulletin board for her wall...you name it. It made not one iota of a difference.

Wynter has executive function disorders and the whole planning, organizing thing is very hard for her. She also just doesn't see a lot of the stuff. Literally. Very hard to wrap my mind around. And she wasn't motivated to find a way to compensate. Because I was so ill and I couldn't deal with the battle, I just started closing her door. Eventually, she did get tired of not being able to find anything. And I do mean anything. She lost her beloved Nintendo DS in her room for a few weeks. She could never find any socks. She lost brand new clothes in her room. When I say "lost", I mean that they were in her room buried somewhere. Her room was....there are just no words for it.

Then a couple of months ago (or so...I have no concept of time this summer), a girl she's been friends with since the age of 4 helped her get started. Wynter could never have done it completely on her own. But she found that she really likes being able to move around in her room. She likes knowing where everything is. And she really likes having socks. And she found that if she actually puts her clothes in her hamper AND I can get to her hamper, her clothes get washed. I didn't do the searching for clothes thing in that mess...I wasn't setting foot into it.

She keeps it clean now. She'll ask me to remind her to clean her room the next day if it's too late to do it when she thinks of it. IOW, she got sick of it eventually. It took her awhile, but then my baby girl is stubborn as an ox. Makes a mother proud. *sniff* :rofl:

Some people have said that if she's doing this at 6 imagine what she'll be like as a teenager. Those were my thoughts exactly and it would make me cringe. However, my daughter has proved me wrong.

I'm sorry she's giving you such a hard time. Parenting sure is a thankless job. (((hugs)))

 

[Steely]

Just wanted you to know I am thinking of you. I know how hard it all is, and I am sending you positive thoughts and prayers, hoping this will all get easier.

 

[jamrobmic]

I don't think Ross Greene advocates letting a child run your household. I think anyone who thinks employing his methods means letting your kid do what they want so they won't have a tantrum completely misses the point. And I don't think his methods are helpful with every kid who throws a fit (nor are they meant to be). I do think there are some kids who are wired differently (due to various reasons), or have psychological issues (also due to various reasons), that make the usual parenting methods useless with them.

My son was a easy child for about the first eight years of his life, and then he became extremely oppositional. The more he balked, the more strict I was. If I told him to wash his hands, and he didn't wash his hands, I dragged him over to the sink and forced him to wash his hands. This didn't make him more obedient, it made him more defiant. However, we parented like this until he started getting into real trouble at 15. He skipped a day of school (yes, "one" day), so I had the school charge him with truancy, which got him into the juvenile system. If you thought I was tough on him, they were ten times tougher. NONE OF IT changed his behavior. So we were forced to change our parenting by picking our battles. Our goal wasn't blind obedience to our every command, it was to change behavior that was destructive to him. That didn't mean letting him do what he wanted. He did not run our household. But if he didn't wash his hands, so what?

As for John Rosemond's belief that some kids are just bad, and that chemical imbalances don't exist...well, my son was a different person on medication, and now that he's off medication, he's a different person again (one with a nasty disposition, unfortunately). Others have noticed the difference as well, so it's not just my imagination. I don't think that's the case with every kid, but for some, I believe it is.

 

[Mrs Smith]

I think Ross Greene is being misrepresented here. Basket A is for non-negotiable things that you are willing to endure a meltdown over, Basket B is for things you would like to see happen and which you are going to try negotiating to get and Basket C is for things you don't care about at the moment and will drop immediately. What things you put in each basket is completely personal and varies for each of us. He never said what specifically you had to put in which basket. He also said as your child becomes more stable, you add more things to Baskets A and B. It's a completely flexible system and can be individualized for each family.

Obviously a clean room is not a Basket C item for you. It might be for Ross Greene or for someone else. For me, it would be a Basket B item and I would work to negotiate an equitable solution that meets my standards and my kids' abilities. She's testing you and senses your indecision on the matter. Figure out where you stand and stay the course. It's easier said than done but you'll figure out what works best for you and your kid. Good luck!

 

[Kathy813]

John Rosemond doesn't think some kids are just bad. He thinks that <u>all</u> kids are naturally self-centered (think two-year-olds) and need to be taught by their parents that the world doesn't revolve around them after the age of two. He was just making the point that some are more resistant to that idea than others. He is big on teaching responsibility, self-discipline, and emphathy which he believes in turn builds genuine self-esteem. He isn't big on the notion that telling kids that they are great simply because they were born builds self-esteem.

He is also not against all medications. He simply thinks they are overprescribed and that non medication therapy should also be tried. He has links on his website to sites about Autism and ADHD so it's not like he is saying those disorders don't exist.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about his beliefs. For example, he does not believe spanking is particularly effective although he also doesn't think a swat between the ages of 2 and 6 is going to traumatize a child for life either. He does advocate other methods of discipline as more effective options.

I'm sure that I am not doing justice to Dr. Rosemond. I hope that anyone who is interested will go to his website and read more in his own words.

As far as Ross Greene, I did read his book. It's just not for me. I don't think BBK should have to "negotiate" with a 6 year old about whether she is going to clean her room.

~Kathy