psychiatric dr appointment today:(

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by gwenny, Mar 16, 2009.

  1. gwenny

    gwenny New Member

    Well we had an appointment today with the new psychiatric dr. He is stating that it sounds like onset childhood antisocial personality disorder!! he say's that there is no iep available for antisocial personality disorder. There is no treatment for antisocial personality disorder. He stated that it really becomes a situation for the law!! How can this be? no treatment and he says that there is no conscience and no willingness to help themselves.

    Wow I feel so lost even more now. He said they will hold him in this therapeutic group home and the psychiatric dr will see him every monday. He recomended reading the sociopath next door. difficult child was very forthcoming and seemed almost proud of what he has done. He thinks he is only going to be at the group home for a week(more like 90 days) so this is probably why the good reports are coming in. He will find out tomorrow that he will be there for the long length of time and go to school there.

    My concern is if there is no treatment what do we do? If the dr's can't help him we have to have this difficult child become a criminal?? something just don't sound right!! Where do we place a child who has this horrible diagnosis if the dr's cant help him and he can't live at home? No professional can tell us the answer to this question other than let the police be involved or turn him over to the state and face charges of neglect and abandoment.

    This is so horrible!!

    Thank you all for being here I don't know what I would have done without all of your support.
  2. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I am probably going to be in the minority here and agree with this psychiatrist. While I dont know your stepson personally, I have read your posts and he does sound like a budding ASPD. CD often does lead into this. There is treatment for CD but the person has to want that treatment and normally they dont because they think they have no problems. The legal system will come into play because normally the person ends up breaking the law because they dont think laws apply to them.

    My son had a psychiatrist tell me that he was a budding sociopath when he was 12. I was appalled. I thought she was nuts. I went through his entire teen years searching for help with mood disorders when I now think I should have been looking for help with conduct issues. I still believe my son has bipolar of some sort but his personality disorder is his biggest issue. I think if we had addressed that CD very early on he would have maybe not had the legal issues he had as an adult...but ya never know.

    Your son is 15. Prime age for all this to come about for a teen boy. Getting him help is not going to be easy at all. If you can find something called MST therapy you might stand a chance. Im so sorry about this. He doesnt face an easy future but is that first jail sentence that makes them change. It seems to have had an effect on my son. We shall see if it is a lasting effect.
  3. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    Oh, dear.

    Is it because of his age?

    Most of the doctors I know never want to give up on anyone.

    Can't you get another opinion?

    I hate the "option" of turning him over to the state and facing charges of abandonment. NOT an option.

    I feel for you. I am so sorry. I wish I had some fantastic advice.
  4. smallworld

    smallworld Moderator

    Donna, I admit that I know nothing about antisocial personality disorder, but my gut tells me you need to find a child/adolescent psychiatrist who will dig deeper and rule out all other disorders before settling on this disorder. To me, settling on this disorder is like giving up on your difficult child -- and he's only 15. That's too young to throw in the towel. He could very well have underlying treatable disorders that are fueling what looks like antisocial personality disorder, but in actuality is not.

    In your shoes, I would find the very best child/adolescent psychiatrist in your area and bring your difficult child there for a thorough evaluation (not 15 minutes and pull out the rx pad). I know it will cost money, but we're talking about a child's life.
  5. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

  6. bran155

    bran155 Guest

    Janet, you are not in the minority here. I agree with you and the doctors. I felt the same as you did when my daughter was given the CD diagnosis. Some of you might remember a couple of years ago I posted about it and it sparked a huge deal that the mods had to control! I was in such denial as well!

    I was told the same thing gwenny, about my daughter. That the law would eventually enter my life. That there was no treatment for her, I was devastated and just did not want to believe it. I did exactly what Janet did, running myself crazy as well as all of the docs, trying to treat the BiPolar (BP) instead. My daughter has been on every medication you can think of. I, like Janet do believe my daughter has some BiPolar (BP) but that is secondary to the CD and Borderline diagnosis. They were right, my daughter has been in Juvie twice, Jail twice and is now a fugitive on the run! There is hope but only if they are willing participants in the treatment. My daughter is 18 and is still in big time denial!!!! It is very scary and hard to live with. That's not to say I think you should just give up. No one can predict the future and anything is possible. Your son could want the help somewhere down the line. And make a real effort to participate. Janet's son gives me great hope for my daughter. He is my inspiration!

    I am so sorry. I know what a blow this is, firsthand! Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.

  7. gwenny

    gwenny New Member

    Thank you all and I think that everyone who has traveled this long road always holds out for help or different diagnosis. I am just in a different position than most. I am just the stepmom who has to make the best choices for my family.

    I feel that this dr was highly recomended and does a great deal of work with anti social persons. The problem that I have is that there is no cure if this is truley what he does have. I am able to look at the situation differently than my husband. We have done a tremendous amount of research and feel that the diagnosis is correct but again we are not dr's. This is the 3rd dr and 2 therapists who have felt this as well. I had one therapist who flat out stated that she was not qualified to help difficult child as she felt she was sitting in the same room with Ted Bundy.

    I feel that difficult child needs alot of help and what we need to do is to be able to give him an education and tools to hopefully become a funtioning part of society and not just another statistic for the prisons.

    After hearing this diagnosis once again, I am very nervous about having him in the home. I think it's going to have to be determined based on the end of this evaluation period. He will stay at this group home for up to 90 days and than will be determined if he needs higher level of care Residential Treatment Center (RTC) or be placed at home.

    My biggest concern is my son's safety first and foremost. I could never live with difficult child harming or worse to easy child and would never be able to forgive myself for such a decision. I love husband with all my heart but don't think he would be there if the roles were reversed.

    The other thing that bothers me is if his Bio-mom refuses to have him live with her because of fear why is it a problem for people to hear (dr's, therapists and such). I don't want to be a horrible stepmom but when faced with this reality what else can one think.

    difficult child told the doctor that he don't feel bad about anything he has done to anyone. He stated he loves to watch the fighting that he causes, and enjoys starting trouble between people to cause chaos.

    I am going to resarch the link Terry gave me and see if I can look into what this offers. Noone wants to give difficult child to the state by any means, but everyone needs to remain safe.

    Thank you all again.
  8. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It


    Biomom thinks people shouldn't hear the problems because then Dad might refuse to have difficult child live with him and SHE might face abandonment charges too! If he has 2 parents BOTH would need to be charged with abandonment if one is, I would think. At least if both refuse to have him live with them.

    You will need to very carefully discuss with your son all the things difficult child has already done to him and determine if those actions have already gone too far. I am sure difficult child did NOT leave easy child out of his torments, why would he leave an easy target alone?? easy child might not want to cause problems for you, or might be embarrassed or ashamed (esp if there is any sexual abuse that happened - if difficult child came in during the night or overpowered easy child or whatever) or have another reason for not telling you. Maybe difficult child told easy child if he told that difficult child would go after YOU. So easy child desperately NEEDS a therapist,especially with his recent behavior change. With those changes and no difficult child in the picture we would have asked you about drugs or possible sexual abuse/assault. So it IS possible that difficult child did something, or many somethings, to easy child.

    Examine that. Insist that difficult child go to an Residential Treatment Center (RTC). He will NOT be safe to live iwth in 90 days. It is sad. But you have to keep yourself and easy child safe as a higher priority than "fixing" difficult child, especially since difficult child has NO intention of being helped.

    I may be in the minority, but I really don't think there is much you are going to be able to do with difficult child except keep everyone safe from him and encourage him to change. I am not saying give up, but don't make difficult child your family focus. It won't serve anyone, least of all difficult child, well.

    I hope things go much better than predicted, I truly do. But most of all I hope for your and easy child's safety.
  9. gwenny

    gwenny New Member

    Thank you susie, I am in the process of finding a therapist for easy child. As for the group home it is an evaluation of difficult child to see if he shows his true colors there (so to speak). He will go to school on a bus and be with other kids and this scares me. But according to the mental health group this is what we have to do first in order to get him into an Residential Treatment Center (RTC).

    difficult child already only thought he would be there for 1 week and was told he will be there for a while and will be told the 90 days tomorrow at the family team meeting with the group home and mental health facility we are working with. I don't beleive he can hold out for 90 days without showing who he really is.

    easy child is doing really well at my parents shows a little attitude but what 14 year old dont. easy child will be back a week from today and hopefully have a therapist lined up for him. When you said that to me my heart sunk, about possible sexual abuse--and the fact that easy child wouldnt tell me of a threat that was made by difficult child. I really hope for everyones sake that didnt happen because I will really press charges and probably lose my mind. Ok Im getting a little ahead of what could be, so first priority is to talk to easy child and the therapist and get to the bottom of this. Gosh the possability of this is just breaking my heart and I no that easy child would try to protect me, just like he didnt want to leave me alone with difficult child (because when he left we wernt sure where difficult child was going).

    easy child was so cute, he called me from the airport to tell me he landed safely and 1st thing out of his mouth was "why are the cops at the house" Omg how did he know this? He got a text from his friends that he has checking out my house to protect sweet is he...(police just stopped by to pick up victim statements from the night difficult child was arrested).
  10. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    He is a really GOOD kid. One thing that good kids do is try to protect others. I know the possibility of abuse terrifies you. I was the kid, and then was the mom in the situation. whatever happens CAN be dealt with. Just NEVER let easy child know or think you would end up in a psychiatric hospital - he MUST know that you will cope with whatever comes. Otherwise he will NEVER open up to anyone who might tell you. If he is turning things around at his grandparents it is a very good sign.

    You DO have to have some faith in him. LEt him work with the therapist for a while and live in some normalcy. After a few weeks you can ask the therapist if they think abuse of any kind happened, and also let HIM know that if abuse happened you want to know and you will do whatever, absolutely whatever, it takes to protect both of you.

    Sending very gentle hugs. You will get through this. I know. Because I DID.


  11. AnnMarieTN

    AnnMarieTN New Member

    I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers. The Anti-Social diagnosis has been brought up with my son.
  12. jbrain

    jbrain Member

    Hi Gwenny,
    I highly recommend you read "The Sociopath Next Door." It is chilling but gives great insight into how someone with antisocial personality disorder thinks and behaves. It also recommends that you stay as far away as you can from someone with this disorder. The reason it is usually not treatable is because the person who has it does not want to change--they have no conscience, they have no reason to want to be different. And they do enjoy messing with other people--they also have no remorse at all; if they have to kill someone who is in their way they have no guilt, it doesn't matter to them.

    I know this sounds terrible and hopeless, please do read the book. If you truly are dealing with a person with this disorder I think you have to protect yourself and your son at all costs.

  13. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I want to make it quite clear that there are differences in each personality disorder. Not all of them are sociopaths. Not even all people with anti-social PD are sociopaths.
  14. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I straight out would find another psychiatrist (with the MD) and a neuropsychologist. I would NOT accept that nor give up that fast. Not all kids that seem to have antisocial tendencies turn out that way nor do they all get diagnosed correctly. My daughter, at her worst, had every symptoms of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), yet she is nothing like that now, at 24. I just don't buy it. It's up to you, of course, but I'd head for the hills and look for somebody willing to work with him and possibly look at other problems that could be causing his behavior. Once you accept that he is going to be the jail's problem, then you are giving up and it is a self-fulfilling prophecy as many mentally ill kids end up in jail. For me, that just wouldn't cut it and I'd be moving on. I'd go to the psychiatrist with the best repututaion around and also do the neuropsychologist evaluation. But no way would I sit on my hands, snivel about it, or accept it. THat's just not how I handle things. If I had, where would my daughter be now?? Sure, there are kids who are given a CD diagnosis. who live up to it, but there are plenty who are given that diagnosis. who don't deserve it. in my opinion he is way too young not to go in other directions just because some kids lived up to the diagnosis.
  15. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    Well, Gwenny, I got a smile out of your last post. If you want the latest gossip, ask your kids! That is SO true!
    I'm glad that easy child sounds like he's doing okay. (Big sigh of relief.)
    Take it one day at a time.
  16. rejectedmom

    rejectedmom New Member

    Gwenny, I am sorry that the professionals are not holding out much hope for your difficult child's future. I was given a similar picture for my difficult child when he was diagnosis RADD at age 15. I was told I would need the police and that the prognosis was not good. It was true for the most part. I have been through alot with my difficult child and it was not easy. That said, I never stopped advocating for him and never stopped trying to get him necessary help.

    I think a good choice in your situation is to have him live away from you but try to advocate for him and get interventions for him that might help.

    No one's future is set in stone and sometimes kids that seem to be doomed do turn themselves around. It is usually a long and hard process and it often does iinvolve the judical system. Truly if I had been given the option of having my difficult child live away from home when he was younger I think I would have taken it. Especially knowing what I know now. I would have spendt more time nurturing my other kids and grandkids and pursuing a life/career of my own. I gave up 18 years protecting difficult child from himself and others from difficult child. It Hoovered.

    Do your research, learn about all options and keep an open mind. -RM
  17. MyHrt31

    MyHrt31 New Member

    Do you have the option of seeking out a second opinion? Its really sad when doctors just give up on these kids. I don't have experience with this type of diagnosis but I know it can be tough when the prognosis is not good. I would definitely seek out a second opinion AND I would ask for other options beisdes "letting the law handle it".
  18. gwenny

    gwenny New Member

    We are learning as we go, and with all the suggestions and research are trying all avenues. Everytime that 1 door slams we try and open a new one. We were given the opportunity to have difficult child live away from home for now but it this diagnosis sticks no one will take him and than where will we be?? I live on the computer researching and when im not im on the phone trying to get information. i have written letters and even 1 to the president..(i know that was a long shot) but at least I can say I tried everything possible. I am writing congress, senators and just trying to get some help anywhere we cAn.

    Thank you all.
  19. MyHrt31

    MyHrt31 New Member

    I'll mention the disorder to my son's psychologist and see what her thoughts are about the prognosis and if she is aware of any resources that may help. I am really sorry that you are having such a rough time. You and your family will be in my prayers. Hugs!