Showdown at the OK Corale

Marguerite

Active Member
I guess it depends on how you look at it.

I agree, especially when they're younger, kids can play pretty rough. Or if they get upset, they can lash out physically. But generally they do learn fast that it is not acceptable. However, when we're talking about a kid with impulse control issues especially, they take longer to be able to put the brakes on themselves.

Self-control is a hard lesson for a kid to learn, but it is a vital one. If we can't teach our kids this fast enough, the big bad world will not be so kind about it.

We should never underestimate the effect of intense frustration!

Marg
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
I guess everything depends on how you look at it, Marguerite :)

Your post made me think, or realise, that my standard of judgement for J is relative to him, not to what is "normal"... MWM is "accusing" me (lol) of denying how violent he is... but in fact I judge him by the way he has evolved. When he was two or so he was constantly hitting other kids to get a toy he wanted, etc... when I went out to public playgrounds, etc, there was often some incident or other with an enraged parent accosting me because J had hit her little boy (even then it was usually boys not girls he got physical with...)

But now? This almost never happens. He plays at fighting with other boys but he does not lash out at other kids any more in anger. He has learnt something.

With me, he used to scratch, kick, pull my hair, hit me frenetically when he was in a rage.... now he will usually make a gesture of hitting me, obviously restraining himself with difficulty. But still restraining himself.

So to me this is fantastic progress!! A normal parent might look at all this and think it is all very worrying still... but my point of reference has changed completely. To me, compared to what he was, J is no longer violent... I am not judging by some outside yardstick but just by J's one... I think that's what happens when you have one of these different children! :)
 

Marguerite

Active Member
You are right, it is amazing progress. I look at difficult child 3 and also see great progress. He was a huge handful when a toddler, and continued to be difficult (although always improving) as he got old enough for school. Learning self-control was difficult, aggravated by bullying at school which was at its worst when he was about 8 to 10 years old. Whatever progress we made was undermined at school, although he did hold things together better at school than at home. He still raged in both places, his frustration was a big factor. Then he learned to not hit back but at a cost - he was not hitting back because he knew it was wrong, but because he felt he deserved the beatings he was getting, and if he fought back he would get more beatings.

When I look back I see how far he has come - his is miraculous.

But I also have to keep my perspective - he is 17 now and has to learn to live in the big wide world as his siblings have had to learn. And although he is amazing, he is nowhere near where he should be, compared to other kids his age. And THAT is what we are working on now - trying to identify where the gap is, between him and his peers, and trying to help him spackle the gap. because, sure as eggs, we can't leave things as they are.

I think that's what MWM has been trying to focus on - where your son is, not compared to how he was before, but compared to what society will expect of a child his age. And that is a hard one sometimes to identify, because we tend to submerge ourselves in our kids and to look at them comparatively requires us to step back and look at different things.

Marg
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Sure, Marguerite... you must feel some sense of satisfaction and also trepidation as you look at your adolescent son, about to embark on the journey of adulthood.
Where I am, and I guess others like me, are right now is in a place where we do not yet KNOW what is happening, how much of the doggedness, stubborness and "spiritedness" is due to character, how much due to difficult life circumstances, how much to some possible disorder and how much due to a combination of those factors. And it is fair and reasonable not to know - it is in the nature of things! And actually one of the reasons I REALLY want to see this excellent neuro-psychologist in my area - sadly, she is leaving her post at the end of the summer and it may be impossible to see her - is because I would really like some light shed in this darkness of not knowing.
With all due respect, and gratitude for the support that such a forum as this one gives, it is not helpful to have people telling me they think, without having seen him, that he suffers from this or that. And I really would like to make it clear that my real doubts that he has Asperger's Syndrome are not based on some dislike I have of the condition or sense that it is shameful ( is it any more, or less, "shameful", than ADHD, or Sensory Integration Disorder (SID), which I do think are quite likely for him) but simply because he just doesn't fit the list of criteria for that that I have read about...
And, yes, we want our kids to fit in and be part of society. But my son is never going to be an anonymous face in the crowd, for good or ill. All I can do is help him be as reasonable, responsible, civically minded and balanced as it is POSSIBLE for him to be...
 

Marguerite

Active Member
I hope you can find a good neuropsychologist to get him into. If you can't get him into the one you know about, maybe ask her if she can recommend someone?

Marg
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Thanks. Things are a lot more centralised or unified than that here. There is just one neuro-psychologist that I can see in my area, through the state and it does not cost anything (we pay for health care through professional taxes). This woman is going to be replaced, presumably, but at the moment they are not making any appointments for the autumn. The present neuro-psychiatric is fully booked up for months ahead; basically, to be able to see her, I have to pretend that J is a lot "worse" that the psychologist and teacher are currently telling me he is. The woman I spoke to at the children's centre to which the neuro-psychiatric is attached told me that they would need to contact the school psychologist to get more info in making the judgement of whether he could be seen or not. But the school psychologist has told me in her opinion all is fine and dandy for the moment! So I have the rather farcical situation of having to ring the psychologist to ask if she wouldn't mind playing things up a bit if they ring her... Also going to talk to his teacher today to ask whether she would also mind saying that she has concerns to this service...
In a way - and I say this knowing just how difficult and heartbreaking it must be to have it so - it is "easier", perhaps, if the child is really unambiguously troubled and unable to function??
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Yes, in some ways it is easier. it is clearer to more people, more obvious. The kids that miss out the most are those that are gifted but learning disabled. They miss out coming and going.

Another problem though, is when you begin to lose perspective. You think, "He's fine at home, we understand him, we know what is too much for him and avoid it, we get on fine," when in fact such a home environment is an artificial one, a sort of cocoon from the world and is doing the child no favours because he doesn't learn how to adapt to change and a more challenging environment.

I typically lost perspective also, it is easy to do.

Marg
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
My problem seems to be the other way round, though - I am fearful there is some serious "problem" in a way those in the "outside world" (school, childminders, psychologists) aren't... This morning I talked briefly to J's teacher. She said she is very opposed to making out that there is some serious problem with him because in her view there isn't: she said in her school career she has seen worse children, that he is physically hyperactive and aggressive in his play like some of the other boys, that she has to scold him more than some other children but that he respects authority, has made great progress, is sociable and (her words) "adorable and affectionate". In her view he is a normal but very active little boy... I tried to explain that I just want an evaluation, something to go on, but she seems to feel I am reading too much, worrying too much... I fear that I am not going to be able to see this neuro-psychologist because he is not pressing enough a case.
I don't know whether I am alarming myself coming here to the website... Yet J's tantrums, inflexibility, difficulty with change do seem to point to something... I guess I do have to just wait and see how things evolve for him. A friend is going to give me the number of a play therapist she knows... this at least could be helpful right now.
Thanks for all your input :)
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Malika, perhaps what could work for you right now is to keep a diary. Log everything, including all the good stuff he does. It will be valuable later on in his life anyway. If he has a problem at school, log that too. Then over time, look back and see if there is any kind of pattern. If there isn't, then the teacher is right. But if there is, the book can give you early warning before it becomes a huge issue.

When I look back through difficult child 3's diary, I can see how far he has come. It gives me a lot of encouragement.

Don't worry that your problems don't seem as bad as some other people's. We are all different! I read posts about someone's teen child going AWOL, experimenting with drugs, sexual promiscuity, shoplifting, violence, and I am grateful my kids have not been a problem to that degree. the point is here, we are all supporting one another, whatever we may or may not be dealing with. I am glad my son is doing a lot better at the moment. He's always been a decent, scrupulously honest person and for that I am very grateful.

It's OK. You came here because you are concerned. It doesn't matter if you haven't fully identified why you re concerned.

I will share with you though - with both my boys, I have had teachers as well s friends, try to assure me that there was no problem. One friend looked after difficult child 1 in her home for the week I was in hospital giving birth to difficult child 3. You would think in that week she would have noticed that difficult child 1 was different, but no. She loved having him, every minute. He was 10 at the time. She told me many stories of the fun they had together, of the time they spent enjoying each other's company. But in her stories I could see what had been concerning me. To her, they were not concerns. For example, they were playing a game of chess. My friend was losing and difficult child 1, with typical Aspie tactlessness, said, "You're not very good at this, are you?"
Or the time she took him to a cafe for an ice cream sundae - something I had never done because it is challenging and expensive with a bundle of kids. He loved every minute of it because he had three adults all paying attention to him. He spent the entire time in the cafe explaining to them about fossils (his passion at the time). My friend reported being very impressed with his intelligence. What she didn't realise was that his encyclopedic knowledge was limited to a very small range of topics. To her it was novel, she didn't get to hear the same stuff over and over, ad nauseum.
I was glad that they had fun, glad difficult child 1 had been an only kid, centre of attention, for some time. It was good for his self-esteem. But I was sad that my friend was even more convinced thee was nothing wrong, when everything she told me about their time together actually reinforced my concerns.

difficult child 1 is now a married man aged 27. He and this friend of mine are still very close. She's like an extra grandma for him. But she still has a difficult time accepting his Asperger's diagnosis. She also was one of the last to accept difficult child 3's autism diagnosis, even though it was far more obvious. I remember dropping in to visit her one day to talk about my concerns. She continued to insist there was not a problem. So I said to her, "Ask difficult child 3 about his day today at pre-school." (he was 3 years old).
So she leaned forward to touch him on the knee to make eye contact (instinctively the right thing to do). "What did you do today at pre-school, difficult child 3?"
difficult child 3 briefly made eye contact with her then looked away to the view over the ocean out the window. "Bird," he said. "Water."

She looked at me, shrugged, then ignored his lack of response. "Maybe he's just tired," she said.
"No, this is usual," I told her. "He cannot ever tell me anything about his day. He cannot use sentences. He knows labels for some things. He is the same age as Janie who can chatter on about her favourite TV program and why she likes it. Yet he can't even tell me when he wants a drink of juice. He has to grab my hand and drag me to the fridge."

A mother's instinct is valuable. We are the first line of concern. Sometimes, but less often, our concerns are unfounded. More often, we are briefly persuaded out of our concerns by others in our child's life; people who are skilled, educated, supposedly able to identify the same concerns. Most often, our concerns end up being recognised s valid and help is obtained that enables our concerns to be eased.
That is the best outcome of all.

Marg
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Thanks Marg. Yes, every person's story is valid and worthy of concern.
It is obvious that J is different to the norm. But then I was a sprited child and different to the norm... I guess this is my one central question _ is there something wrong with him neurologically and would having a diagnosis help?
 

Peace Please

New Member
I don't think that anyone on this board can tell you whether J has a neurological disorder, but a diagnosis can help A LOT. As Marg said earllier, with a formal diagnosis, you will know what to expect and how to deal with each stage of his childhood. Now, I know that not every child with a certain diagnosis follows a certain pattern with a certain diagnosis, but this is where this forum is WONDERFUL! There are so many parents on this forum that have dealt with so many issues with their difficult child's that support is always here. Malika, I hope that you find J a wonderful doctor that can help.
 

Star*

call 911........call 911
Malika -

I just had to say "I'll be your Huckleberry" .....lol - you know OK Corale - doctor Holliday - ahem - never mind.

Anyway - I have a suggestion since he's 4.....May seem a little odd, but it's kind of a play therapy tactic that I used to do with Dude that (while a little lame) worked with him pretty good when his Biofather wasn't around to mess it up. Puppets. Just plain old sock puppets. Decorate one or two - Or if you have money? Try and buy a couple nice ones - maybe even three if your son wants to get in on the act. Like I said I KNOW this sounds crazy - but hear me out. He's 4. Sometimes four year olds will talk to a stuffed animal, or a character even IF it's on the end of your hand before they will talk to you. When Dude was little - I hardly ever had any problems getting him to go to bed, or to pick up toys. When I did? Mr. Sock Puppet would appear and HE would have to do all the work. Mr. Sock puppet (on the end of Mommy's hand) would go in his room, and start cleaning up and struggle to lift the toys, and struggle to fix the bed, and struggle to do the chores and voila - here comes Dude to help - Mr. Sock Puppet - he'd talk to the puppet, he'd hug the puppet - he would HELP the puppet - and if the puppet said TIME for us to get into bed - by golly he'd get into bed.

Then Mr. sock puppet would tell ME - he wanted to stay with Dude. and off my hand he'd come - and onto Dude's hand he'd go - and then they would lay there in bed - and fall asleep - because MR sock puppet didn't want to get out of bed and loose a star. Would Dude help him keep his stars on his chart? And then Piasan - the other sock puppet always got into a little mischief - well Dude and Mr sock puppet figured he should always go with me because he got THEM into trouble. Piasan threw toys out of the toy box, he didn't listen, he got put into time out a lot. It deflects - but it assists.

As far as the time thing? Dude ALWAYS did better if we said - 15 minutes of time left - 10 minutes left.....5 minute warning bell - start wrapping it up. OKAY buddy boy - you have one minute left.......lets time you and see how fast you are - CAN YOU BEAT ME to your bed??? 50, 49, 48.....etc. 10, 9,8, ..where is he????? IS HE GOING TO BEAT ME TO BED and get a super reward?? 5, 4. 3. 2.....1 3/4.....1.....zero - OMgosh HE DID IT -----the crowd goes crazy ....wowowhoooooo. LOOK at that WONDER BOY!!! does he have the best muscles? Yes he does. I bet they are rock hard - let me feel them....he got those running to his bed on time. AWESOME! AWESOME.

Things like that - if he could beat me to the bathroom - and brush his teeth before me - and beat the clock and get in bed before me - HE picked the story for bed. Or he got to pick from the happy box - just yardsale stuff like stickers and little things like that. But he won something and got love, hugs and a story - or he'd just get the story. or to pick the story - some nights Mr. Sock puppet got to pick the story - and when he was sad? Wouldn't talk to me? He would tell Mr. Sock puppet.

Just thought maybe it was worth a shot.
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Great idea, Star! I can really see J going for this - he loves to help and also loves to win... I will look out for a finger puppet next time I am in a finger puppet shop ( :) )
Can I ask what diagnosis (presuming he has one) your son has?
 

Star*

call 911........call 911
Malika - you can take 2 socks, some felt - a magic marker or buttons - some yarn and make a sock puppets. I did that. We also used to take my make up and made Mr. Fisty - Just ball your hand up into a fist and make your thumb the bottom lip. We used to do all kinds of crazy things like lay upside down on the bd and draw faces upside down on your chin - OMG those are so funny.

Dude was diagnosis with so many things so many times - but at least everyone agreed: Severe ADHD, ODD /CD, encopreses. Later they added possible: BiPolar (BP), Budding sociopath, Borderline (BPD) traits, Narcicistic traits. At one time we were told he was a Borderline - and I think I spent the ENTIRE therapy session crying. Later they changed that to just "traits". The sociopath came from his love of fires, and harming animals which I'm glad to say - he doesn't have anymore. He's wonderful with animals but that took a lifetime of work, and example. His biofather is a psychopath/sociopath, BiPolar (BP), alcoholic, drug addict, sex addict and probably scads of other things but I left 16 years ago so I have no idea what else - I know that man is evil.

Hope the sock puppet works.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
We used to do all kinds of crazy things like lay upside down on the bd and draw faces upside down on your chin - OMG those are so funny.

Star, we have a charity here that raises money for the Leukemia Foundation, the campaign is called "Shave for a Cure" and the idea is, you either shave your head or dye your hair. People sponsor you to do this as in "I bet you haven't got the guts to follow through" and all money raised goes to the charity. The ads for this are varied, but all involve various "personalities" made form someone's face upside down with a wig on their chin, giving the spiel. They even sent up "The Donald" - imagine how they depicted Donald Trump using someone's upside down face. And of course they used the line, "If you don't support shave for a cure - you're fired!"

A long-haired biker nephew of mine raised big bucks because he shaved everything on his head (except his eyebrows). The next day he got sunburnt from the unaccustomed UV exposure to parts of his face that hadn't seen the light of day in decades...

Marg
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
I tried the glove puppet technique with J but it wasn't a great success - in that it did initially get him to do what I wanted in a playful rather than conflictual way (put on his dressing gown to go outside in the cool morning air) but then he just wanted to repeat the whole thing endlessly as a game... I think the "can you beat me to the..." may work better.
I'm beginning to feel that... I have to accept that Jacob has ADHD, that something is going on with him that is not "normal" and that although I don't want it to be so, it very probably is so... I found an article on the net, something written by a British teacher about children with ADHD and it is him to a T. Everything. That has to be more than coincidence. I do also feel he has some sensory problems, which he has had from babyhood, that I do not fully understand yet. I am fairly certain he does not have Asperger's Syndrome - no problem with eye contact, no obsessive play rituals or habits, no problem with understanding irony or humour and so on.
And I am feeling... where do I go from here... beyond saying to the child psychiatrist "Okay, I think you're probably right, I think he probably does have ADHD"... what is the outlook for a child with ADHD, what expectations can one have? Basically, I want J to understand social codes and norms in the way other kids do... is this feasible, realistic? I want him to understand that he can't swear at me like he does, that he needs to listen to me when I ask him to do something that is potentially dangerous to him, that he cannot run round like a maniac in people's houses, that it is not appropriate for him to talk to me as if he is the grown-up and I am the child... he has made progress in certain things and he has this really sweet, endearing, responsive side that kind of makes everything feel like its not so desperate but... I guess I feel a little scared for his future right now. Or, if I'm honest, a lot...
It is just because it is new. Just because I'm really accepting something for the first time that I've been unwilling to accept, hoping against hope it wasn't true... but I think it is.
 
H

HaoZi

Guest
Not all Aspies have eye contact issues, and in some cases it's more of overly intense eye contact rather than avoidance. Kiddo doesn't have eye contact issues. She has humor (it doesn't always make sense to anyone else, but it's there). She can be a very concrete thinker, I had to explain what "My eyes are bigger than my stomach" meant because she took it to mean a very small stomach! Her Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) type things are more like getting so enmeshed in the details of her work that she can't complete it in a reasonable time, is highly focused on marine biology, warrior cat series, and dinosaurs to an extreme extent, very picky with food. Things like that.
I'm not saying your J is an Aspie like my J (yes, her name starts with J, too), but to keep an open mind on such things and realize that it is a spectrum, not everything listed is a rule written in stone.
 

exhausted

Active Member
Malika,
As you know my easy child was a pretty severe ADHD (remember I shared-medications at age 5 even though I'm a conservative with those). He also had sensory issues-eventually found out he had sensory integration problems(common with ADD or ADHD- see it often in my classroom). He would only wear certain clothes, had some fear of play ground equipment that went round and round or swings, fine motor problems. He is 23 and doing wonderful! Makes good money doing what he loves. Still likes cotton short sleeve shirts and shorts (dead of winter included), but survives his work uniform. His sensory integration issues have made him a wonderful drummer because his hands and legs can do their own thing. He has friends, has always been sober, and has a clean driving record. Not many 23 year olds get to say that! We intervened early, and always kept up hope.

When you finially go down the path of "My child may have some problem", you go through a grieving process- and its not a straight line,you go from one stage to another and back and forth. Denial, anger,denial, acceptance, denial,acceptance and so on. It is just like loosing a kid-the kid you thought you had. I've done it with both kids. And I am still struggling with doing it with difficult child as we get a new diagnosis and medication with every psychiatrist we see!

What I have learned is that even the pros are not pros. Children change and develop and parents have a lot to do with this, though they can't change everything (genetics are huge!). There are a million methods of how to deal with them and everyone has the sure way-don't ever believe that when you hear it- it is too rigid. I have made my bag of tricks full of everything I could and I still gather. It's helped me be more responsive and a better teacher as well. I don't buy into one way of thinking ever-noone has all the answers. It's nice to get all the ideas here on this site, they have helped me greatly. Sometimes I have to try things several times and sometimes I am led to just what I need in the moment. This site is a true life-saver for me. As you can see we all have different experiences and different personalities and therefore,different things will work for us.

My biggest lesson has been to listen to myself-what am I saying and what is my frame of mind really? How am I transmitting this to my family? Is that good or not so helpful? What do I need? I am learning to care for myself and to trust my mother instincts, which through the years have been tramped all over by well meaning professionals from teachers to psychiatrists. Even if you find out your little boy has a diagnosis-he is not the diagnosis. He is your little boy first and the diagnosis next. And then the diagnosis does not always point to a sure fire treatment. Most parents here can tell you the path is long and the searching tough.

You are not alone. Im glad you are going to get some help-you will at least have some ideas on where to head that may help there be some peace between you and J. Hugs
 

Marguerite

Active Member
On the Aspie front, the eye contact is no biggie, especially if it's you (or other people he's familiar with) that he makes eye contact with. When difficult child 3 saw his first multidisciplinary team at age 4, they asked me to bring in some baby photos. They generally showed this baby making good eye contact - he had no problem with it, even though his diagnosis is autism, and I am convinced that he showed signs from his first week (when I look back).

But you also said -
no problem with understanding irony or humour

Now, especially at age 4, that is a biggie. My boys did get humour, but puns primarily. And slapstick. Pratfalls always popular!
Anything with more complex subtlety, especially social subtlety, was beyond them especially when younger. I was actually talking about tis with difficult child 1 last night, he is remarkably perceptive now as a young man, although I commented that he still tends to accept at face value what people say, such s his former boss telling creditors that he was in receivership; difficult child 1 commented that he drove past the other day and the shop is still trading and I suggested the boss had lied. difficult child 1 had a hard time accepting that he had been lied to, said he thought he was more perceptive than that now. I was watching him and his wife last night, discussing what they need to do for their move (out of their apartment) and difficult child 1 was coping better than daughter in law, who feels it all as too big a personal load.

But if you can analyse the complexity of your son's humour and it seems to be age appropriate across the spectrum of humour, then I agree, this does not sound like Asperger's.

ADHD - some believe it is part of the spectrum, and I am inclined to agree. difficult child 1 was initially diagnosed as ADHD, the Asperger's label came when he was about 14. We had always thought the ADHD did not explain everything, but the diagnosis helped us a lot when we needed SOMETHING.

medications helped us a lot. They are not for everybody, but for our boys the result was almost miraculous. I liken it to a diabetic who needs insulin. Some diabetics (Type 2 diabetics in the early stages, where it can be arrested or even reversed) can improve with careful attention to diet and health. But if the condition is serious enough, a diabetic needs insulin and will suffer without it. In the same way, the brain of someone with ADHD needs some form of stimulation to switch ON the inhibitory circuit, the one we use for impulse control and to switch off distractibility. The amount to which it works will vary from individual to individual and when you try it and it works, it is wonderful. If you try it and you don't notice much if any benefit, even if you increase the dose, then medications are not the answer.

Sensory stuff can also be a huge distraction, but as the inhibitory switch is triggered (to switch down the distraction degree) then the Sensory Integration Disorder (SID) stuff can also often ease back. But it's a threshold - if there is enough Sensory Integration Disorder (SID) trigger, then the person will be distracted. Imagine trying to write a complex essay while sitting naked in a swamp full of stinging insects. You would have trouble. Then the sun comes up and you find glare and sunburn adding to the discomfort. At some point you pack up, give up and go inside.

With the sock puppet - it is a starting point. In the process you have made other discoveries specific to your son, and that is really good. So all ideas, even the not so successful ones, are great if they lead us to new and effective methods.

Marg
 
H

HaoZi

Guest
*scribbles notes madly on humor complexity*
That explains a lot. Also reminds me I promised Kiddo I'd grab her some Xanth books from the library since she adores puns.
:bow: I always learn new stuff from you Marg!
 
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