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<blockquote data-quote="Allan-Matlem" data-source="post: 70089" data-attributes="member: 10"><p>Hi,</p><p>Thanks for the link. I will share it with others. There has been discussion on a Jewish site. No 1 below is pretty anti the 12 steps and has shared various links and books ( I only used the internet to check out the books ) I am interested in your comments. My response is no 3</p><p>Thanks </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> 1 They follow, advocate, and believe in 12 stepping, not as the cure-all though, because they believe you are sick for the rest of your life with these "illnesses." People should be forewarned that if they get involved with their 12 Step approach, they will be labeled a "recovering addict" forever after. The word "recovery" is used in a way unique to 12 steppers so that you never actually recover as in the conventional sense of the word, but you are perpetually sick. </p><p></p><p>This is a website which shows the fallacies of the 12 step program: <a href="http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-drydrunk.html" target="_blank">http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-drydrunk.html</a> </p><p></p><p>Some books that are a small voice within the seemingly universal promotion of 12 stepping for everything that ails you are: "Nobody's Victim - Freedom from Therapy and Recovery" by McCullough, "I'm Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional" by Wendy Kaminer, "A Nation of Victims", "The Myth of Mental Illness," "the Real 13th Step" and "Beyond Recovery" etc. </p><p></p><p>2 The only part of the link's diatribe that was scientifically relevant was when it quoted Harvard Medical School: at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated another estimate is that one recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution. Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3. (See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).) As you can see, this information is about 12-years-old, and I wonder what more recent studies say. Whats more, even this study states the importance of support. What if you dont have a supportive spouse? Many alcoholics dont have any supportwhich brings us back to the importance of AA</p><p></p><p>3 I have looked at the links, checked out about the books and like most thing in life their is some truth in all approaches, but no approach is perfect and it is up to the individual and his therapist if he needs one to find what is the best fit for him. For some the addiction may be a bad habit and not really symptomatic of any underlying factors such as depression, unhealthy life style, bad company, bad choices, being unfullfilled - a cheftza needing to be entertained or being made to feel alive with drink , drugs and maybe also the social scene that goes with it. So being ' dry drunk 'and not dealing with the underlying causes makes relapsing into ' drink' quite possible. Some people need to find new friends and support groups provide this and the support and experience to cope and learn a new way of life. From what I read about the book the 13 th step , is that the 12 steps does not go far enough and a person may need more than a support group , but individual therapy etc. In the 12 steps , in my humble opinion there seems to be the conceptual problem of not being able to know and understand the power of prayer, the help we get from heaven and yet at the same time being confidant and believing in our willpower and efforts we make, we do not ' fear', believe in our abilities, we go into war believing in our abilities , that we can win and at the same time we know that it is the partnership with God that is the secret to our success.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Allan-Matlem, post: 70089, member: 10"] Hi, Thanks for the link. I will share it with others. There has been discussion on a Jewish site. No 1 below is pretty anti the 12 steps and has shared various links and books ( I only used the internet to check out the books ) I am interested in your comments. My response is no 3 Thanks 1 They follow, advocate, and believe in 12 stepping, not as the cure-all though, because they believe you are sick for the rest of your life with these "illnesses." People should be forewarned that if they get involved with their 12 Step approach, they will be labeled a "recovering addict" forever after. The word "recovery" is used in a way unique to 12 steppers so that you never actually recover as in the conventional sense of the word, but you are perpetually sick. This is a website which shows the fallacies of the 12 step program: [url="http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-drydrunk.html"]http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-drydrunk.html[/url] Some books that are a small voice within the seemingly universal promotion of 12 stepping for everything that ails you are: "Nobody's Victim - Freedom from Therapy and Recovery" by McCullough, "I'm Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional" by Wendy Kaminer, "A Nation of Victims", "The Myth of Mental Illness," "the Real 13th Step" and "Beyond Recovery" etc. 2 The only part of the link's diatribe that was scientifically relevant was when it quoted Harvard Medical School: at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated another estimate is that one recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution. Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3. (See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).) As you can see, this information is about 12-years-old, and I wonder what more recent studies say. Whats more, even this study states the importance of support. What if you dont have a supportive spouse? Many alcoholics dont have any supportwhich brings us back to the importance of AA 3 I have looked at the links, checked out about the books and like most thing in life their is some truth in all approaches, but no approach is perfect and it is up to the individual and his therapist if he needs one to find what is the best fit for him. For some the addiction may be a bad habit and not really symptomatic of any underlying factors such as depression, unhealthy life style, bad company, bad choices, being unfullfilled - a cheftza needing to be entertained or being made to feel alive with drink , drugs and maybe also the social scene that goes with it. So being ' dry drunk 'and not dealing with the underlying causes makes relapsing into ' drink' quite possible. Some people need to find new friends and support groups provide this and the support and experience to cope and learn a new way of life. From what I read about the book the 13 th step , is that the 12 steps does not go far enough and a person may need more than a support group , but individual therapy etc. In the 12 steps , in my humble opinion there seems to be the conceptual problem of not being able to know and understand the power of prayer, the help we get from heaven and yet at the same time being confidant and believing in our willpower and efforts we make, we do not ' fear', believe in our abilities, we go into war believing in our abilities , that we can win and at the same time we know that it is the partnership with God that is the secret to our success. [/QUOTE]
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