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<blockquote data-quote="Copabanana" data-source="post: 667505" data-attributes="member: 18958"><p>Had Joseph remained trapped in shame because of how his family defined him, he could never have recovered himself. Because self-definition would have been impossible. You were defined socially. </p><p></p><p>When Joseph began to have an inner conversation, he came to have the means to define himself, independent of anybody else. His father's or brother's definitions had lost their power. It was as if he learned another language, and was no longer responsive to the old one.</p><p></p><p>There is never change possible in the language of our families. That is a shame-based language. As long as we think of ourselves within that system, we remain enslaved to the system. There is no way out for us.</p><p></p><p>I disagree Cedar. Joseph did not cry because he felt freed by Jacob's words. He felt sadness because he saw that his family was still trapped in their old way of thinking. In abasement thinking. Joseph saw he was alone. That is why he cried, I think.</p><p>I think Joseph had left behind, long before, the betrayal of his brothers and father. I think he cried for their limitation, that still endured. Like Serenity's sadness for herself, because she has no real sister anymore. Her illusions are gone. Her sadness is for herself, because she will never have her...and her sadness is for her sister...who remains so limited and will likely always be. She does not cry because her sister can define her. Like Joseph, Serenity's internal change in the way she sees her life and herself means her sister cannot, and can never again define her.</p><p>See, Serenity and Daphne are still working in a shame-based culture, where abasement is the only way to respond to social breaches, to restore relationship.</p><p></p><p>With Serenity it no longer works. For Serenity shunning is a word that no longer exists in her new language about herself. She (still imperfectly but better and better) has rendered herself impervious to the language of shame.</p><p>Yes. To wit, Serenity.</p><p>Joseph did not have to reject his brothers or to punish them. He chose to in order to educate them, so that they would be changed. </p><p></p><p>This is where the works (that were above and now are not) are pertinent. We will always hold as wrong bad deeds. We have the capacity to differentiate between bad deeds and the actor that has committed them. I believe I have done this with my mother. What has been hard is doing it for myself.</p><p></p><p>It is not that I believe consciously that I did wrong, bad things. It is because I am holding myself responsible as if I did. This is an opportunity to change myself. To begin to learn mercy for myself.</p><p></p><p>When I went to my mother I seem to have taken on again her language of seeing myself in relation to her and my sister, perhaps too.</p><p></p><p>I guess the process for me is returning to my own language or learning a new one, in relationship to myself. While I integrate my life with my mother and sister. I do not believe I have ever done so.</p><p></p><p>Like Joseph, I went to Egypt and I built a life there. I never had to deal with the brothers and Jacob until one day they showed up at my house.</p><p></p><p>I cried, too.</p><p>This is an earthshaking distinction that I need to understand better.</p><p>My Mother and especially yours, Cedar, come to mind here.</p><p>Or what we think of ourselves.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Copabanana, post: 667505, member: 18958"] Had Joseph remained trapped in shame because of how his family defined him, he could never have recovered himself. Because self-definition would have been impossible. You were defined socially. When Joseph began to have an inner conversation, he came to have the means to define himself, independent of anybody else. His father's or brother's definitions had lost their power. It was as if he learned another language, and was no longer responsive to the old one. There is never change possible in the language of our families. That is a shame-based language. As long as we think of ourselves within that system, we remain enslaved to the system. There is no way out for us. I disagree Cedar. Joseph did not cry because he felt freed by Jacob's words. He felt sadness because he saw that his family was still trapped in their old way of thinking. In abasement thinking. Joseph saw he was alone. That is why he cried, I think. I think Joseph had left behind, long before, the betrayal of his brothers and father. I think he cried for their limitation, that still endured. Like Serenity's sadness for herself, because she has no real sister anymore. Her illusions are gone. Her sadness is for herself, because she will never have her...and her sadness is for her sister...who remains so limited and will likely always be. She does not cry because her sister can define her. Like Joseph, Serenity's internal change in the way she sees her life and herself means her sister cannot, and can never again define her. See, Serenity and Daphne are still working in a shame-based culture, where abasement is the only way to respond to social breaches, to restore relationship. With Serenity it no longer works. For Serenity shunning is a word that no longer exists in her new language about herself. She (still imperfectly but better and better) has rendered herself impervious to the language of shame. Yes. To wit, Serenity. Joseph did not have to reject his brothers or to punish them. He chose to in order to educate them, so that they would be changed. This is where the works (that were above and now are not) are pertinent. We will always hold as wrong bad deeds. We have the capacity to differentiate between bad deeds and the actor that has committed them. I believe I have done this with my mother. What has been hard is doing it for myself. It is not that I believe consciously that I did wrong, bad things. It is because I am holding myself responsible as if I did. This is an opportunity to change myself. To begin to learn mercy for myself. When I went to my mother I seem to have taken on again her language of seeing myself in relation to her and my sister, perhaps too. I guess the process for me is returning to my own language or learning a new one, in relationship to myself. While I integrate my life with my mother and sister. I do not believe I have ever done so. Like Joseph, I went to Egypt and I built a life there. I never had to deal with the brothers and Jacob until one day they showed up at my house. I cried, too. This is an earthshaking distinction that I need to understand better. My Mother and especially yours, Cedar, come to mind here. Or what we think of ourselves. [/QUOTE]
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