Round and Round we go...sorry long

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by Wiped Out, Jun 22, 2011.

  1. Wiped Out

    Wiped Out Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I swear my kids just don't learn. husband has had it and I've had it. I think we'd both like to leave but then who would watch the children?

    The other day I posted how much better easy child/difficult child was doing in general except for with difficult child. difficult child is talking non stop these days, being gross, and generally annoying.

    Another of difficult child's bad habits these days is putting his hands down his pants around others, sometimes he is even pulling his pants down. He is scratching a lot not playing with his privates (at least not when his pants are down).

    Today I had a really nice day with-easy child/difficult child. I picked her up from summer school, she came with me to get my hair cut and then we went to lunch. After that I took her to her dentist appointment. On the way home I stopped to pick up difficult child from day camp.

    He was singing along with the radio and a song easy child/difficult child really likes came on. difficult child kept singing and she yelled at him to stop (really he wasn't doing anything wrong-maybe being a bit annoying). I told him to please stop so we could hopefully prevent WW 203 from breaking out. He started whistling. Again, he shouldn't have but it wasn't that loud. easy child/difficult child screamed at him that he ruined everything.

    We get home. husband is reading in our room. I plopped down on the bed because I'm exhausted. difficult child came in the room and was bothering us some. We ignored him and I closed my eyes and husband was still reading. Apparently he had pulled down his pants and was scratching (his butt not his privates). easy child/difficult child walked by, saw him, and screamed (at the top of her lungs) that he needed to pull up his pants. difficult child swore at her (which he shouldn't have) and then easy child/difficult child ran into our room and kicked him. Sigh... He went after her, she locked her door and he kicked it (it already had been damaged from something else and this ruined it further). She comes after him. He locks himself in our bedroom so she starts kicking his door until she puts a hole in it:(

    husband finally blew. Things calmed down a bit. Then after dinner easy child/difficult child got upset that difficult child sat in the couch on "her spot" even though she wasn't sitting there. husband told her where did she expect him to sit? She screamed at husband to move some stuff off the couch of difficult children. husband screamed back and went upstairs. He's had and said he can't keep living like this (don't blame him neither can I). Then easy child/difficult child called difficult child a fat *ss. I told her to go up to her room. Took me telling her if she didn't her consequence would be a lot worse.

    In the meantime difficult child is being a difficult child putting coins in water bottles, throwing coins, and generally being annoying. I told him he needed to go to his room (that took awhile as well).

    Then easy child/difficult child comes out of her room and starts harassing him. He had put a hallway light on (which we usually have on upstairs) and she wanted it off. I stayed perfectly calm but explained the light needed to stay on. She just started screaming that it needed to be off. I tried to tell her she needs to work on taking out her anger in more positive ways, etc... She was still mad at me about the light. She kept saying rude things, I tried to disengage but didn't let her shut off the light because then difficult child would be blowing and the light should be on. She finally screamed at the top of the lungs that she hates me and I'm stupid.

    Oh yeah and the window were open the whole time so I'm sure over half the neighborhood heard her. When I explained the windows were open she screamed she didn't give a *rap!:bag:I wanted to just hide!

    I feel guilty complaining much because things aren't like they were when difficult child was violent on a daily basis but both kids are driving us nuts-easy child/difficult child and difficult child both.

    Thank you so much for listening to me vent and if you made it this far you deserve some chocolate! Any thoughts or ideas?
  2. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I have 8 acres...want to come bury them alive? Gee...Im surprised you havent seriously kicked the moon! My only other thought is duct tape.
  3. SearchingForRainbows

    SearchingForRainbows Active Member

    Wiped Out,

    Please try not to feel guilty for "venting!" You have way too much on your plate with all the "garbage" that goes on between your kids. My first thought is that I really think it would be a good idea to separate them for awhile. If at all possible, I think easy child/difficult child should live with family/friends while going to summer school and not wait until it's over. easy child/difficult child is way too old and should know better then to stoop to difficult child's level. She seems to get enjoyment out of watching him blow up. This is really upsetting! difficult child sounds alot like my difficult child 2 in the fact that if difficult child 2 is aggravated by someone/something, then his absolute "best" difficult child behavior comes out. Of course this only makes things so much worse!

    You and husband should not have to live like this! easy child/difficult child and difficult child should not have to live like this either! It isn't healthy for anyone! I know you've spoken to easy child/difficult child many times about leaving her brother alone, not creating problems. She refuses to listen to you, to your husband. in my humble opinion, it is time for her to move out. I'm not saying that difficult child doesn't create chaos, just that he has more issues, is much younger, and has less control over his behavior than she does. By now, she should be mature enough to walk away from the petty things. I'm also concerned about the continued physical violence between them.

    As far as difficult child putting his hands down his pants, it has got to be stopped! He is way too old to be doing this around others! I'm not sure how to handle this. I think I would start by talking to his therapist/psychiatrist. I'm sure he realizes how inappropriate this is and I wish I had a clue as to why he continues to do this. Wish I had a better answer for you!

    Thinking of you and really sorry you're having such a miserable evening! Hugs... SFR
  4. tiredmommy

    tiredmommy Site Moderator

    Sharon- easy child/difficult child is way out of line for a girl graduating from high school... she's an adult and needs to know that she ***assaulted*** difficult child when she got physical and damaging property (the door) is also illegal. As for difficult child, his psychiatrist/therapist needs to know that he's spending way too much time with his hands in his pants. I think he needs a goal to be rewarded for only touching private areas when he's in private.
  5. MuM_of_OCD_kiddo

    MuM_of_OCD_kiddo New Member

    Hi Sharon, I feel ya! Have you considered that your 13 yr old may have a yeast infection, jock itch, heat rash or some such going on, if he is forever scratching his "nether regions"? Is there a possibility that he might have had some se_ual exposure or adventure and picked something undesirable up? Might be worth checking into, just to eliminate this as a potential reason, before talking about behavioral issues.

    That door business - I've been through the door kicking and hole punching with mine [sheetrock in our case in our previous house] - I told him straight up - you put a hole into a door - any door - and I will take yours off your room and use it as a replacement for the one you damaged, and = until you earn the money to buy a replacement door - you will be doorless.

    When he started eye-ing the windows and french doors trying to come up with the nerve to break them, I told him the following - you break one, and I will take your windows off the frame in your room, close of your AC vent and you will suffer [fortunately he wasn't smart enough to make the connection that potentially without a door and no windows in his room the entire house would be miserably hot or cold] - but those two threats kept the house damage to a minimum in our old house. We've moved since and are renting a place until I can afford to buy a used MH for our rural country property. This house has an unfinished and uninsulated basement with huge old wooden doors [garage door size]. When we first moved here, he was still trapped in his worst of all times Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) rituals and related anger issues - and I made the following clear to him - if he would do as much as damage a single wall, door etc = he would be moving into the basement. We got close once - and I made him starting to pack his things to go down below [you can't access the basement through the house, you need to walk around to get in] and I did make him spend a night outside in the backyard [since he refused to go into the basement].

    He had just turned 17 at that time - and lo and behold - me being tired, irritable and fed up with all the terrible issues we have been dealing with since age 14 - helped him pull his s**t together. While he still has some minor Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) rituals and issues, the threat of living in the basement motivated him to begin working on dealing with it [what 3 years of talking until I'm blue in the face, vitamins, and all types of literature has not managed to accomplish]. While he is not perfect, and still occasionally has days where I am tempted to put him out, it also worries him enough to try harder to deal with his fears, anxieties, and he is approachable to discuss issues and problems in a more adult fashion now. I know if I had continued the soft supportive and loving approach, we'd still be in the same circumstances than we were before or worse off.

    I realize that Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) does not fall into the same category of your sons issues, and the tough love approach may not have helped with mine when he was that age and just got started with his first rituals etc. It should get you somewhere with your older daughter though - at 17 you should be able to expect a certain amount of maturity, especially since she is not as troubled as your younger difficult child is?

    With two of them acting like this, you will soon not have any sanity left, if you do not detach a bit and give serious consequences to the behavior they are displaying. The tough love approach saved my sanity, helped me get myself back together, as it allowed me to deal with my own anger towards the distructiveness of my son. I regret that I cannot show my love for him freely the way I used to when he was younger, but he sees this as a softening stance and will try to take advantage of it, so a bit detachment goes a long way in our case of keeping him motivated to behave appropriately and to continue to work on dealing with his issues. Put your foot down, set new rules, consequences when they are broken - and most importantly - follow through with them. You will have to leave your comfort zone to get somewhere with this, but you really aren't comfortable right now anyways, right?
  6. wintak

    wintak New Member

    I feel for you...we've had nights like that.

    Currently, this summer, difficult child is in summer camp and when he is home, I'm trying as hard as I can to keep easy child's and difficult child's apart. Right now he's in his "happy place" so that helps, but it's really helping easy child lately giving her some breathing room. It's not easy, I know, but can you keep them apart a little bit?
  7. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It


    As difficult child is scratching, he likely needs some treatment to stop the itching. Most likely miconazole cream (like monistat - the 7 day kind) but you can use the shorter versions. They won't fix it any sooner. Plus having him sit in a cool bath with baking soda in the water will help. If it is his tush as well as the front area, he needs something all the way around. Most jock itch truly is a yeast infection on the skin according to the dermatologist I have known. You can use lamisil but it is a lot more expensive for less of it. It is safe to put on any skin.

    I would sit easy child/difficult child down and tell her the very next time she hits him or a door or anything you are calling the police and pressing charges. I would probably tell difficult child that I would do it to him also. I realize he is hypersexual and you have dealt with that for a long time, but in my opinion your husband needs to get a lot more involved. it sounds like he ignored things until he started yelling, then stomped off. Somehow you need to get through that difficult child NEEDS him to set a strong, CALM and firm example. WHen the hands go down the pants, husband needs to addressit firmly. If he doesn't and the pants come down, or they just come down and anyone else is in a room, a strong message needs to be sent.

    Not so much because it is wrong to touch yourself, but because he is going to start being arrested for indecent exposure soon. I am NOT kidding. School may call the police or anyone on a street might. If windows are open and others see him doing this in a room with you and/or husband, you could be in huge trouble.

    But easy child/difficult child is so far out of line it isn't funny. Have you done a random drug test? Here summer school is one of the easiest places to get drugs and booze for teens. Other places are easy to get them also. At her age, this stuff must stop. She is basically an adult and hitting a 13yo isn't okay. Neither is property damage - and you CAN press charges.

    Have you considered asking for advice at the dv center in your area? in my opinion easy child/difficult child needs to get some therapy there. What she is doing, not letting him sing, whistle, say, do anything, sit anywhere, hitting him, damaging his door, this is ALL domestic violence and abusive behavior. If she wants any privileges, she needs to be going to group and indiv counseling at the dv center. The groups for abusers, not for victims at this point.

    Just suggestions. I am sure it was an awful evening and if even part of one suggestion helps then I am glad I posted them. not wanting/being ready to try them is okay too. I just know I was shocked at how effective the therapy for dv was. Being called an abuser is a shock and might be a wakeup call, as would calling the police, that she had better start acting like an adult because there are big consequences. If difficult child calls 911 because she hits him, she will likely go to jail. regardless of what you say unless he hit her first. Simply because their ages.
  8. Wiped Out

    Wiped Out Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Janet-I told husband about your offer and we both laughed (which we needed at that point).

    SFR-I agree about the separating. Once she turns 18 (and finishes summer school) it may have to happen. difficult child does need to stop!!

    TM-We told easy child/difficult child exactly that! I hope some of it sinks in! Good idea about a reward for difficult child!

    Mum-First off, welcome to the board!! Please start a new thread and introduce yourself to everyone:) I have been wondering if difficult child might have jock itch or some other infection because I know he doesn't clean himself as well as he should when he goes to the bathroom. No chance of sexual exposure. He is always supervised-never out on his own-only has one friend. I like your suggestions for easy child/difficult child (of course, living in our basement she would like since it's finished and has a tv). I think we do need to work off her damage to the door.

    Wintak-We try to keep them separated as much as possible!! difficult child is in summer camp (day camp) for 5 weeks this summer and easy child/difficult child has summer school for 6 weeks. Even so even 5 minutes together lately is too much.

    Susie-Thanks for the cream ideas. I will be checking into them. We did that with easy child/difficult child last night (the talk about calling the police), difficult child has known that for a long time we will call if he starts being violent again. I like the dv idea and will have to do some serious thinking about that! husband didn't realize difficult child was doing what he was doing he was reading. I think the reason he blew is he was sick. Every time we notice difficult child doing this we talk to him about it.

    I came in the room the other day and saw difficult child with his pants down (scratching) in front of the living room window!!! He has only been doing the scratching part when he thinks others are not looking. However, he also has his hands down his pants a lot!!
  9. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not

    That scratching stuff would drive me up a tree!

    Is is possible to demonstrate for him how bad it looks? Maybe video him or something.... ask him what he would think if he saw somebody doing this on an elevator, for example...

    Meanwhile, easy child should know better than to stir up more drama! Ugh!

    Hope things settle down a bit for you.
  10. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    I think the DV thing would maybe shock her into seeing what she is doing. Many females flat out do not believe they women can be charged with domestic violence no matter what they do, esp young ones. Learning that THEY can be abusers, not just men, can be very very eye opening.

    Esp if she is presented with the punishments for dv, including restrictions on her possible jobs as an adult. Even if you never want one of those jobs it is startling to hear how those charges can limit your possibilities.

    I also suggest trying to help her learn how to identify how her body feels as she is getting angry. I found that the physical signs of anger building were easier to identify than than the feelings much of the time. I could better control my actions by paying attention to the changes in my body.
  11. Fran

    Fran Former desparate mom

    Your kids remind me of those couples who constantly bicker and fight and stay in a toxic relationship. Those couples don't see it as negative and damaging as those around them do.
    These two don't like each other. Frankly, I don't think difficult child has that much self realization or reflection to care much about easy child/difficult child. His self absorption and unusual thinking doesn't seem conducive to empathy or even that he is offensive. There is very little self regulation.
    I think easy child/difficult child just hates what chaos difficult child brings to your lives. difficult child DOES tend to ruin everything. difficult child/easy child speaks the truth there. Tolerance in a sibling has limits. She isn't handling it well and I doubt it will improve until she is away from him. They are toxic and difficult child is a huge trigger. Pulling his pants down and playing with his butt or any other parts is provocative and guaranteed to have a blow up from either easy child or you guys. I don't think her outrage at his behavior is abnormal or excessive and is warranted. How she channels her anger and outrage leaves a lot to be desired.
    I feel for her. I think she has lived with a sibling who is way more than annoying. He has abnormal and some perverse behaviors. How many years did she have to live with it before your easy child daughter started down the road of difficult child?
    You and husband chose to adopt a child with special needs. She didn't have a choice. She has a multitude of issues she deals with but difficult child hasn't allowed her to learn better coping techniques or she is so disgusted with her home life that she doesn't want to learn anymore. I suspect the fallout from a lifetime with difficult child will leave her angry and bitter not to mention not anxious to be back home when difficult child is there.
    I'm sorry to say all of this but she was a wonderful easy child daughter until adolescence. I know my easy child has scars from the trauma of having a difficult child brother in his early years and it wasn't to the level of intensity that your family lives with. I'm sure she sees nothing likeable in her brother or how she feels her parents tolerate him.

    She has to learn that despite difficult child's behavior, he is not a throw away. We all try to limit the fall out. Hopefully she will understand.
  12. Wiped Out

    Wiped Out Well-Known Member Staff Member

    DF-The scratching stuff does drive us up the wall. Maybe a video is a good idea because nothing we seem to do gets him to stop.

    Susie-We definitely have spoken with her about the signs that she is getting angry and recognizing it as has her therapist. Maybe she needs to hear it from others too.

    Fran-You are partially right; easy child/difficult child cannot stand difficult child (understandably so). However, difficult child keeps trying to win her approval, he actually does like her. difficult child is generally empathetic (unfortunately after the fact-or in situations that don't directly involve him- and does show remorse), however, he is very self absorbed and does not have a lot of self regulation. I completely agree with you that easy child/difficult child's outrage is normal, it's how she is handling it. We have tried to get her to handle it in a better way but it may be as you say until she is away from difficult child things won't get better. I'm sure much of what has made her a easy child/difficult child is as you say. She does look at how we deal with difficult child as tolerating. I'm sure there are many things we should have done differently in regards to easy child/difficult child. We've always tried to take extra time to do things with her as mom/daughter time or dad/daughter time. We try to separate them as much as possible. I really wish I knew what the answer was. Sigh...
  13. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    While I think Fran has many good points, esp as I was the sib of a difficult child and know how badly it affected me, I still think her violence has to be addressed very firmly. NOT because it is so out of line, but because she is not likely to be able to keep it just to difficult child or just in the home. If she goes off like this in public, or to anyone else, she is going to face assault charges and/or destruction of property charges. those could severely limit her options for many many years. NOt sure what she wants for a career, but it would tend to rule out jobs in education, daycare, anything with kids, anything with security risks/implications, even most military jobs.

    After she leaves home you may want to make separate holidays for her, ones where difficult child isn't there. May not be possible until he leaves home, but please allow her that relationship with you separate from him if she needs it. I know that my mother's pressure to be around my brother has damaged my relationship with her badly. And her relationship with my kids. We all feel that unless we are willing to spend time with the person who abuses all of us then she doesn't want to spend time with us much. As if we are not worthy of enjoying unless he is there. I know on most levels she doesn't think this, but it IS what her actions say anyway. I don't want you to end up with that block between you and easy child/difficult child. (you meaning mom and dad).
  14. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I think Fran has some very good points. My boys were quite effected by growing up with Cory. Some good, some bad. I think if you have some way to separate them so that she has time away from him, that would be a great thing.