Possible little difficult child in the making or is it just normal 4 year old behavior?

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by DammitJanet, Oct 24, 2010.

  1. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Keyana's maternal grandma ( We call her Grandma Linda so that is what we shall refer to her from now on ok?) talked to me yesterday while we were at another of her pageants. (She won! Wee Miss Pretty in Pink...lol)

    Seems Keyana's Pre-K teacher nabbed Grandma Linda the other day when she went to pick Keyana up to talk to her about Keyana's behavior in class. You know that talk..."Are you XXX's grandma?" Gulp! Well it seems our little angel isnt laying down for nap appropriately and is getting up and down during seat time. She wanders around the room and talks too much which is interrupting other children. Reminds me of Jamie to be honest.

    They dont expect them to actually sleep at nap time but they are supposed to lay there quietly. She is popping up and wandering around. Wont listen to her teacher.

    Gma Linda is asking for our assistance in toughening up on her and also making sure she knows that we expect her to mind her teacher and listen to grown ups. Of course we will do that. She also seems to be having a bit of trouble with learning her letters and phonics and such things. They expect so much so young these days.

    I have bought two learning toys that deal with letters and sounds - one for my house and one for hers. I will work as hard as I can with her of course.

    As we all know, my kids had attentional problems. It wouldnt surprise me a bit if she inherited some. I seriously am thinking about suggesting to Linda that she request the school to test her...or I am thinking of asking my therapist to take an informal look at her for ADD and then go from there. I do not see any signs of bipolar in her at all. I think the genes crossed with the boys. Jamie got the bipolar side and Cory got the ADHD side...maybe.

    Of course, it could just be that she is a young 4. She just turned 4 in June. She is just starting to be much more outgoing and not as shy. Part of that is due to all the pageants...lol. She has learned she can do more by herself and is not an extension of us so it may be that she sees herself as more grown up...I dont know. 3 months ago she couldnt go on stage without momma, now she can go up there like a pro and strut her stuff and turn and pose and do all of it like she is much older. Maybe that has caused her to act like she knows it all everywhere else too.

    Cory has told her several times over the years that she had better behave for her momma and her grandma and he better not get calls saying she was acting up at school or he was going to tan her hiney. Good girls act like good girls and he wants a good girl. She really wants to please him so she always says she will be good. He says he is going to have a long talk with her and threaten to go to her school and make her behave. That might do it.
  2. muttmeister

    muttmeister Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't get too excited about it yet. Obviously, she does need to learn to do what is expected at school, but she is four. It takes awhile for kids to get the message.

    As far as learning letters and sounds, she is young for that too. Some kids show an aptitude for that kind of learning early, and some take awhile to come to that. There are all kinds of scholarly studies out there that show that whether kids learn to read at 3 or at 6 or 7, by the time they are in 3rd or 4th grade, they all tend to even out and those who were taught early show no distinct advantages. We live in a society that has decided that kids must be taught academics early, whether they are ready or not. Don't let them push you into demanding that she learn something she is not ready for.

    There is nothing wrong with demanding she get the message that she has to obey the teacher and do what is expected in her classroom but as far as the advanced learning goes, I'd bide my time. If she seems to be bright and learning from situations where she NEEDS to use the knowledge, then probably it is just a case of waiting while until she is ready.
  3. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Janet I wouldn't worry about it at this point. You can always keep an eye on her......but really each child is different. Aubrey can follow rules/teacher instruction/nap time stuff because she's used to daycare where it's the same sort of set up once they hit toddler stage. Although Nichole got those talks around 18 mos - 2 yrs when Aubrey flat out refused to do anything they wanted her to do. lol It just took her a while to get used to the set up and lying down with 20 other kids in the same room.

    Keyana is smart as a whip, I don't doubt that a bit. Attention may be an issue.....but she is only 4 and most 4 yr olds don't have super attention spans for things they're not interested in to begin with. We did pumpkin carving with the grands yesterday. Aubrey only wanted to make hers a kitty by drawing on it and she was finished.....content to sit and watch Kayla do hers.

    Evan on the other hand will be 5 in Jan and has me quite worried. He can't dress himself. (could be because he flat out refused to wear clothing until this year) He doesn't know a single color, shape, number, letter, how to count, say his alphabet, or even his full name. You can just barely understand his speech, um well honestly most of the time you can't understand it. I see Kalya working with him like older sibs do....and it is not clicking at all.....nada, nothing but a blank stare. He didn't have a clue any more than Brandon (19 mos) did when it came to the pumpkins. Actually other than being potty trained for most things I'd put him developmentally about age 2. He wasn't potty trained until recently either. He doesn't follow direction worth a hoot........and then we get to deal with the destructive/violent behavior whenever he's in the mood. (one of many reasons katie is back in the motel)

    For Evan we're hoping there is an open head start spot when his birth certificate arrives. It's not going to do him any good for kindergarden.......Katie and I both know it. We're hoping to get him evaled via the school that way. Which we will back up by having him evaled by a neuropsychologist on top of it to make sure nothing is missed.

    But as you can see this is drastically different from a 4 yr old who sounds like she doesn't get the point to naptime and may get bored an wander around the class. I wouldn't worry about her at this point. I'd just reinforce classroom rules with her by talking about them at home and help her practice what they're working on in class.
  4. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Yeah, I am a bit stymied with the whole attention thing because she has always been my pretty laid back kid. She was perfectly satisfied to sit with me on my bed for hours and hours...still is. Just now she pretends she is driving the race cars...lol. We have to buckle up and the dolls go in the back seat in carseats to be safe ya know!

    She has never been one to be interested in video games or stuff like that. Much more into her dolls and imaginary play. She has never been good at coloring either. She does it very faintly with just a few strokes on a picture and thinks she is done. I have a feeling writing is going to be a problem too for her. She is very good at large muscle stuff like kicking balls, running, skipping, hopping on one foot, and has been for a long time. I think I noticed her kicking a ball when she was over a year and was shocked because she had just started to walk well. She is learning all these dance steps without a problem. I think its the small motor things that get her. Pencil grips.

    Well...she is getting the Vreader and Mobigo for Xmas so maybe they will help her. At least maybe she will like them...lol.
  5. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Well just watch her then. Some kids have more trouble "getting" the fine motor skills than the gross motor skills. Aubrey was the opposite. At 18 mos she held a pencil like a pro and was drawing circles.......but was way behind in her large motor skill development. She had just mastered walking. Now she's got them both on the same level it seems.

    Keyanna is more active and imaginative. I was that way as a kid. Took me a big to see the point of having to sit in a classroom and follow rules when all I wanted to do was get up and play. lmao
  6. muttmeister

    muttmeister Well-Known Member

    She is 4. Four year olds have not yet developed small muscle control. THat is what is so stupid about trying to push kids into doing things early: they aren't physically or mentally ready. You can encourage her small muscle control development by encouraging her to color ( it is normal to scribble first before coloring objects and coloring in the line usually doesn't happen till ages 5 or 6), working with things like Legos, stringing beads, sorting colored mini marshmallows, using Lincoln logs, stringing Cheerios, etc., etc. The kinds of things kids used to do at kindergarten (and most of them should still be doing).
  7. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    Has anyone asked her "why" she is suddenly roaming at rest time? She always seems to be so precocious...perhaps she may give a response that makes sense...to her. Is her mat located in the middle of the class? Perhaps she needs to be placed at the end corner so she doesn't see or hear so many other kids. Is it possible that she needs a potty break before rest time? Could be. Do they have recess right before rest time? Maybe she isn't transitioning well. Is she allowed to have a soft toy or a "kinky" during nap time if that provides a more serene environment?

    Based on similar circumstances in the past I doubt that a good talking to or a form of punishment is the answer. Of course all kids are different. Personally I always feel sorry for the younger kids in class. No matter how intelligent a child may be...there are developmental stages that sometimes just aren't reached on a date set by the school boards. A child may be "sharp as a tack" and "smart as a whip"
    but still being set up for failure due to early problems adjusting to school. She is
    so totally used to being loved and seen (rightfully) as a "winner", that her small motor skills deficits etc. could set her up for a difficult child lable when it is unwarranted.

    It may sound extreme to say so but since it is early in the year I think she should be tested for readiness. Being held back later can easily impact her self esteem.
    Readiness testing can show that a child is "gifted" but still needs an extra year to
    adapt to big girl/boy school. Working at home with a young child can be helpful
    but it also can heighten anxiety.

    I completely understand how much she is loved. I'm just wondering if it might not
    be wise to invest in readiness testing now. If she needs another year to mature it
    isn't the end of the world at that age. on the other hand if she is held back to repeat a grade or
    gets the concept that she is not as smart as her classmates it can have lifelong implications. been there done that. Good luck. DDD
  8. hearts and roses

    hearts and roses Mind Reader

    Janet, I completely agree with DDD's recommendation to have her tested for readiness. I wish I had done that with my easy child when we moved from NY to CT. Because she had completed kindergarten, they naturally enrolled her as a 1st grader. Thing was, she wasn't ready for it and we ended up holding her back in 2nd grade. It wasn't a big deal, she simply wasn't ready and each year for two years, the school kept on pushing her to fall in line with the other students in her classes. I later discovered that most of the kids in her classes were between 7months to 1 year in age ahead of her - no wonder she wasn't on the same level as her peers. When we held her back, it was an amazing thing! She immediately was at home and did wonderful! And, incidentally, it wasn't until after the evaluation process and retention was in place that the principal of the school said to me, "It's too bad you didn't request some readiness testing when you moved her before placing her in 1st grade..." Well, duh.

    Suggest the readiness testing now - don't waste anymore time. These schools and their teachers have deadlines and quotas to meet and they want kids who easily conform to classroom schedules, etc. If Keyena is being singled out as being a nuisance, you want to clear up any misconceptions about her behavior being deliberate and I would also want to avoid her being labeled at such a young age. Even if it is an attentional issue - it may be an attentional issue in relation to her age against her classmate's ages; it may be that she's just in with the wrong kids.
  9. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Thats what they did at dance...the readiness thing. Ms Donna tried out ALL the 3's and 4s together as a group in the very beginning for about 6 weeks. She only had some very late 3's (like were having birthdays by the end of September) and 4's that had turned 4 by say November of the last year. Big age difference though at that age. Almost a years difference but they would actually be in the same class in Pre-K and onward in school because of cut-off dates.

    Those late 3's and early 4's made it into one class and the very late 4's made it into a class with the early 5 year olds unless someone was very precocious. Some of the early 4's and mid 4's have a class just to themselves because they are basically on target. That is where Keyana is. She has about 6 kids in her class. None are the younger ones who just turned 4 during the summer, well except her who turned 4 in June. Most turned 4 in May or April.
  10. Shari

    Shari IsItFridayYet?

    My oldest brother (who is 50, so this was a while ago) was the world's neatest colorer.

    Until he started Kindergarten.

    My mom has pictures he colored as a 4 year old. Perfect. In the lines, colors are accurate, etc. Then she has pictures in his scrapbook of some of his kindergarten work, and its just a bunch of random scribbles all over the sheets.

    His explanation? That's how all the other kids did it! lol

    Anyway, I kinda find that story humerous...and...at least that aspect of Keyana is probably pretty normal. I wouldnt' push her, either. But the readiness testing makes a lot of sense.
  11. Shari

    Shari IsItFridayYet?

    With all that said, tho, Janet, go with your gut!

    I knew something was off with Wee when he was tiny, but I easily let folks talk me out of it. Also, of course, to those who saw just snippets of him, he didn't look that off, if at all.

    Yeah, well...wonder what they think, now?
  12. KTMom91

    KTMom91 Well-Known Member

    I would ask her why she wanders at nap time. Maybe the school could come up with a quiet alternative for her, like sitting on her mat looking at books or something like that.

    The longer I substitute, the more "young" kindergarteners I'm seeing, and I don't like it. I think it sets them up for failure when they aren't ready, either for the classroom situation or the more intense academics now in place. I subbed in a full-day kindergarten not too long ago, and one little guy fell asleep over his writing. I was afraid he'd fall off the chair.

    I found a list of things kindergarteners were expected to know when entering kindergarten, that was given to my mom when I started kindergarten a million years ago. We were to know our first and last names, our colors, numbers to ten, the alphabet, how to tie our shoes, how to use the toilet and put our clothes back together properly... and these are all things the teachers work on in kindergarten now. I have subbed in classes where kids didn't know their formal names, because they'd always been called by a nickname. That's pretty sad, in my opinion, after five years of living, to not know that your name is Emmanuel because everybody calls you Manny.
  13. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Honestly, I think we're setting kids up for high risk for failure to begin with in many areas.

    Our SD has switched to all day kindergarden. Children are expected to know how to count to at least 10 and recognize those numbers. They are expected to know their alphabet as well as recognize the letters both upper and lower case. They expect them to know shapes and colors and to be able to write their names.

    Why? Because by not long after Halloween they start learning to read.

    Just because a child has the :"potential" to read at age 2 doesn't mean they should be taught to read at age 2. Know what I mean??

    Darrin is no slacker in academics, which is good since the school went super fast and I know at least a third of his class could just not keep up despite having an excellent teacher. Although he was frustrated to literal tears over adding and subtracting at first.

    Many SDs (ours included obviously) just assume all toddlers receive preschool education thanks to Head Start and the Yuppies of the 80's and 90's all sticking their kids into preschool by age 3. I guess all those kids who's parents make too much for Head Start yet not enough to afford private preschool are just out of luck.

    And in my opinion such an academic set up doesn't allow for appropriate age maturity either. These are 5 yrs olds and some are still 4 going on 5.

    easy child was more than academically ready for kindergarden by age 5 (july birthday). She'd had 2 yrs of private preschool plus practiced at home. The kid ate the stuff up....to her it was "play". But maturity wise she was not ready for kindergarden at age 5. If you so much as looked at her funny she'd burst into tears among other things that showed me she wasn't quite there yet. Thankfully though Ohio has an old law on the books that no child legally has to start school until the age of 6. They dont legally even have to attend kindergarden. They can go straight to first grade if they can meet the guidelines. So I held her out a year. She started kindergarden at age 6 and did wonderfully. Travis believe it or not was ready by 5. lol And so was Nichole. And they were the difficult children. lmao;)

    Each child is different. Each progress at their own rate........and I honestly think we're expecting too much out of 5 yr olds.

    Darrin who is so much his mother's son it's a riot.........had a daycare worker once (at age 3) tell him a picture he colored was ugly because he scribbled. It so hurt him that he will still to this day spend for ever on a coloring page to make certain every part of it is colored in perfectly. Kids do things for the darndest reasons that in their young minds make perfect sense. He flat out refused "quiet time" in preschool for the 1st few days because he hadn't taken a nap since he was 2 yrs old and "only babies take naps" Once easy child explained it was to rest so he would have more energy to play he was all for it. lol

    Given family history I'd watch but if she's given no signs other than this up until now it's probably not really a big deal. Aubrey was delayed in every single developmental milestone except fine motor, seriously delayed including speech and walking. Nichole is watching for signs of any issues but not overly worried as it seems she is now doing fine.
  14. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I talked to her today and cant figure out what the nap time issue is. Claims she just doesnt want to nap. She hasnt taken a nap unless sick since she was 2 either. I just explained to her that she didnt have to sleep, she just had to rest and stay on her mat until the teacher told her to get up...we shall see...lol.

    I did find out she is fascinated with the alphabet toy I bought her and has been playing with it constantly since I gave it to her Saturday evening. It shows the letter, says the letter, says how the letter is pronounced and then shows the kid how to draw the letter and they can follow along on the electronic pad with an attached pen and follow the lights to make the letter and it tells them they do it right. Bells and whistles of course.

    As we went to dance today she saw a building that had a K in the name and she said...LOOK Grandma...that store has a K in it just like my name does! She has recognized her name for over a year but couldnt write it or anything. She sang it to a song I made up for her. I thought she was doing good to do that...lol.

    Here in Pre-K they have a ton of things they have to learn. They have to learn all their letters upper case and lower case. All letter sounds. Numbers to 100. Full name. (She has that one down) If she has to learn her address she is screwed...lol. Which one? Same with phone number...uhhhhh again...which one? Poor child has 3 addresses and about 5 phone numbers. Has to know all colors, shapes ( I dont know which ones though), how to put on clothes and take them off. She can do most of that. She cant tie shoes but we are working on that. I think any girl who can put on a dance outfit and then go pee and redress should make it for putting on clothes...lmao. Tights are a pain. By the end of the year she should know at least 20 sight words.

    Kindergartners have to know like 100 sight words! I am astounded.
  15. hearts and roses

    hearts and roses Mind Reader

    I once was locked in the closet by my kindergarten teacher because I refused to lay down on the mat on the floor like all the other kindergarteners. I had my reasons - I was afraid I would have an asthma attach! Hahaha - I can totally see that wandering around a classroom would be way more inviting than taking a nap.

    I agree that we're setting up our kids to fail. We put so much pressure on them at an age when they are still developing in ways that make it difficult for them to learn so much in such a small amount of time. I hate the expectations SD's have now! I remember my exh lecturing me about teaching easy child her letters and number when she was only 2 years old! I told him to shove it. However, I did go and buy flash cards and hung them all over her closet for fun, but it wasn't like I sat with her and made her memorize them! I think exposing them to educational materials is fine, but not in a forceful way.
  16. Shari

    Shari IsItFridayYet?


    Wee isn't ready for kindergaten in NC. He recognizes the alphabet most days, but not all. Does not know all letter sounds consistently, tho getting better. Does not know his full name. Does know his address and my cell phone number on most days. Most.
    Knows colors and shapes, but can't dress himself if it involves buttons. He had learned to tie his shoes, but he's lost that, too. And he might know 20 sight words. Again, might.

    How sad.
  17. lmf64

    lmf64 New Member

    I realize I'm getting in to this late in the game, but like everyone else has said I don't see any problems. My nephew, who I take care of daily, turned 4 the end of July and he can't sit for circle time either. I started taking him to the library for story time last year to get him used to it, but he still has a hard time with it. He wouldn't lay down if you paid him. He took a daily nap up until last winter, when I decided he was done with them. His sister on the other hand just turned 2 the end of September and hasn't taken naps regularly since this spring. Nephew started preschool, 3 days a week for 2 hours a day this fall. He has his kindergarten readiness evaluation next month. He will fly through it, but the poor teacher will be pulling her hair out because this kid cannot sit still. He's a boy. He's 4. He's going to be active. Keyana is going to do just fine.
  18. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    I never got the point of forced naps at school. Kiddo usually didn't need them unless she had run herself into the ground playing, if that wasn't the case a nap just messed up her sleep schedule, but she's like me, an insomniac that doesn't require as much sleep as her peers. School was happy enough to just have her lay quietly and color or read.
  19. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I dont think we had kindergarten in school when I was young. I remember going to pre-school at a church for a couple of hours a week...like maybe 3 days a week for a couple of hours. Then I went to half day kindergarten at another church kindergarten the next year. We started first grade when we were six. I know I was a late six because my birthday was in January so that made me later. My boys...well the two younger ones at least were early 5's. They have summer birthdays so they were barely 5 when they hit kindergarten.

    We cant base anything on Cory because all we did with him before starting school was behavior based. We were absolutely astounded that he picked up school so easily. By the middle of kindergarten he was reading first grade books. We didnt even know he knew his alphabet going in because we had worked so hard on behaviors prior...lol.
  20. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    I'm betting that she is smart enough to use CPS. If you say "are you still having a problem resting quietly at nap time?" and
    she responds "yes".....then, lol, like Ross Greene...."What's Up?" Then on to the "what solution can you think of for this problem?" ;) Chances are Keyana will say something that indicates that she understands her friends and teacher need a rest even though she doesn't. If all goes well she might say "maybe I could just sit quietly on my mat and do x until my friends are ready to get up".

    I'm curious if it will work, lol. DDD