Psychotic? Schizophrenic? Both?

gcvmom

Here we go again!
That is so sad and disappointing to hear, Totoro. :( I know you've gone to great lengths to move there in hopes it would help the kids, esp. K.
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
This is one of the pitfalls from the country closing down all the state run, long term mental hospitals. Back in the 60s or early 70's they just opened the doors and closed all those facilities and the patients became some of the countries largest group of homeless people. There was no where for them to go. Families didnt want these patients that had been in govt run facilities for years and years suddenly showing up at their doors. Most got maybe a months worth of medication and a card with the name of some outpatient facility on it.

That certainly worked out well.

It used to be that you could get that sick uncle or different aunt or brother into a home. Now, you are lucky if you get a 24 hour hold for danger to self or others and drugged out of their mind, walking naked down the interstate doesnt count. It used to.

Sad.

It was the 1980's that closed the mental health facilities.
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
Oh, please. This "we had no idea anyone would shoot someone because of what we said" is disingenuous. Let's not forget that many many people predicted this. Did he do this BECAUSE of the political climate? I don't know. We may not ever know. But to think that in Arizona's volatile political environment a young man with access to the internet suffering from paranoia directed at the government never heard any of the violent rhetoric used to put some people into office is just beyond naive. It's been done in politics for decades. You stir up people with small minds and when they blow you blame their small minds.

I know that there are many of us who hold our breath when the news comes on with an announcement about this type of thing. "Was it my child?" We also know that our children are extremely easily influenced into outrageous behavior. The violent beast was fed and the beast did what everyone knew would happen. Unless it can be proven that this young man had never heard any of the violent rhetoric, we can't ever dismiss that he was influenced by it. Which was the straw that broke the camel's back? Does it matter? No one was lightening the load - that's what matters.
 
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HaoZi

Guest
I look at the situation and see someone who could just as easily have latched onto religion, activism, or the girl down the street as his outlet/target. Influences abound, from home to school to news to internet, if it hadn't been one thing it would have been another. It hit big news because it was a politician and a high body count, but smaller versions of this both with and without guns, happens frequently and don't get a second glance from most media outlets.

We have a local case where a mother killed one of her children because she believed her two kids (one lived) had demons in them and she couldn't handle the youngest one's tantrums any longer. She had the body in a suitcase and even took it with them when they moved to a new residence. She had made the surviving kid pray over the body of the dead one. CPS had visited at least once and was told the kids were at a relative's house. The body was discovered almost a year after he died.
 

gcvmom

Here we go again!
I look at the situation and see someone who could just as easily have latched onto religion, activism, or the girl down the street as his outlet/target. Influences abound, from home to school to news to internet, if it hadn't been one thing it would have been another. It hit big news because it was a politician and a high body count, but smaller versions of this both with and without guns, happens frequently and don't get a second glance from most media outlets.

The Cho incident at Virginia Tech springs to mind. One statement goes like this: "His thought processes were so distorted that he began arguing to himself that his evil plan was actually doing good. His destructive fantasy was now becoming an obsession."
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
OMG, HaoZi, that makes my stomach flip. I cannot imagine what that sibling will grow up like.

Totoro, that is so sad. Especially for you, but also because I cannot imagine that any pediatrician would deny that kids can be mentally ill. I mean, I understand not diagnosis-ing bipolar at age two, but when you've got a 10-yr-old who stands on the roof and thinks he can fly, there is no denying there is a serious problem.
Again, I am so sorry.
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
husband and I were talking about Jared today ... We were second guessing what that family was like, so "protected" from the outside world, and how you can arm your kids too much by overprotecting them as you can by overexposing them to the wrong things at the wrong time.

When I gave birth to easy child, we talked about the type of parents we wanted to be, and how we wouldn't treat our kids the way our parents treated us. husband laughed and said, "No, not to worry, we won't mess them up the way our parents messed us up. We'll invent BRAND NEW WAYS to mess up our kids!"

:groan:
 
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HaoZi

Guest
Wait... I thought most kids think they can fly until gravity proves them wrong. Several times.
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Hmm, you have a point there ... Most kids think they can obtain the speed of light with-o injuries, as well. Especially when they come into contact with-something stationary.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Those poor parents...

Who can say what came first - parental instability (if it is there) or problem child they tried to keep out of society as long as they could, perhaps not knowing any other way to cope. The parents are not killers. Their son doesn't sound connected to reality. Yes, political rhetoric may have been a factor, but perhaps anything could have been.

On this site, there is collective wisdom and mutual support that makes it easier to know what kind of help to get for your child. Not everyone knows to reach out, or where to reach out. We have to be careful to not judge other people by our standards, when their life experiences may have been very different.

Marg
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Well, I can agree with-one thing: if my son did what Jared did, I'd been inconsolable and crying until I threw up, too. I can imagine the horror those parents are going through, no matter what the background info is.
 

tiredmommy

Well-Known Member
Those poor parents...
On this site, there is collective wisdom and mutual support that makes it easier to know what kind of help to get for your child. Not everyone knows to reach out, or where to reach out. We have to be careful to not judge other people by our standards, when their life experiences may have been very different.
Marg

Definitely. Those poor people will have enough fingers pointed at them.
 
I feel as though I am punched in the gut every time Loughner is referred to as maniac, nutcase, psycho, wacko. It scares me -- the casual way that he is labeled and dismissed and mocked. It's wrong. It seems that the media is putting that creepy mug shot out there like a trophy for us to gape at.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/11/AR2011011106921.html

What witz said -- "No one was there to lighten the load." That's the sad truth and breaks my heart for that kid.

Our son had a psychotic break, so some of this feels so familiar to me and it scares me and makes me so angry too. I read that some families of people with sz (if that's what Loughner suffers from, we don't know for sure) are "coming out" and telling their stories, among them Bill Kurtiss from American Justice, whose son had sz.
https://web.archive.org/web/2011011...rt’-after-tragic-news-strikes-personal-chord/

Venting. Grieving for those who were killed, and those injured, and the survivors. I read that Congresswoman Giffords is breathing on her own now, off the ventilator.
 
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DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
I am just about as outraged as I can be. If I wouldnt damage my TV beyond repair I probably would have thrown something at it at least a hundred times over the last few days. I post remarks on facebook pages for HLN but what good does that do? Pebble in a storm.

People keep calling this guy awful names. Talking about how his parents must have been lacking in some area...social misfits, didnt do enough, wacky themselves...on and on etc. No one who hasnt lived this life has any clue what its like to be mentally ill or raise a mentally ill child. No one understands that children as young as 14 can decide they dont want treatment anymore and simply refuse to comply. No one understands that once a person reaches 18, parents are really screwed. No one will help you no matter how much you beg. Those strange ramblings wouldnt get him so much as an hour in a psychiatric hospital. No psychiatrist cares if he wants to invent his own currency or he thinks people are stupid.

This is extremely sad. He obviously didnt trust anyone who could convince him to get the help he so badly needed and now this has happened. Personally, I hope that they will test him completely and find him not fit to stand trial and he will end up in a forensic psychiatric hospital for years and years. If he actually can get well and functional, I wouldnt be adverse to him being released if he could be maintained on intensive parole to make sure he was following medication requirements. As has been pointed out, medicated mentally ill people, really arent that dangerous.
 

CrazyinVA

Well-Known Member
Staff member
The parks and downtown are littered with homeless and mentally ill- nowhere for them go. This is not a huge town. It is sad because this is not a new story in the US.

My oldest brother is one of those homeless people in Tucson. He is likely mentally ill but has never sought help or been diagnosed (I suspect a personality disorder). He specifically chose to hop a bus to Tucson from the Difficult Child area because he heard they were "frirendly to homeless people," whatever that means. While he's never been violent, my heart skipped a beat when this story broke, especially when they were at first looking for a "person of interest" who was around my brother's age. I've not heard from him in about 3 years.

My heart breaks for all involved, especially the parents of the shooter. It's brought me into some interesting conversations with coworkers and acquaintenances, some of which had no idea how much I know about mental illness and the "system." Awkward at times.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Terry, thanks for posting the link to that article. One point still bothers me though - people are still saying, "Perhaps the parents are too close to be able to see how bad things are."

Or perhaps the parents, like so many here, can see the potential for disaster but nobody can help or seems to even listen?

I think it's one more reason for us to always document everything. If you had a child who did something like tis (heaven forbid) but you had your own letters you had written to doctors begging them to help him, or authorities warning them of your concerns that your son was psychotic and potentially dangerous - and nothing got done, this is where you could point the spotlight back on the problems involved in actually getting the help in place for people like this.

It is far too simplistic to blame any one person or group. But the deaths and suffering of these people will again go to waste, if people get lost in blame, and not in "How can we prevent this sort of thing in the future?"

Marg
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
will again go to waste, if people get lost in blame, and not in "How can we prevent this sort of thing in the future?"

Indeed, especially when the blame should be placed with-Jared, since he's over 21. Even if he is schizophrenic. And even if his parents were part of the problem. Once again, this points out a perported flaw in our system, where people can be "innocent due to mental illness" instead of "guilty AND mentally ill." (I recall a thread on this topic recently but don't remember what the title was. There was also a good article in the Richmond Times Dispatch a cpl wks ago on that topic, and of course I threw it in the recycling:sigh:)

by the way, it's obvious but I'm going to say it anway: there is no way to prevent all of these tragedies in the future. We can minimize the quantity, but people are people and things happen.
 
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HaoZi

Guest
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