Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by klmno, Dec 25, 2008.

  1. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    I'm lowering the depakote er back to where it was, just in case that is the problem.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2008
  2. Baisar

    Baisar New Member

    Klmno, I can understand you wanting to protect your son, but when you are dead who is going to protect him? Call his school and most have a mental health professional who can refer you to help. Another option is to have him "Baker" Acted. Different states have different names for it but basically it comes down to you feeling he is a danger to himself or others. He will be placed in psychiatric observation for 72 hours and you can go from there to try and get him the help he needs.
    This is a serious problem and I feel you may be inadvertantly teaching him that is okay to harm you by your inaction.
    My prayers are with you.
  3. mom_to_3

    mom_to_3 Active Member

    klmn, I don't like the way this sounds AT ALL. I've backed off responding to your posts the last week or so because what I had to say was not "supportive" in the way of what I think you want to hear. I'm truly am trying to be supportive and not hurtful.

    You have got to get your son OUT of your home, no ifs ands or buts. All of your fears are holding you and your son back from getting the help you both so desperately need. Your son's level of violence and aggression have been and are so out of the norm it's scary!

    With all the kindness in my heart............... you do know that on some level you are enabling this behavior, right? By not calling 911 the first time any kind of physical violence occurred. in my opinion, for what it is worth............. Your son should have had from the very first time, swift, and strong consequences for his violence towards you or any one else! Yes, he obviously has mental health issue's of some sort. That being said, he's got to learn to take responsibility for his mental health care and his actions. There can never be an excuse for violence of any kind and he has upped the ante big time! Can you just imagine what could possibly happen say next year, if something is not done now? Can you even believe what has happened.........tonight? Please, please call 911!

    You appear to be frozen with fear. I do understand that. I wouldn't think that the powers that be, would hand your son over to your brother, without your permission. If it came up, you of course would be able to voice your concerns and put an end to that. As far as the state Department of Juvenile Justice, it may just be the place your son belongs, for now. It may open up the services that you have been seeking.

    When your son was in the psychiatric hospital, was he given a diagnosis? What really was the purpose of that visit and was anything accomplished? I would strongly encourage you to tell the professionals EVERY single act of violence your son has committed, the threats he makes, his thing with knives, the damage to your home and all of the other problems he is having, so that he may receive services he needs. Leave no stone unturned!

    He is your son and it's clear you love him, as you should. You are not able to protect him from himself, he needs outside intervention and you are going to have to just trust, that is what he'll get. You have to let go, to be able to help your son. Again, I would encourage you to call 911 immediately! That really could be the beginning of a new life for the both of you.

    Please take what I said in the manner it was written, with great care and understanding! BIG hugs to you and I am so sorry you were assaulted by your son tonight.
  4. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    So far, there is no help offered or available.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2008
  5. Wiped Out

    Wiped Out Well-Known Member Staff Member

    First off hugs to you. I know how upsetting and scary this is. I have lived with violence from my difficult child (right now he is relatively stable and not violent (mainly due to the consequences we have set up at home right now) but threatens future violence all of the time. At his worst, he was hospitalized each time but still I have lived with him being out of control.

    Is there any chance of him being hospitalized again? Probably, due to the fact that it was Christmas, you haven't had a chance to call the psychiatrist-I would do that today to get his take on it.

    I am worried for your safety. Do you have a cell phone that you can use when you can't use the phone? Is it possible to get one of those prepaid ones for just such an emergency?

    I truly hope you are able to get more services-it has to be beyond frustrating to be trying so hard for those services and not receiving them. I just get so angry for you that you haven't been able to get more services.

  6. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    Unless you can find a way to reconcile your fears with your son staying with your brother, I don't think you have any choice. I agree, I wouldn't let my child go to Department of Juvenile Justice unless he had committed a crime against others and I was given absolutely NO choice in the matter. However, his level of violence is increasing and the odds are it is only going to to get worse. You will end up serioiusly injured.

    Now, I'm going to be really blunt. Some of it you bring on yourself. You know he's unstable right now and yet you expect him to comply to your wishes when you want him off the computer. That's not going to happen and he's found a way to stay on as long as he wants. You grabbed the collar of his shirt. I'm sure that in his mind that means he has the right to touch you right back and, of course, his touch will be a lot less gentle than yours.

    The first thing I would do is remove the door to his room. He doesn't have a right to privacy regardless of what he thinks. I'd also be dang sure to do this with someone else present to help me when he goes into a rage about it.

    You are teaching him that violence is acceptable and it will get him what he wants. I'm sorry but regardless of the risks, I'd call 911 to say he is unstable and needs to be hospitalized. If you don't have a cell, get one and keep it on you at all times. You're going to need it. One day, you're not even going to have the option of getting to a neighbor. He's not going to let you.

    You really are between a rock and a hard place but you need to decide what it is you want to teach your son. Is it okay to threaten or hurt someone to get what you want? If so, what is going to happen when he does the same to a teacher or classmate or even a stranger who gets in his way and what do you think will happen when (not if, WHEN) he does this? Right now, you may have some control of whether he goes to the hospital or to jail because you are his mother. You'll have no choice if it is someone else.

    I know you don't like your brother but I've never really been sure of the issues as to why. That's your business. Do you really think it would harm your son? Quite frankly, if it is because you think your brother will alienate your son towards you, I'd say let your bro have custody for awhile with liberal visitation rights by you. If you think he will harm your son, then fight for a foster home for your son.

    The reality is that right now your son cannot live with you. It is dangerous for you and will end up harming him in too many ways. My daughter was violent at the age of 13. Not as violent as your son but still violent. I had no family or friends that were willing to take her, so I had to get CPS involved. It was sheer hell but after a week in a very abusive foster home, she did get the message that living at home was much better than living elsewhere and that living at home meant she could not be violent. Of course, your son has more going on that my daughter did. She could and did control her actions when it suited her.

    I know you're trying to get your son help and I know you're trying to protect him but you also have a responsibility to yourself and a responsibility to what messages you give your son. You have a sympathetic judge and that's a good thing. See if you can make an appointment with the judge even if that means camping out in his courtroom to get the clerk's attention to make an appointment. If there is a juvenile officer in your police department, make an appointment and find out exactly what is available through those avenues. Go to the PO's supervisor and find out exactly what can be done that way. Go to the head of the local CPS and find out what they can offer and what you have to do to get it.

    This. has. to. stop.
  7. goldenguru

    goldenguru Active Member

    First of all - I personally do not think YOU should be adjusting his medications. That needs to come from his psychiatrist.

    Secondly, slamming you against a wall and punching you in the back is NOT OK. Putting a knife in your face is NOT OK.

    If it were me, I would have walked out the front door (since he disabled your access to a phone) to a neighbors and called 911. I understand your desire to keep him out of the juvenile court system, but what he is doing to you is CRIMINAL. I know it's your son, and I know that makes this especially difficult, but seriously, someone is going to get really hurt.
  8. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    This has gone too far. It is time to report these acts of violence. If you fear your bro will sexually assault your son, then put that in writing and give it to the PO and the judge.

    This child is going to end up living for the rest of his life with the knowledge that he beat his mother. Possibly that he hospitalized her. Is guilt over hospitalizing you or worse something you really think he will be able to handle long term? I know Wiz couldn't have handled it. That is why we moved as quickly as possible every time we found that he was hurting, or wanting to hurt, anyone. Because, as you know, long after the deed is handled, the guilt lives on. And it can be worse than anything else.

    Right now you are hiding posts on the computer, you are unable to use the phone if he doesn't want you to, and he pushed you against a wall and punched you in the back a FEW times. And you STILL didn't leave to go call the police??? You as much as told him it was OK to treat you this way.

    I am sorry that doesn't sound supportive in a way you would like. But he already has to live with the knowledge that he slammed you against the wall and hit you and you ALLOWED IT.

    He is in a VERY bad place and MUST be AWAY from you. You may end up not surviving this. Do you really want him to live with that? It was one of my great fears that Wiz would have to live with the knowledge and guilt that he had killed one of us.

    For months we have been telling you that the idiot PO has a boss, and that person has a boss. Somewhere there is a person at the top. CALL THEM if the PO won't give you option. You have found other numbers. Go sit in the governor's office, or the head of the Probation Dept, or the chief of police ANY of their offices.

    STOP making this behavior OK for your son. In the end, it isn't going to matter if it started because mental illness or some other reason. He is going to go even farther and you won't be there to advocate at all. You will be in a hospital or worse place. Or he will be old enough that it will be adult time they give him. They DO give adult time to children before age 18.

    I hope you are scared. Very scared. Scared enough to get that prepaid cell, to quit making excuses, and to either have him taken back to the psychiatric hospital and refuse to take him home or that you call the police and press assault charges.

    I KNOW it hurts. I know how terrible you feel when your child can't live with you. I know how absolutely awful these decisions are to make.

    But right now you have an armed mentally ill teen running your home and life. If you let it continue neither one of you will have a life. And I also know that you CAN grow past this. That, even if he is removed by the police, you CAN grow together and heal.

    I am so very sorry. I truly am. I know that deep down in his heart he loves you. and that his illness is in the way. But whether it is illness, genetics, or little green men on the moon, you still have to stop this.

    I am really scared for you. And for him.
  9. Im a Believer

    Im a Believer New Member

    I am so VERY sorry you are having to go thru this ~ Prayers and Hugs are sent your way ~Judy
  10. SRL

    SRL Active Member

    Please call the domestic violence hotline in your region--they often have free cell phones and other resources for women who are threatened in their own homes. We have worked with them for a family member and they were very understanding and helpful.
  11. GoingNorth

    GoingNorth Crazy Cat Lady

    By LAW, any cellphone, whether on active service or not, MUST dial 911. You do not need a contract or cellular service to dial 911.

    All you need is a charge cellphone.
  12. smallworld

    smallworld Moderator

    klmno, big hugs.

    This sounds very similar to my son when he's not stable. When his medications got straightened out, the violence stopped. I have to believe your difficult child's medications are not right. You must call the psychiatrist today and report this. If psychiatrist is not available, I recommend returning to the psychiatric hospital because nothing really happened during his recent stay and nothing really changed.

    Until your difficult child is more stable, showers belong in Basket C. Truly.

    I don't believe your son wants to feel this way and I don't believe he's a bad kid. He needs mental health help above all else. Keep that as your goal when dealing with the powers that be.

    Hang in there. We're here for you.
  13. Rotsne

    Rotsne Banned

    I agree that the situation cannot go on. I also understand the options are not sometime you want and because you are the custorial parent, I want to suggest you a solution which could allow your both to reach a fair conclusion.

    I believe that you should allow a professional to evaluate your both and coach your parenting style. While our family therapist has her ideas, she have given us many valuable inputs.

    The evaluation can be done in your home, but given the extreme situation I would recommend that it should be done in a therapeutic environment. We have a lot of places where parents and children can live for weeks monitored 24/7. In my town you can get your house turned into a kind of "Big Brother" house. They simply set up camera everywhere (but the toilets).

    If the public sector doesn't such a solution, then there are only a private solution back and it is expensive. He needs to go away from videogames - basically his comfort zone and be forced into solving tasks with you. I saw a week long family wilderness program near Two Harbors in Minnesota where you can go together with your son. (They also offers hikes in New Mexico and Texas.)

    I have seen a lot of teens missing an adult mentor beside the parents. I dont believe that your son needs placement or a program, but I believe that he could use perhaps a male rolemodel in his life. Are the DSS involved in the sport clubs in your area as we do here, where the coaches are aided with social workers seeing to the emontional health among the players?

    You could also need a little training becoming a drill sergent. I have not seen your past threads so I dont know if you by accident had created this problem because you inside at some point have felt that you had failed him as every other parents at some point thinks they have. Maybe you have gifted him into becoming a busybody?

    I saw a program for parents which need to come into parental shape. I have no idea if they can offer a similar program for your targetgroup in your area, but I would recommend that you researched it. Anyhow here is a couple of links to parental courses so you can set up borders WITHOUT ending up in a confrontation every time.

    They are not miracle cures but given the alternative - sending your child to a program - where he will come back to his old comfort zone and fall back into his old patterns you can change the environment where he obivious doesn't feel well now.

    The balance of power in your home is in imbalance. Because you pay the bills, you have to remain in control. The only way to solve that is to take the control before he simply is too strong and in need of a placement outside the home.

    I hope that you find the tools to bring your household into balance again and pray that you find the right solutions.
  14. compassion

    compassion Member

    KLMNO, Sounds like my dauhter when not stable. I agree the baskets are invaluable. It is relaly hard for me not to engage in power struggles. It happned yesterday. I am better though at not reacting as much. When she is irrational like that, cannot reason/negoiate. It can be very scary.
    In my experience, the medications stabilization was what helped immensely. Her p-doctor will not even give prn medications to keep it stable. The mood stabilizers have hlepd tons. I also had the reaction that all the medications changes could really be whacking him out. My books say it can take 9 or 10 months to sbalilize.
    I have a sosn who is adhd and needs constant activity. Actually daughter is pretty much like that too. Also, the males tends to want to assert their dominance and control.
    My experince is channleling energy as much as possible. I do have to shar that gaming acually calms him down with the adhd dtuff. I balnce it with lots of other stuff/ He loves to read, etc. Compassion
  15. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Ok- I'll do everything in my power to talk with someone at social services today.

    Some had questions that are covered in previous threads- I'll try to briefly respond here- I have called half the people in the state, it seems, and found that there is a county team that provides help thru a certain funding (see Terry's thread a couple of days ago with a link to a newspaper article on General). I have already taken steps to get them on board but have to wait for others' processes- a person in need of help cannot just call and get it.

    The psychiatric hospital stay was acute inpatient. psychiatrists here (most- including difficult child's) do not just admit kids to psychiatric hospital for indefinite stays of observation. You get a few days- then that is is. It's all insurance will pay for. Once the psychiatric hospital psychiatrist says the kid is not an imminent danger to himself or others- they are discharged. The first time he was in, I begged for them not to let him out yet and told them I was afraid for both of us if came came home yet. They said there was nothing they could do and discharged him.

    As far as the depakote- I do not change my son's medications on my own without prior direction from psychiatrist. difficult child's psychiatrist told me to increase his depakote and added an AD, and told difficult child that if the medication change made him feel wierd or too different, then tell me and we would change it back. Then psychiatrist told me it was ok to change on at a time, and to increase the depakote first, I had already told psychiatrist that I was concerned about this causing agression. (This isn't the first time that a bad mix caused it) psychiatrist told me if signs like that came back, we would KNOW it was the depakote and lower it back down. I also had theis conversation with difficult child yesterday. difficult child has seen this psychiatrist for nearly 3 years and psychiatrist gives me leeway to increase or decrease many medications when we are trialing them. My son's first line MS is lithobid- we don't mess with it at all without a lot of discussion and blood tests. We were only going to raise the depakote to compensate for the addition of an AD.

    True- I can see where I should have handled all this differently. difficult child did eventually remove the doorknob yesterday. Then, he put clean sheets on both our beds and made them nicely on his own after I did laundry. I didn't even ask him to do that. When he goes a few hours and seems very stable and nice, then becomes agressive at the ddrop of a hat, I react as if he's stable. I simply forget that he is not. And when he ignores me, it really gets under my skin and he knows it. Maybe I should wear a bracelet or something to remind me during his periods of instability.

    My son is already in the legal system- he's on probation and has a suspended sentence. He has been in detention short term. The Department of Juvenile Justice correctional facility is a completely different system- different building, different kids, staff, etc. I discussed it with 2 attnys thhis past year- they both said it is a parents' worst nightmaare- the stories we think of in adult male prison- they happen there. Yes, I have reason to believe that difficult child would be abused and sexually assaulted if my bro had custody, as well.

    The other services mentioned- that is what I'm trying to get thru the county team- it has to be them that funds them and approves them sinice I don't have money to pay them out of pocket and difficult child is not on medicaid (our insurance woun't cover it). I applied earlier this week to see if he can get on medicaid thru a waiver. I have to wait to hear back from them.

    As sorry as I am that anyone else has had to witness this and live with it from their kids, it is a great comfort to know that several others have experienced this when kids with modd lability are not stable. That doesn't make it acceptable. That doesn't mean I am ignoring the seriousness or that I'm not trying to get help.

    Last, but not least, thank you all for your concerns. I know you are trying to get me to see that something needs to be done and to take action so this does not continue.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2008
  16. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    After calming down a bit and stepping back and looking at it, here's what happened regarding medications: Oct.- difficult child was majorly depressed, psychiatrist said we could try adding an AD and raising depakote to compensate. This was a concern for both psychiatrist and myself because difficult child apparently went manic due to an AD before and that's why he raised depakote, however, when difficult child first was titrating up on depkaote a year ago, that higher dose turned him into a person I never wanted to see again so it was immediately lowered back. psychiatrist said we could try this- maybe it would be different this time.

    Then, difficult child got physically ill shortly after ( a few days) these medication changes and was rx'd other medications that can potentially cause agitation/stimulation, etc- ie, a potential trigger for mania. After being on all those medications a few days, difficult child started becoming agressive, so I put the ones psychiatrist rx's back where they were while difficult child finished his ones for the physical illness. I told psychiatrist about it and he was fine with that. Then, he said to try again, starting depakote first so we can see if it is the depakote causing the agression. If that goes ok, then start the AD and we'll see if he has any reaction to that. That was about 11 days ago.

    Between ending the physical medications and talking with psychiatrist about trialing this new medication combo again, difficult child started cutting himself. About 3 days after raising depakote again, I had difficult child tdo'd for an inpatient evaluation. He was not violent at that time. The psychiatric hospital was aware of all this and chose to keep the depakote at the higher dose but not add the AD yet. yesterday, of course, I see the violence again. I think it is worth it to put the depakote back where it was and see if the violence and agression decrease.

    Given that I see this in difficult child when moods aren't adequately regulated but not when they are, I agree that the correct medication mix will help the most. And, that's why I want him to be somewhere where he can get help. If the medicaid waiver comes thru, that will be at least a possibility and I should at least be able to get someone lined up to come and help deal with things when they reach crisis mode at home but don't meet psychiatric hospital's and insurance co's definition of acute.
  17. klmno, I am so sorry you are not only having such great difficulty with your son, but also getting him the help he needs. I pray that my son doesn't ever get that violent.

    Please don't let him get violent with you again, he could seriously hurt you, and then when he is stable, he would have to live with it. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes, but I am afraid that you might not have a choice in calling 911, particularly if it is the only way that he might be able to get help.

    Many hugs,

  18. Shari

    Shari IsItFridayYet?


    Just want to send a hug your way. I understand you're trying to keep him out of the legal system long enough to get additional help, if it comes thru. Your breacelet idea is a good one. A big gawdy bracelet so its easy to notice. But please, please, please - if your gut tells you, in the heat of the moment, that this time its bigger - get YOURSELF safe, even if that means calling the police. difficult child has nothing if he loses you.

    Hugs and prayers for you.
  19. compassion

    compassion Member

    Hugs and spupport for you!!!! I feel a lot of days I am in a similar place with my difficult child. I want her stable which is frutstrating and takes a long time. I feel my difficult child is very young and she is two years older than yours.
    I think you are on the right path of keeping him with you,safe and being the warrior mom that y0u are, doing all you can do to get him and keep him stable.
    It is difficult to have the patience and energy to see this out. You are an amazing inspirtation. Peace and rest to you, Compassion
  20. gcvmom

    gcvmom Here we go again!

    klmno, I am so sorry about the chaos.

    Did he ever trial Risperdal or any of the other APs? How did he do on them?