Really struggling right now

[Beta]

Whew...I've read through all of your posts. Thank you for your responses and your concern. Copa, my heart hurt to read about the experience at the bank. Very insightful of you to recognize that. I know that Josh has issues not only about adoption but also about race. He is biracial but identifies as African-American, and I have no idea what he has experienced. He is very angry about living in small midwestern towns, and from what he has said, I think there were experiences where he experienced racism.

Here's where we are are the moment:
I called the local chapter of NAMI in Denver the other day. The man I spoke to said it's the involuntary mental commitment thing is pretty much "a revolving door" and by that he meant that if you are able to get one, they don't hold them more than 72 hours and it takes several commitments before they will hold them longer, long enough to actually accomplish anything. He did encourage me to call the CIT in the Denver area (Crisis Intervention Team) rather than the police because most police are not trained in dealing with the mentally ill. I emailed the CIT (only contact info available on their website) and got an email with a name and number. I called this morning and left a message. I will see what this police officer from CIT has to say about intervention and the situation as a whole. I have saved his text messages over several days.

I saw my therapist on Monday afternoon. She said that if someone is getting up, dressing, eating, going to work, etc. it's unlikely the court will issue a commitment order. She did suggest thinking about doing a family intervention. I don't know; I don't see that as working. My husband has urged me to block him and keep him blocked many times. I've been stubborn, thinking I could block him for a week or two and then try again, but it never changes. I think he has moved further along than I am at this point. He is hurting but able to more resigned about it. He has said, "I've got about 15-20 years of life left probably, and I'm not spending it in anguish and drama with Josh."

As far as seeing Josh, I am making plans to go to my sister's on September 6-9. I asked my sister to talk with Josh last night. She did so for over a hour, and he was adamant that he does NOT want to see me. In fact, if I come, he is going to stay with a friend somewhere else. Just to let you know, my desire to go is not just about Josh. I would like to reconnect with my sister and her family as we have not really had much of a relationship for years. I feel that things are moving to the point where I need to finally let him go and reclaim my life. I've loved him and have made a lot of sacrifices for him and have done it for 29 years. It's a hard pill to swallow--that much time and love invested in someone and then they spit in your face and reject you, but I know I have to move on at some point and live the life God has given me.
I do not expect him to change his mind about seeing me. He is very angry with us because we refused to fix the car he had, which he was fixated on because it was a BMW, and he says we have not supported and believed in him. He expects us to help him financially. Of course, that's all he wants from us--money.

JayPee-I too have wondered what it is within myself that would allow the abuse as long as I have, and I too think it has to do with feelings of not being worthy. I think, in some convoluted way, allowing those words of his to come to me is like a "penance" I owe for not being who I think I should be or doing what I think I should have, etc. Who knows. Other than the fact that it's distorted and untrue thinking.
Will write more when I know more. Thank you all for your thoughts and prayers. Means a lot to me. I would be a basketcase if God had not brought this site to my attention.

 

[RN0441]

I think your husband makes a very good point.

I also feel that God brought me to this site because I felt like I was losing my mind too when I found this forum and although things with us are much better, I hope that I can offer someone a lifeline and hope like I received.

 

[JayPee]

JayPee-I too have wondered what it is within myself that would allow the abuse as long as I have, and I too think it has to do with feelings of not being worthy. I think, in some convoluted way, allowing those words of his to come to me is like a "penance" I owe for not being who I think I should be or doing what I think I should have, etc. Who knows. Other than the fact that it's distorted and untrue thinking.

Beta,

I've come to realize that to continually open myself up emotionally to an abusive or addicted person (i.e., my sons) without seeing any change is foolish on my part. It's ok to forgive, but I need to guard myself until I see sustained changes. I deserve respect too.

 

[Blindsided]

Whew...I've read through all of your posts. Thank you for your responses and your concern. Copa, my heart hurt to read about the experience at the bank. Very insightful of you to recognize that. I know that Josh has issues not only about adoption but also about race. He is biracial but identifies as African-American, and I have no idea what he has experienced. He is very angry about living in small midwestern towns, and from what he has said, I think there were experiences where he experienced racism.

Here's where we are are the moment:
I called the local chapter of NAMI in Denver the other day. The man I spoke to said it's the involuntary mental commitment thing is pretty much "a revolving door" and by that he meant that if you are able to get one, they don't hold them more than 72 hours and it takes several commitments before they will hold them longer, long enough to actually accomplish anything. He did encourage me to call the CIT in the Denver area (Crisis Intervention Team) rather than the police because most police are not trained in dealing with the mentally ill. I emailed the CIT (only contact info available on their website) and got an email with a name and number. I called this morning and left a message. I will see what this police officer from CIT has to say about intervention and the situation as a whole. I have saved his text messages over several days.

I saw my therapist on Monday afternoon. She said that if someone is getting up, dressing, eating, going to work, etc. it's unlikely the court will issue a commitment order. She did suggest thinking about doing a family intervention. I don't know; I don't see that as working. My husband has urged me to block him and keep him blocked many times. I've been stubborn, thinking I could block him for a week or two and then try again, but it never changes. I think he has moved further along than I am at this point. He is hurting but able to more resigned about it. He has said, "I've got about 15-20 years of life left probably, and I'm not spending it in anguish and drama with Josh."

As far as seeing Josh, I am making plans to go to my sister's on September 6-9. I asked my sister to talk with Josh last night. She did so for over a hour, and he was adamant that he does NOT want to see me. In fact, if I come, he is going to stay with a friend somewhere else. Just to let you know, my desire to go is not just about Josh. I would like to reconnect with my sister and her family as we have not really had much of a relationship for years. I feel that things are moving to the point where I need to finally let him go and reclaim my life. I've loved him and have made a lot of sacrifices for him and have done it for 29 years. It's a hard pill to swallow--that much time and love invested in someone and then they spit in your face and reject you, but I know I have to move on at some point and live the life God has given me.
I do not expect him to change his mind about seeing me. He is very angry with us because we refused to fix the car he had, which he was fixated on because it was a BMW, and he says we have not supported and believed in him. He expects us to help him financially. Of course, that's all he wants from us--money.

JayPee-I too have wondered what it is within myself that would allow the abuse as long as I have, and I too think it has to do with feelings of not being worthy. I think, in some convoluted way, allowing those words of his to come to me is like a "penance" I owe for not being who I think I should be or doing what I think I should have, etc. Who knows. Other than the fact that it's distorted and untrue thinking.
Will write more when I know more. Thank you all for your thoughts and prayers. Means a lot to me. I would be a basketcase if God had not brought this site to my attention.

Beta, I have been checking back in because of concern.

First, BINGO! CIT. So glad you contacted the hotline.

Someone mentioned the same thing about the 3 day involuntary commitment. It isn't enough time to be therapeutic for your son and could enrage his behavior even more. That said, if at any time you feel unsafe, whether or not it is therapeutic for him is irrelevant.

It would be wonderful if you and your sister could work together. That said, a family intervention in this case doesn't seem safe to me unless conducted by a professional interventionist. We simply cannot be objective. Based on my personal experience, I think an independent person to lead is more likely to get the best results. Under the best of circumstances, it doesnt always work the way we expect. My sibling is a psychiatric NP.

I found the only thing I could change was to stop enabling. I had to stop the bank of mom or we wouldhave been bankrupted by my daughters gambling habit She doesnt work and has always expected men to take care of her. I have no idea what her living situation is now that she has gone completely off the rails with her destructive behaviors. Part of me wants to know, the other part is glad I don't. I have learned from others that not one penny ever went towards "helping my child get on her feet." That is not fair to our other children. We saved all our lives so we could be comfortable in our old age. I stopped giving money about 3 years ago. I am embarrassed to say when May would call with a crisis, I would jump to. I wish I would have stopped sooner. I am glad you have made the decision to stop. I know how hard that decision is, but it's the right one.

Some advice given, when we do for them we send a message that we feel they are incapable. My therapist had said those exact words to me. These adult children pull off their manipulative behaviors with stealth precision. They are capable.

I am glad about your decision to stop being tortured by Josh's vile behavior. You cant change it. We have to let go of guilt and thinking we can fix anybody but ourselves so we can be strong and capable. We deserve to be respected for the help we render. I am not in a great place because of a recent event with my daughter, but I am so much better than I would be without this group of amazing people. Take this time to figure out what you need to do for you. I am.

Keep us posted. Thank you for the update.

"The secret of change is to focus all of your energy, not on fighting the old, but on building the new." — Socrates

 

[Copabanana]

Hi Beta

You sound at peace. And strong. It sounds like you have turned a corner. And that a plan is coming together. Everything on your side of the fence, appears heading in the right direction and makes sense. You and your husband are coming to a common understanding and goals You and your sister have the potential to move closer.

if you and your sister could work together. That said, a family intervention in this case doesn't seem safe to me unless conducted by a professional interventionist.

I agree with Blindsided.

The only thing that concerns me is Josh. Not only his welfare but his potential to act out and to do harm.

I am worried that by going to visit your sister now at her house, you are entering a hornet's nest. In Josh's mind, this is his territory. Actually, I worry about him there at all. But I worry a great deal about you going there. I think he may experience it as inflammatory. Even if he does not act out against you, it sounds like your going there is a trigger for him.

For some reason you are his identified target. This is not your fault.

Rather, I suggest that you work with your sister away from the house. Also, I continue to worry that your sister and her family are not well-served by Josh being in her home. I recognize that his being there is taking away some of your stress and worry, but by his conduct he has shown that he is unstable and out of control--and thinking about violence. I would hope you rethink this visit.

Beta. There is a point where our adult children are responsible for themselves more than we are responsible for them. Even if they are mentally ill. When we take responsibility for them, when they are acting aggressively to us and to others, we risk enabling this behavior. If they go out on a limb, they are responsible. We can't crawl out after them. We just can't. Not only because we risk falling. But if they are out there on a limb, they risk hurting others. If we climb out there with them, we put ourselves into it too.

You know that my son is mentally ill, too. Our kids share several factors. This, they are adopted and they are biracial black and white. In what I have written, I have walked the walk. As emotional and overprotective and weak as I can be, with potential for violence, and self-harm I have done as I write.

Josh has crossed a line, where you can't follow him. This can change, but only if one way or another he stabilizes and becomes safe.

 

[Beta]

Thank you all for your wise words. I tried twice today to contact the police officer from CIT (Crisis Intervention Team) but had to leave a voicemail. I'll keep trying. I really would like to forward the text messages to this gentleman and get his opinion. My therapist read his text messages, and she said they were classic for someone on drugs.

I told my sister last night, "You do whatever you have to do to be safe," and I meant it. Surprisingly, she is thinking that she and her husband will allow him to stay until after Christmas and be out by the first of the year. I just don't see that happening. I think he'll be gone before that. Her husband told mine that if Josh were to become violent, they will call the police and record his behavior on a phone as evidence.

I think I have reached a turning point. That's not to say that I don't hurt...it hurts like the dickens, but I've given 29 years of my life to this human being, and he cares nothing about me or my husband and has no gratitude or appreciation for anything that has been done for him. It's time to pick up the pieces of my life and start putting them back together again. To spend years in despair and crippling grief and continuing to enable would be to be irresponsible with the life God has given me. I have to keep reminding myself of that. I also have to stop the wishful thinking and the false belief that someone in there is the "real" Josh, if I can just find a way to reach down and pull him out. This is the real Josh, at least while he is untreated. He is not capable of loving or caring for anyone.
Josh is not planning on being in their home while I'm there, and don't believe he will show up, unless of course I'm offering him money, and even then, I think he would just insist I leave it behind rather than see me. I'm going with the goal of repairing my relationship with my sister and getting to know her (new) husband and her grandbaby. Once I've gone, I will know that I have truly done everything I could have done to try to help him and show him that I love him.

I agree about the intervention. I think it could be a good idea, but only if it was done by a professional, and only if he was given some pretty strong consequences for not consenting to be evaluated. I would never attempt to do something like that on our own.

 

[Copabanana]

I've given 29 years of my life to this human being, and he cares nothing about me or my husband and has no gratitude or appreciation

He is mentally ill and probably on drugs. There is no way that he is going to show gratitude or appreciation in that state.

This is the real Josh, at least while he is untreated.

You're right.

someone in there is the "real" Josh

I believe Josh is in there. But he is not running the show. More and more my "real" son is showing up. His kindness. His empathy. His love. But there is still a whole lot of the other person, too.

That Josh is in there, does not mean that your choices should change. You need to be centered in YOU. Not in Josh. That is what is shifting, now. Josh will have to stabilize himself through the help of public resources whether residential treatment, or mental health or 12 step groups, there are many options. By us letting go and letting them experience the life that is the natural consequence of their behavior and choices, they have a chance. By trying to play both parts, theirs and ours, we confuse them and ourselves. You're doing the right thing. I think.

Bravo Beta.

 

[RN0441]

I agree with Copa. I don't think he is able to see that you are doing anything FOR him and that is his state of mind right now. It may not be his state of mind forever.

I agree that I would meet away from the home. I think you have to call a duck a duck and right now he is threatening and I would be terrified personally.

My son was never aggressive towards us when he was on pills thankfully. He is a very gentle person when not on pills and that is who we have again in our home.

However I did, through therapy, detach from him when he was hurting me. I also have detached from others in my life that have hurt me. I did not realize my therapy would enable me to do that. It took time and it was very hard but it did work. I also have a strong faith which grew tremendously during this time.

It's okay for us to protect ourselves emotionally and physically.

 

[JayPee]

Beta,

I have to say I too agree with the ladies on this one. Understandable you want to meet with your sister and rekindle your relationship but I think even if (as we would hope and pray wouldn't happen) he didn't physically threaten you I'm betting that he might likely verbally abuse you. Are you ready for more of that?

I know how your heart is aching to see your son and you wish he was all better. You, just as I have done and others, already forgive the horrific things our adult children have said to us but I'll reiterate that it is ok to forgive but do not be so quick to want to reconcile with those who are abusing us. It's necessary that we give them time away from us to hopefully, have space and time to think about things. We cannot keep condoning their bad behavior by immediately running to them with open arms. That hug and love you want to give him when you see him, I fear will not be reciprocated at this time. He has not healed yet or perhaps, not even begun to realize he needs to heal. If he's like my sons, they think I'm the problem. They are not even slightly close to healing and therefore, I'm keeping my distance from them until I see or hear of good changes that have occurred in their lives for at least 6 months.

This is the hardest part to wait. I'm sure you know that even for us that God is ready to give us good things but would he reward us if we weren't living correctly? If we lead lives of immorality, sin, verbally hurting people etc. God would not say, hey here's everything you ever dreamed of. No, he would patiently wait for us to learn from the consequences of our bad ways that this isn't the way to go.

We just don't want our kids to suffer and feel hurt, lonely and unloved but maybe just maybe, pausing and letting them sit in their sinfullness and bad behaviors will cause some awakening.

 

[Blindsided]

I tried twice today to contact the police officer from CIT (Crisis Intervention Team) but had to leave a voicemail.

I wish they would respond.

My therapist read his text messages, and she said they were classic for someone on drugs.

For sure, but I am not sure your therapist understands the dynamics and instability of personality/conduct disorders. Or, like my therapist said, I am here for you, I am not treating your daughter. At the time, I really just wanted answers on how to fix my daughter. It wasnt until I starting reading everything I could get my hands on about personality disorder that I realized what he was doing.

Sorry, I havent figured out this quote thing yet.

I told
my sister last night, "You do whatever you have to do to be safe," and I meant it.

Good. Is there a way you can meet your sister in a neutral place? It is understandable that Josh could see the meeting as a conspiracy against him.
[/QUOTE]

I have reached a turning point. That's not to say that I don't hurt...it hurts like the dickens.

I think you have too. It does hurt. By far, it is the worst thing I have ever experienced in my life and there have been many (as is the case for so many of us). This is like an unending grieving process, but I know from experience, I am the only one who can overcome.

I may have said this already, but WiseChoices gave me advice I can apply. When I start to imagine my daughters condition, my internal dialogue is, "Sending my love, letting go and letting God." Maybe it will help you too.

I love this quote from Harriet Beecher Stowe

"When you get into a tight place and everything goes against you, till it seems as though you could not hang on a minute longer, never give up then, for that is just the place and time that the tide will turn."

We really cannot predict what our children will do. This quote inspires me to have hope.

Sending love and light.

 

[Copabanana]

It is understandable that Josh could see the meeting as a conspiracy against him.

I agree with blindsided here. I also agree with what she writes about therapist, who have never met our children, opining about their diagnoses or their potential.

In my own life, when therapists or friends who are therapists opine and diagnosis and prognosticate about my son, the effect has been hurtful and irresponsible. I agree with blindsided that a therapist's role is to help you deal with Josh, not to make an assessment as to his dynamics and functioning. It's hard to stay on our side of the court, but all of us need to try. That includes therapists, too.

Even if all of Josh's behavior is just posturing, and/or fueled by drugs, it does not make it less dangerous. Somebody has considered him to be bipolar. That means that his behavior in a manic state could be fueled and directed by emotion, and could also be distorted by psychosis. Add to the tinder of whatever drug he might be using, and you have an x factor to an incalculable degree to fuel an out of control fire.

We have no way of knowing just what is going on in his mind. Because drugs, Axis I Mental Illness, (such as bipolar) and the possible influence of Axis II diagnoses (such as a personality disorder) become a witches brew. In my view, no mental health professional could accurately and reliably predict that there would be no danger here.

"When you get into a tight place and everything goes against you, till it seems as though you could not hang on a minute longer, never give up then, for that is just the place and time that the tide will turn."

I love this so much. I have tried to seek this space. That I have these words now, to try to live within, is a real gift. I am inspired by this. Thank you.

 

[Blindsided]

You are so welcome. And I agree. Regardless of Josh's diagnosis, the threats are serious.

I find strength in the words of many wise people. If we hold on tight to our own sanity, we have the courage and the hope we need to survive, regardless of the situation.

In another thread I just said I became paralyzed by letting my daughter control MY narrative. I am regaining my strength because of this forum. I wish I would have found it sooner, but what matters is that I am here now.

I am sorry for the circumstances that bring us together but grateful.

 

[WiseChoices]

I agree with blindsided here. I also agree with what she writes about your therapist. In my experience, virtually NEVER do therapists or friends (in my case, I have friends who are therapists) who hear about our situation 2nd hand, have the information they need to opine and diagnosis and prognosticate. Yet they believe they DO.

In my own life, when therapists or friends who are therapists opine and diagnosis and prognosticate about my son, the effect has been hurtful and irresponsible. I agree with blindsided that a therapist's role is to help you deal with Josh, not to make an assessment as to his dynamics and functioning. It's hard to stay for us to stay on our side of the court, but all of us need to try. That includes therapists, too.

Even if all of Josh's behavior is just posturing, and/or fueled by drugs, it does not make it less dangerous. Somebody has considered him to be bipolar. That means that his behavior in a manic state could be fueled and directed by emotion, and could also be distorted by psychosis. Add to the tinder of whatever drug he might be using, and you have an x factor to an incalculable degree to fuel an out of control fire.

We have no way of knowing just what is going on in his mind. Because drugs, Axis I Mental Illness, (such as bipolar) and the possible influence of Axis II diagnoses (such as a personality disorder) become a witches brew. In my view, no mental health professional could accurately and reliably predict that there would be no danger here.
I love this so much. I have tried to seek this space. That I have these words now, to try to live within, is a real gift. I am inspired by this. Thank you.

I am so glad you said that about therapists . The one my son is seeing told me about my daughter being Borderline (BPD) just after one meeting with me and one story I told of my daughter's behavior. She has never even met her.

 

[WiseChoices]

You are so welcome. And I agree. Regardless of Josh's diagnosis, the threats are serious.

I find strength in the words of many wise people. If we hold on tight to our own sanity, we have the courage and the hope we need to survive, regardless of the situation.

In another thread I just said I became paralyzed by letting my daughter control MY narrative. I am regaining my strength because of this forum. I wish I would have found it sooner, but what matters is that I am here now.

I am sorry for the circumstances that bring us together but grateful.

I also allow my daughter to control my narrative all the time. I need to stop giving my Power away to her and hold on to my own truths.

 

[JayPee]

Yes, I agree Wise. We also can refer to the Power of Law:

You only have the power to change yourself.
You can't change another person.
To see another person as the problem to be fixed is to give that person power over you and your well-being.
Because you cannot change another person, you are out of control.
The real problem lies in how you are relating to the problem person.
You are the one in pain and only you have the power to fix it.
You must refuse to allow that person to affect you.

This is the beginning of self-control.

 

[BusynMember1]

Although Kay will always be a sadness in our hearts, it is a relief to give her so much less.

I am not a big fan of psychiatry, having seen people in my family and my husbands being both misdiagnosed and overmedicated. I can see Kay being diagnosed with attachment disorder, ASPD, Borderline or bipolar. Or all of them. I dont see bipolar in Kay as I have a relative who gets very manic, even on medications, and I don't see Kay as being manic. Does the diagnosis matter?

Our kids seem pretty much the same in variying degrees. They are stubborn and defiant. They don't like rules. They, for whatever reason, do not adult normally. They don't crave normal independence. No matter how old we get, they don't worry about us the way normal adult kids do. My normal two always worry that we doing too much or that my husband with diabetes is eating well etc. They atr different and the same. In the end they break our hearts and don't seem to care.

I appreciate everyones thoughts.


.

 

[JayPee]

Busy,

I agree. Both my sons are not currently on any medications. Younger son took himself off by his own accord but honestly he was just as bad on it! Older son, I have no idea what his issues are but I assure you he doesn't think he has any problems and would not voluntarily submit to any diagnosis, undoubtedly. But truth be told even if they were to get diagnosed it's not as if they would adhere to properly taking medications, follow through with therapy appointments etc. At least, speaking for myself, that's the case.

Younger son, did adhere to going to therapy once a month but I assure you that was because it was the only way they'd continue renewing his prescription which I believe he was addicted to. I believe, no I' know for certain he was taking way too much at one time and usually was out of his medicine 1/2 way through the month. He'd tell me he was giving to others who needed them too. Not really sure what the truth was. Now, from what I gather he's self-medicating with alcohol. MJ used to be his first choice.

I keep trying to remember what you mentioned...they don't like rules, they don't adult normally, don't crave independence, don't worry about us like "normal" adult kids do. I do not understand why, but I just need to "accept it".

 

[RN0441]

My son was also over-medicated by a psychiatrist who gave him benzos which started the madness.

He too was always out of pills way too soon. I'd hide them and he'd find them. No matter where they were. He was actually abusing them and would sell his ADD medications for weed.

The doctor said he needed them even though he was abusing them and he knew it. My husband said no more pills!! I didn't listen.

I was so stupid.

 

[JayPee]

I don't know if this makes sense to anyone else, but learning/comparing similarities is like I'm peeling back an onion. There are layers of the craziness of the behavior and issues that I kind of just rolled with while they're happening. I suppose this was denial (and sometimes I think exhaustion from the situation) for me but it feels good exposing it, peeling it back and understanding what were truths and what were lies.

 

[RN0441]

I don't know if this makes sense to anyone else, but learning/comparing similarities is like I'm peeling back an onion. There are layers of the craziness of the behavior and issues that I kind of just rolled with while they're happening. I suppose this was denial (and sometimes I think exhaustion from the situation) for me but it feels good exposing it, peeling it back and understanding what were truths and what were lies.

Yes totally agree. I can see it so clearly now but when you're in it and you think you're helping and then later find out it was a bad decision and it actually made things worse it's a big face palm/aha moment and what the hell was I thinking?? Mass confusion!!