Power struggles

WiseChoices

Well-Known Member
I am listening to a lot of YouTube videos on boundaries and how to enforce them. There are several good channels about narcissistic abuse which is what I think is happening here in my home. I have increasingly stopped being narcissistic supply and daughter doesn't like it.

She now talks to hub the way she used to talk to me and leaves me out of the conversation. I accept this. I don't butt in, I don't enter the conversation even when it's something as pleasing as her getting a good grade. If she wants to tell me, she can speak to me directly. I am happy her and hub are better because they used to have horrible relationship. He used to be her bad guy. Now it's me. LOL.
 

BusynMember1

Well-Known Member
Wise, I just learned that with Kay at least... the more I enforced a boundary, the sneakier she got. There was a no illegal drugs house rule but she either disregarded it (and I did check her room) or got high outside and came home wasted. So she didn't keep that boundary. In her own way, she did what she liked.

Definitely enforce boundaries. You have to for your sanity. But that means that crossing a line has a clear consequence that we can not break. To me that was the hard part. I would give second, third and fourth chances. Finally we moved her out by buying her a house and she blew that to the moon, did nothing to pay for or maintain this house. We finally had to sell it. But we still wanted to keep her from being homeless. We felt maybe a house had been too much responsibility so we bought her a small mobile home in a nicer park and all Lee and Kay had to pay was $300 month in lot fee. They had that or we let them do chores for us and we paid them for the chores. But they never paid and they fought outdoors and that also went to pot (no pun intended).

We continued to help with housing...apartments. Nothing worked out. Now when we stopped paying, they were evicted.

What a disaster. We have little left for retirement, and our daughter will be homeless anyway. Did I mention that she cut too?

I guess this rambling post is just a vent and to show you that your struggle is not yours alone and that there are no pat answers. For us, Kay could not keep living with us so we did things that hurt us both just to make sure that our ungrateful daughter was not homeless. I look back and my head hurts.

But it WAS easier to deal with her when she lived apart from us.

Do not buy your daughter a house, but if you can find another place for her to live I believe it will be much easier on you. I would have been the Kay Police had she lived with me. Her father too. We needed separation. badly And it was still a huge stress but at least we did not worry that she was bringing illicit drugs into our house or that she would bring shady or dangerous people into our home. And we could not have just stood by as we have younger kids

On employment, we tried to get Kay to want to be gainfully employed. We felt that by setting her up with a nice lifestyle and expecting her to pay a portion of the bills, she would work. Kay did not get jobs.

Kay often said that if we stopped "being good parents", which meant supporting her, then she would live under a bridge and become a prostitute. This terrified us. If you knew Kay....you would also know she meant it. And would Lee stop her? Nope. Lee would gladly take in the money.

In reality, because of our fears, Kay could control us....and did.

Well, I am done. Please find peace in what you do. And please, as they say in Al Anon, let go of your daughter's outcome. Step 3.

Hugs and blessings.
 

WiseChoices

Well-Known Member
Wise, I just learned that with Kay at least... the more I enforced a boundary, the sneakier she got. There was a no illegal drugs house rule but she either disregarded it (and I did check her room) or got high outside and came home wasted. So she didn't keep that boundary. In her own way, she did what she liked.

Definitely enforce boundaries. You have to for your sanity. But that means that crossing a line has a clear consequence that we can not break. To me that was the hard part. I would give second, third and fourth chances. Finally we moved her out by buying her a house and she blew that to the moon, did nothing to pay for or maintain this house. We finally had to sell it. But we still wanted to keep her from being homeless. We felt maybe a house had been too much responsibility so we bought her a small mobile home in a nicer park and all Lee and Kay had to pay was $300 month in lot fee. They had that or we let them do chores for us and we paid them for the chores. But they never paid and they fought outdoors and that also went to pot (no pun intended).

We continued to help with housing...apartments. Nothing worked out. Now when we stopped paying, they were evicted.

What a disaster. We have little left for retirement, and our daughter will be homeless anyway. Did I mention that she cut too?

I guess this rambling post is just a vent and to show you that your struggle is not yours alone and that there are no pat answers. For us, Kay could not keep living with us so we did things that hurt us both just to make sure that our ungrateful daughter was not homeless. I look back and my head hurts.

But it WAS easier to deal with her when she lived apart from us.

Do not buy your daughter a house, but if you can find another place for her to live I believe it will be much easier on you. I would have been the Kay Police had she lived with me. Her father too. We needed separation. badly And it was still a huge stress but at least we did not worry that she was bringing illicit drugs into our house or that she would bring shady or dangerous people into our home. And we could not have just stood by as we have younger kids

On employment, we tried to get Kay to want to be gainfully employed. We felt that by setting her up with a nice lifestyle and expecting her to pay a portion of the bills, she would work. Kay did not get jobs.

Kay often said that if we stopped "being good parents", which meant supporting her, then she would live under a bridge and become a prostitute. This terrified us. If you knew Kay....you would also know she meant it. And would Lee stop her? Nope. Lee would gladly take in the money.

In reality, because of our fears, Kay could control us....and did.

Well, I am done. Please find peace in what you do. And please, as they say in Al Anon, let go of your daughter's outcome. Step 3.

Hugs and blessings.
Thank you, Busy. I am facing exactly the dilemma that you describe. Do I apply more control/boundaries or do I give more independence ? To me, independence and freedom come at the cost of increased responsibility. I cannot just hand out independence and freedom like candy.

What I am currently doing is accepting that daughter does not want a relationship with me right now. I have to stop chasing her. Being away for a month has made it clear. She keeps saying that everything is none of my business. Ok. I won't ask. And I won't help, either. If she asks for a favor, I will ask for something in return. Because I have to apply self respect. I cannot continue to give and show cooperation and love when I don't get that back. When it's not reciprocated. I would love to give more independence if I saw any effort on daughter'' part : if she helped around the house willingly, if I saw cooperation, if I saw kindness. I don't see either one of these things. Yes, there is temporary kindness when she wants something but nothing lasting. She does not care about me right now. She only cares about herself and through that is tying my hands. because giving in this situation diminishes my own self worth.

I hear you loud and clear. I do see how control backfires. I do see how control can add to a young person making the decision to use drugs. "I will show you" But - if a person's thinking is such that they will use drugs as a reaction to someone else's behavior , then the wish to use drugs was already there to begin with. Everything else is an excuse. Because mentally healthy people do not stick a needle in their arm as a reaction to Mom pissing them off. I am exaggerating . Smoking pot is not the same as heroin use , of course, and I do need to stay hopeful for my daughter .

The therapist my son sees whom I saw a few times before he did, strongly suggested independence for my son. She is the one who suggested we sign the car over to son. Which meant all expenses and all legal responsibility for the car now were with him. It was an excellent plan. He had holes in tires, had to get oil changes etc BUT he had worked before, he had a savings account from when he had worked and saved, and when he ran out of money, he got a pizza delivery job and made the money he needed to operate the car . The idea being here that independence creates consequences and that is how people learn.

Now, he let a friend drive the car. They were both high. And the friend totalled the car .Hence my son finds himself in the position he is in and moved back home.

With daughter, I don't see how we can sign the car over unless she has a job lined up. She doesn't even have enough for the title transfer and I won't pay for that. I am already handing her a $3000 used car. She has to bring something to the table.

You have been through so, so much with Kay. You tried everything. You were very generous in your effort to help and none of the love and care was returned to you. My heart hurts for you. The relationship was reduced to what she could get out of you and when you stopped, she cut you off. That is incredibly painful to realize. And I see it with my daughter as well. The writing is on the wall.

Her best friend has always been a negative influence on her. When the friend was given her Mother'a Prozac, my daughter wanted Prozac. When friend needed glasses, daughter wanted glasses . Another friend was a bad cutter had welts of scars all over his body, daughter cut and started glorifying cutting. Best friend vapes heavy duty nicotine. Daughter starts vaping. Best friend drinks and smokes pot, daughter follows suit. And with all those vices, I don't want to enable her. So I have to pull back. Everything I do for her leaves more money on her pocket to buy vices.

I do see that she needs to get moved out. O don't know whether that's realistic before she graduates in May. I wish hub was supportive of her going back to dorms. Then again, grades suffered in dorms, she couldn't get out of bed , she skipped classes all the time.

You see right: there are no pat answers. Only lessons . Our children are our biggest teachers. My narcissist daughter is teaching me how to focus on me, how to set and enforce boundaries and how to get comfortable with being uncomfortable which brings growth.
 

BusynMember1

Well-Known Member
It is truly a struggle when kids won't launch and blame us and don't want to have anything to do with us. When I am asked how many kids I have, I feel like two is a more honest answer than three. Kay is never here and won't come back without our paying her to come. We won't.

It's a very real grief.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
YouTube videos on boundaries
It sounds like you've landed back solidly on your feet and feel in a command situation, which you are defining as in command of yourself, only. Everything you write sounds reasonable and realistic.

Are there any YouTube presenters that you are finding especially helpful for our situation?
 
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WiseChoices

Well-Known Member
Tonight, I feel absolutely sick about everything. I know I need to set these boundaries, I know I could not have worked with that therapist in terms of billing and getting my daughter a chance to actually get better. And I also understand that she does not understand where I am coming from and is hurting. She feels controlled . Today she said she could drive herself to school . She did fine with it while I was away for a month. She is a good driver. I know she wants to. She wants that independence and I want to give it to her , but am not seeing any cooperation from her of how that could happen. My friend suggested I lert her drive herself to her own appointments. I would love to. My friend said she should pay gas for her own errands. And there is the Crux: she doesn't have an income. And when presented with an opportunity to make a little money by doing my hair , by picking up one of my jobs while I was away, she makes poor choices with that money buying vaping supplies (which are very expensive) and "stuff". I would love to talk to her about these things and right now there is such a communication break down.

How can I be told that her mental health is none of my business but she needs a ride there or at least my car, and I have to supply the gas, and buy the medications? By default that is my business. I have never asked what happens in the sessions. I have been respectful .

My friend also suggested joint therapy .I would be happy to do that . I don't even know how to ask her . I doubt she would be willing.

I feel heart sick. Just broken. I miss my daughter and how we used to be so much. I have told her this and she seems to numb to me. This started when she went off to college and hooked up with a girl and they got very very close very quickly. And daughter told me that she threw me under the bus. I heard about that about narcissists today - how people get discarded. I just don't understand how I got discarded .I was told I was her best friend . She said she did not know how to live without me at school. And now she can't say I love you or hug me? This is before any boundaries I set. I am just crushed and still I must push on.
 

Blindsided

Face the Sun
She has never worked, is 100% dependent upon us. While I was away, she did one of my jobs for me and I paid her $20 per each (4x). She is vaping now (again her best friend does) and bought that. I will not give her an allowance at her age. She is 21. She can work. I do agree that I need to stop paying for personal items except the bare neccessities. I need to start saying no. She goes shopping with me every week and it's always "can I have this" . I will need to start saying that until I get some respect , the answer is no.

Husband does not want to send her back to dorms. It is so expensive. She is finishing up her degree. Next semester is her last. Husband thinks with tough love we can "break her" (his words). He suggested mentioning to her that I would like her to live elsewhere and he thinks that might wake her up a little .
Wise, I can see something helpful in every perspective here. Now, it's up to you to choose what you think you want to try. I wish your daughter had a job for spending money. Degree or no degree, she has to have the skills necessary in a work environment.

You are in my thoughts. If we had all the answers we seek, we wouldn't be here.

In healing
 

WiseChoices

Well-Known Member
On the way home from the gym I remembered that she has started cutting three times. And every single time I was away in Europe. I had devoted years to her prior to that first trip. She had been sick with depression. I took her to 3 different states on vacations , we had Saturday fun days with activities. I learned, slowly, to just be present and hold space for her rather than trying to change how she felt. It was difficult but I was her person and I wanted to be .

When she went to school, I wanted a break , I felt I could have a little breathing room for myself now that she was going to be busy with her adult life. I needed to break through fears of my own, like flying, like not identifying as Mother so much anymore , finding who I used to be . And so I went on my first trip, solo. And it was right before that that she met that friend and discarded me . I am not saying she pulled away some which would be normal at her age. She emotionally disconnected from me. And I am wondering now whether it was abandonment she felt. Abandonment so deep she cut. Something happened with a young man at the same time and I thought she started cutting as a result of that. I was in Europe when she called and said he broke it off (they went on 3 dates) and that she had done something bad (her words). By the time I got back 3 weeks later not only was she cutting up and down her arms , she had met a friend who had a history of it and has scars all over his body. She was glamorizing cutting.

She was stopped cutting for months before this last trip and she started again in my absence. It is clearly related to my leaving.

Is this consistent with borderline personality disorder?
 

BusynMember1

Well-Known Member
Cutting is very common for many reasons.....sexual abuse, drug addicts often cut, and all types of people who are numb cut to feel something. To feel anything.Cutting is common in borderline but it is not the only symptom in this disorder.

Borderlines tend to have multiple,intense , dysfunctional and needy relationships in which the person has overwhelming emotions and loves someone one day yet hates them the next. Suicide attempts are common with Borderline (BPD). So are eating disorders. But you can have an eating disorder, which can be very dangerous, and not have borderline. Raging is a common symptom.

The only ways your daughter can be somewhat accurately evaluated/diagnosed is by seeing a neuropsychologist (a psychologist with extra training in the brain) or a very sharp Psychiatrist (the guy with the MD.) I don't believe that psychologists, therapists, social workers or counselors are legally allowed to diagnose.

And, of course, psychiatry is an inexact science as there are no brain scans or blood tests for getting definite answers. It is the evaluators best guess. So it's iffy.

Borderline, which is also called emotional dysregulation disorder, is interesting. There are a lot of books out about it. Check the newer ones! Until a few years ago there was no cure, but DBT therapy has changed that in motivated borderlines. It can now be cured.

It is often misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder because of all the mood swings that borderlines have.

I hear your struggle. But you can do this and stand strong. Trust God and be good to yourself. We hold your hand with love.
 
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Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I copied this:

Compared with participants without a history of deliberate self-harm, self-harmers scored higher on self- and peer-report measures of borderline, schizotypal, dependent, and avoidant personality disorder symptoms and reported more symptoms of anxiety and depression. Item-level analyses indicated that peers viewed self-harmers as having strange and intense emotions and a heightened sensitivity to interpersonal rejection.

About one of every 25 members of a large group of relatively high-functioning nonclinical subjects reported a history of self-harm. Self-harmers had more symptoms of several personality disorders than non-self-harmers, and their performance across measures suggested that anxiety plays a prominent role in their psychopathology

___
This is interesting because it says one in twenty five of normal-seeming, high functioning people cut and the cutting is not associated with any diagnosis.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I wonder why we do this to ourselves. That your daughter began to cut, and may have felt a sense of abandonment when you went to Europe, happened. It is an age-appropriate thing that adult children go away to college and that their mothers have a life that is not 100 percent tethered to them. What would you have done differently? Kept her home forever. Would you have never worked, never traveled, in order to have prevented her to feel and to live her real life? All of us have a real life, and our spiritual lives require that we live real lives, and by this we gradually become aware of our soul's purpose.. People that do not live their destinies, die unrealized. There are not good or bad destinies. Each of us has our own true purpose. To keep our children like hot house flowers so that they do not suffer pain means that they never grow. It means we stunt them. Is that what you have preferred that you do?

I believe that you did the right thing. Every single thing you do to allow her to be independent and self-reliant is what she deserves. And so do you.

She is not responsible for your pain. And you are not responsible for hers.

Personally I think her diagnosis is the least important thing here. And yes psychologists and social workers and marriage and family counselors can legally diagnosis.
 

ChickPea

Well-Known Member
Wise, my daughter cuts, too. She's done it off and on and has been doing it in the past year. We've talked about it before the in past, but not recently.

You said your daughter cut while you were gone, which is interesting. I don't know if one really truly has one to do with the other, but your leaving isn't abnormal; the cutting is. She should talk with her therapist about that.

Reading about how you miss/mourn your relationship with her - how it used to be - tugged at me a little. I'm sure that's very difficult for you, and you're grieving it. Forgive me if I didn't catch it - but did you say that you're in therapy as well?
 

WiseChoices

Well-Known Member
Wise, my daughter cuts, too. She's done it off and on and has been doing it in the past year. We've talked about it before the in past, but not recently.

You said your daughter cut while you were gone, which is interesting. I don't know if one really truly has one to do with the other, but your leaving isn't abnormal; the cutting is. She should talk with her therapist about that.

Reading about how you miss/mourn your relationship with her - how it used to be - tugged at me a little. I'm sure that's very difficult for you, and you're grieving it. Forgive me if I didn't catch it - but did you say that you're in therapy as well?
No, I am not in therapy at the moment. This is very codependent of me but we have only a limited number of therapists here locally. The good one I used off and on my son is now seeing, so I won't see her. And I have hesitated to seek someone new because I was leaving them open for my daughter to find someone first. I need to quit that thought and find me someone. I do need support. I am starting to feel overwhelmed with it all. Thank you for the prompt!
 

WiseChoices

Well-Known Member
I wonder why we do this to ourselves. That your daughter began to cut, and may have felt a sense of abandonment when you went to Europe, happened. It is an age-appropriate thing that adult children go away to college and that their mothers have a life that is not 100 percent tethered to them. What would you have done differently? Kept her home forever. Would you have never worked, never traveled, in order to have prevented her to feel and to live her real life? All of us have a real life, and our spiritual lives require that we live real lives, and by this we gradually become aware of our soul's purpose.. People that do not live their destinies, die unrealized. There are not good or bad destinies. Each of us has our own true purpose. To keep our children like hot house flowers so that they do not suffer pain means that they never grow. It means we stunt them. Is that what you have preferred that you do?

I believe that you did the right thing. Every single thing you do to allow her to be independent and self-reliant is what she deserves. And so do you.

She is not responsible for your pain. And you are not responsible for hers.

Personally I think her diagnosis is the least important thing here. And yes psychologists and social workers and marriage and family counselors can legally diagnosis.
Thank you, Copa. I am doing it to myself this tossing and turning, overanalyzing, trying to figure out why and what's going on .I think I feel if I had the "truth" I could accept it better.
You are absolutely right. The diagnosis does not matter. What has happenes has happened. I know I did not do anything harmful by going on my trips. I am not so much second guessing that decision than trying to figure out how it goes along with daughter's reactions. She is not telling me how she really feels. I think if I knew that her abandonment issues (if that's what it was ) were because she has xyz mental illness , I could understand how she did this 180 on me.

And , yes, ultimately , it does not matter. It is what it is and I cannot change it. I will continue to do what I need to do for myself which is to go on my trips, to find myself more and more, seek to be happy no matter what.

I think I want to make triple sure that I am being mentally healthy and not contributing to someone else's suffering. Am punishing her for not being interested in me (or my interpretation of that) by solely focusing on me and not asking any questions anymore or am I responding appropriately to preserve my self respect? I already know the answer. I know my daughter is mentally ill. I know my enmeshment with her when she was younger contributed to some of her difficulties . I know I need to pull back in order to survive this. I know I am doing the right thing . It just hurts so much and I think I am attempting to distract myself from the pain by wanting to understand how and why.

Before my trip when we attempted to talk, daughter was upset with me and said that I bring so much compassion to my sponsees but not to her. And I said compassion is encouragement and understanding. And that I do try to encourage her and get rebuffed. And that I can only understand her if she tells me how she feels. That my sponsees want my suggestions and happily take them.
 

RN0441

100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
Wise

I am sorry that you don't have the relationship with your daughter that you want to have but maybe that is how it is right now. It doesn't mean that it will always be this way.

I always fantasized about having a daughter and how fun it would be to share clothes and make up etc. One of my good friends has a daughter and was so thrilled when she was born. Her daughter has always been very nasty to her as long as I can remember. In fact when my friend was in the hospital for a week days to have a 5 pound tumor on her ovary removed that could have been cancerous, her daughter didn't even come to visit her. That is only one of many very hurtful things that her daughter has done. My friend loves her daughter so much and is so good to her and begs for her love and companionship. The girl is very smart and is working on her masters and pays her own way and has always worked and been extremely responsible. I don't get the reason why she treats her mother like that. I just don't get it.

I do think as your daughter matures she will become close to you again. If she once was then it will happen again. If it were me, I'd give her the space she is saying she wants. Don't blame yourself. It is probably just something she is going through and it will probably take WAY longer than you think it should. She is very young.
 
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