Some of what the Pittsburgh terror brings up for me

[CareTooMuch]

Very interesting thread. I am Jewish also, from both sides of my family. I grew up in a synagogue and Sunday school that turned me off of religion from fifth grade on. My heritage is Jewish but I do not practice nor choose to follow any organized religious group. I do teach preschool at a reformed temple and am supportive of children growing up in a religious environment but abhor the political side. I absolutely believe there are hard and fast rights and wrongs, but there is a world of views in between those "facts." I also think that the split second involvement of the media has completely fueled hate on all sides and I don't know that there is a way to stop it. I feel very sad for our children and grandchildren, we need to find a middle ground before our country implodes.

 

[Tired out]

The congregation that the killer targeted he selected because they had aided in some way central American immigrants.

And doesn't that just figure..that congregation aides anyone who need their help. They didn't discriminate at the children's rehab they helped any one that would accept their help.

 

[Copabanana]

and doesn't that just figure

There is a point of view that Jewish people and specifically Soros are funding the Central American caravan so that they can come to the USA to take over the country.

 

[BusynMember]

Who can believe this stuff? Who lies this way to cause danger to innocent Jews? Who are these people???

This nonsense causes unwarranted hate towards Jews just as many lies Ive head on talk radio and Fox and other places slam other groups of people. Mexicans. African Americans. Women. I can not express how upset I get when brave women have the guts to call out their abusers and are ridiculed and belittled by certain factions we can all name. And the head of the list is on tape getting off a bus proclaiming his disrespect of women to the world....but its not true. Its fake news.

I cant listen.

Maybe Im not tolerant enough. But I cant see how watching any of this blatant lying and hate enriches my life. Or anyones. What can we do? We are peons.

This new culture certainly urges certain crazy groups to act violently against innocent people. But, again, I cant stop it so I close my ears. I like to genuinely help people...so I try in areas where I can. And I maybe selfishly make my life more pleasant by blocking out the bad stuff that I cant do anything about.

I am lucky in my opinion because my husband just watches local news. I can handle local news. As soon as we see World News or Trump we turn to each other, laugh (cuz crying doesnt do squat) and turn it off. We are done. Our day has started.

 

[Copabanana]

What can we do? We are peons.

I am really going to think about how I can be involved politically in some way. I think what you do SWOT, volunteering, is a huge deal. I think it is here in the grassroots that things are changed. These men who have committed these acts in the past few days were highly vulnerable people. In need of care and treatment and assistance that they did not receive. I am not pardoning them or taking away their responsibility. But I think that contributing as you do makes a difference. It is the only thing that makes a difference, I think. I think politics is has become about power, privilege and manipulation. Maybe it was always this. At least in this country.

 

[Tired out]

I think there is a lot of fake news. The sad thing is the media is enticing people to hate. There isn't any impartiality in reporting and there should be. Just report the facts not some embellished bunk. As far as people coming here from other countries there are steps to follow and they need to be followed. To me the South American movement of people headed here is another political ploy, the timing is too odd, right before elections. I love the way so many of the down trodden and repressed that are headed here that are being photographed have cellphones and cigarettes in their hands, who do you suppose paid for those? We weren't supposed to notice the details, just the sadness of dirty faces. I am not saying that some of them really deserve amnesty, I am sure some do.
In the mean time we have a lot of US citizens that need help desperately as their homes were flooded and destroyed by hurricanes.
The "Me Too" movement. Anything that can be proven and taken to court should be. If there is no proof then the media shouldn't be making a fake case out of it. Any woman could come up to anyone of us tomorrow and say our husband/son/brother assaulted her and they would be hung without any proof Just because some woman said so..I think not. In reality when someone files a charge with no proof they should then be some consequence for them. I am afraid this whole "me too" movement is creating some vindictive lairs.
I wish that people who are so upset with what someone is doing that they would take a life, instead they wold go and point out why they shouldn't be helped or help the group that they feel needs help. Killing and hating isn't fixing anything.
Politics--extreme evil on both /all sides is my feeling.

 

[Copabanana]

have cellphones

I lived in Latin America. The people there no matter how poor use cellphones. The poor do not have landlines, nor do such go to the pueblos where most of the poor live, say, in Guatemala. I think that if I was setting out on a transnational journey where the risk of assault and other types of violence was so high, I would want a cellphone. I have not been reading the particulars about the caravan, but I understand it began in Honduras where there is extreme gang and political violence. These people believe themselves to be refugees and aim to try to qualify to receive refugee status at the border. There is a legal mechanism at the border to screen migrants to see if they qualify. These people are doing nothing illegal to try to go through the legal process.

 

[BusynMember]

I vote. Thats as politically involved as I ever want to get again. I have volunteered in the past, when I believed that made a difference. When I feel things were more civilized. When I felt the rigjt people were making progress. That is no longer tjetcase for me. I dont even know.or care who is running in most races now, just know which party I prefer.

This is part of myself detaching from what I cant control. I vote how I vote. Others will do the same. I am not going to get all worked up over elections anymore. Many times I dont even watch the results. I will find a way to live well and continue to help those near me regardless of who wins an election. Some of the rhetoric in the last election was scary to me and what I find scary is becoming acceptable to some. Why listen to it? I cant change it. I hope I set a better example for my kids. Thats all I can do.

I am glad women are no longer afrsid to.accuse famous men of hurting them. We are allowed free speech in this country and are not arrested for what we say happened to us. Nobody can shut people up. If that ever happens thrn we eill no longer be a free country.

Jmo

 

[AppleCori]

Copa,

It is so cool that you are learning Hebrew.

I read a book about it once, and I still remember it was described as the language of God. It was fascinating, the way the language goes together.

So much of the problem with conspiracy theories is the way it spreads on the internet. This is our new reality.

I have a relative who is mentally ill and has a belief in “gangstalking” and has found a huge community of like-minded people on the internet to reinforce his beliefs. Many of these people are also mentally ill.

By the way, gangstalking has nothing to do with gangs as we understand them. My relative believes that some group (at various times, the government, a foreign government, a shadowy organization that really controls the world, the Bulgarian mafia, or some other powerful group of people) is sending random people, neighbors, sometimes even friends or relatives to watch him at all times.

I have read up on this and watched some of the gangstalking ‘victims’ videos on YouTube. Some believe their tormentors are aliens, some believe it is a religious battle of good (them) against the forces of darkness and his minions. Governmental stalking is a dominant belief system, and some believe their mind (or sometimes their stalkers’ minds) are being controlled by the government (voice to skull, they call it). Many think the Freemasons are behind their torment.

Ideas such as these (and many other types) have always been around, but never before have their beliefs been reinforced by thousands of other like-minded (often mentally ill) people. If someone disbelieves them, that person is accused of being a gang stalker, or ‘perp’ or in on the conspiracy. At least two mass shootings in the last few years have been committed by people in this community. One man was a lawyer. These people are felt by their peers to have been driven to their crimes by their stalkers. They all call themselves ‘Targets’ or ‘targeted individuals’. Some even openly advocate violence to stop their stalkers and draw attention to their plight and show the world that this truly happening to them.

The people are much less likely to seek help when their beliefs are reinforced by a large community of like-minded people. Confirmation bias. Also, they are often counseled not to take medication or go to a doctor or psychiatrist by the group.

And, if you look up ‘gang stalking’ in the Urban Dictionary, it is treated as a real phenomenon.

Some people even sell items online which, they proport, will protect ‘victims’ from mind control or surveillance.

So, everything is not always as it seems on the surface, and I don’t think we truly understand how much mental health plays into these various unusual beliefs, and occasionally, crimes. I think we put way too much emphasis on politics and too little on mental health and the real reasons some of these crimes happen.

I know this is a bit off topic, but I thought I would throw this out for consideration.

 

[BusynMember]

Appl, good post.

These remind me of delusions that happen in some with severe mental illnesses/psychosis. And it is scary that now there are online communities to.support these delusions. And yes this would probably stop many with paranoia and delusions from seeking help. Their delusions are validated. It is very true that many with psychosis believe they are being watched all the time. And plotted against. And tricked.

A man I know who has suffered mental illness staunchly believes the world is flat and that no astraunauts actually ever went into space....that it was all a show. He has some interesting arguments about the astranauts in particular.

He does not appear to be psychotic and talks intelligently on many other subjects.

Very odd. Maybe some people, rather than being psychotic, are truly brainwashed. I know he reads obsessively on these two issues.

 

[Elsi]

Ideas such as these (and many other types) have always been around, but never before have their beliefs been reinforced by thousands of other like-minded (often mentally ill) people.

The people are much less likely to seek help when their beliefs are reinforced by a large community of like-minded people. Confirmation bias. Also, they are often counseled not to take medication or go to a doctor or psychiatrist by the group.

I don’t think we truly understand how much mental health plays into these various unusual beliefs, and occasionally, crimes. I think we put way too much emphasis on politics and too little on mental health and the real reasons some of these crimes happen.

Really important points - and I think very relevant for some of our kids! I think this is a huge factor in why Copa's J, and my C, and others of our children struggling with mental illness get sucked in by some of these conspiracy theories. And I agree that politics, while it can fan the flames, is not the root cause behind conspiracy mania. There have always been fringe conspiracies on both sides of the aisle, and many that cross both sides and don't add up to any coherent ideology other than "the world is a dangerous place and everyone is out to get me." As you say, the big difference now is that people can find and reinforce each other in large numbers online and feed into each other's mental illnesses. This is so dangerous because people become so much more treatment-resistant and reality-resistant!

 

[Elsi]

A man I know who has suffered mental illness staunchly believes the world is flat and that no astraunauts actually ever went into space....that it was all a show. He has some interesting arguments about the astranauts in particular.

It's actually a surprisingly popular theory out there. This is what I mean when I say we can't even agree on objective facts and reality anymore. People choose the evidence they want to believe, even if it's made up, and refuse to consider any evidence to the contrary. Even if that evidence is massive and overwhelming, and the evidence for their theory falls apart like a tissue in the rain. And of course, anyone who argues with them has proven themselves to be part of the vast conspiracy of misinformation or brainwashed. This frightens me.

 

[BusynMember]

Well, one of this mans arguments is that if somebody really went into space the person would be talking about it forever and astraunauts are fairly quiet. They dont talk about it. And when he talks everyone sort of smiles and nods.

One scary thing about beliefs that are fictional is that you can not have a rational discussion about it. They just come up with more and more fiction to refute facts so there cant really be an honest discussion. And also it takes people by surprise so we are unprepared. But what could we say back to hum even if we WERE prepared?

Isnt there A Flat Earth Society or something?

 

[Elsi]

Isnt there A Flat Earth Society or something?

There is! I used to think this was a joke society, but apparently it's not! Or it's not anymore. I have no idea why some people are so invested in "proving" the earth is flat, but there you go.

 

[BusynMember]

To prove that the government is tricking us? Who knows!

I used to chat on a polictics channel that had real time chat. MIRC. Years ago when I still cared about what happened in the world. Many chatters were way extreme in thought. One man, who sounded nice in general, lived on isolated property, totally off the grid, with tons of weapons to repel the government when/if it came to his door. He really believed that this was going to happen. I expect he is still waiting.

It must be hard (seriously) to live with this degree of paranoia.

 

[Lil]

Who can believe this stuff?

These remind me of delusions that happen in some with severe mental illnesses/psychosis. And it is scary that now there are online communities to.support these delusions. And yes this would probably stop many with paranoia and delusions from seeking help. Their delusions are validated. It is very true that many with psychosis believe they are being watched all the time. And plotted against. And tricked.

I think you answered your own question.

My opinion (which is based on nothing scientific and therefore may be no more valid than flat earth) is that the people who believe or spout this type of drivel fall into three categories.

1. People who don't actually believe it, but are just trying to get under your skin or push some agenda.

2. People who have some deep seated fear and or hatred for the government or a certain political party, etc. This is mostly the "false flag" and FEMA is going to kill us all, nonsense.

3. People who have some type of mental illness, diagnosed or not. I think this more along the line of the really far-out theories; reptilicans, flat earth, fake moon landing, the Denver Airport is satanic, etc..., although I guess things like chemtrails and Illuminati and New World Order could fall under here.

Now, when I say mental illness...I'm not talking about anything that prevents the normal working of daily life...more a gullibility or a predisposition to believing the worst of people. I don't really think well-adjusted people ever believe this stuff.

Copa, I didn't see this before now and being at work it took me a minute to get it all read. FWIW, on your original issue, which was:

But the thing is this: It is hard to mourn what happened in Pittsburgh knowing that my son could well be not feeling compassion but believes instead this is a "False Flag" to control events politically. I recognize that there are many people like my own son who believe this about many attacks (Paris, 911, Boston, Sandy Hook, etc.) and I am not taking away their right to believe this... My question is this: How do I hold my son, who holds these beliefs?

The same way you always have. Since you don't actually know what he thinks of this, you're kind of worrying about things without reason to. You're free to assume that he feels very sad about the state of the world and this particular horrible act. But, even if you are sure he is buying into the conspiracy stuff, there's no reason to think he condones it. A person could believe that the Jews are trying to take over the country and still not think murder was justified. You don't have to have him agree with what you know are the facts. He doesn't have to be well-adjusted for you to simply continue to love him and live your own life. Mourn as you see fit. You will not be able to change his beliefs. My son spouted a few conspiracy, anti-government type theories in his time. I told him to shut the hell up, I didn't want to hear it and he was smarter than that and if he wasn't smarter than that, I didn't want to know.

We don't really talk politics.

I practice my religion and pray for him. He's an atheist. The only thing I've ever said about his atheism was to not insult his families' beliefs. My son's views do not have to be my views. He's a grown man and entitled to his own beliefs, or lack thereof.

Sometimes, not knowing what goes on in their heads is a good thing. You can practice plausible deniability.

 

[BusynMember]

Lil, great answer.

I don't think Bart is into conspiracy stuff but I dont agree with him politically so we just never talk politics. In fact I think politucs is a good topic to avoid. Unless someone else brings it up, I dont discuss it. And even then I am inclined to walk away from the topic just like I try to.dodge the flat earth man when he brings that up.

 

[Copabanana]

Thank you Apple for your atta boy about the Hebrew.

is sending random people, neighbors, sometimes even friends or relatives to watch him at all times.

This gangstalking is bizarre. I had never heard of it before. What you are describing Apple is a delusion, the sense that outside forces are controlling one. Inserting chips in brain, the TV is watching me, that kind of thing. News media and others who manipulate these people are beyond the pale.

with tons of weapons

You know for the past year I have done private classes with a really nice young man who runs a Mixed Martial Arts studio. He is lovely and kind and entirely normal. But OMG does he love his guns. He has 7. All too often he talks about some kind of social calamity that would require him to defend his family with all guns blazing. He thinks his wife who is law enforcement is extreme, because she believes that when this disaster event comes we will be invaded by the people who are fleeing the large metro near us who will want to steal our food, water and homes. I mean. These people are entirely normal. They are typical. These beliefs ARE NOT confined to the "lunatic fringe." That is the really scary part.

My son spouted a few conspiracy, anti-government type theories in his time. I told him to shut the hell up, I didn't want to hear it and he was smarter than that and if he wasn't smarter than that, I didn't want to know.

The only thing I've ever said about his atheism was to not insult his families' beliefs. My son's views do not have to be my views. He's a grown man and entitled to his own beliefs, or lack thereof.

In my better and stronger moments this is the way I try to handle all of this. I have always believed in my son's potential for health and normalcy. Which is the crux of the matter. I can no longer: I can stay on an even keel myself. That is all I can do. But it is all I have. I can operate from my own center of gravity.



​

 

[Lil]

I'm sitting here at lunch listening to a youtube video by some guy about the gangstalking stuff. This is one I'd never heard of and I look at a lot of the bazaar conspiracy theory stuff for kind of perverse entertainment. They really believe that people are "assigned" to watch them and stalk them. This guy is saying that the "handlers" had taken people out and put other people in (in a hotel - gee, people change there) and that when he went to a restaurant and the wait staff were "doing an assignment" on him. He's saying 24/7 people are "color coding" and there are cars with their lights on, etc., etc. Weird stuff. This is some kind of serious paranoia.

I actually follow a few SHTF (Sh_t Hits the Fan) websites and youtube channels - survivalist and doomsday preppers, that sort of things. Not because I believe in it in any serious way, but because they have good information on interesting things like how to get clean drinking water (good during floods and such) and get by without electricity (good for power outages) and camping and canning and gardening, etc.

Living that way because you think the country is going to implode into some sort of dystopian future, must be tiring.

 

[BusynMember]

This man had far more than seven guns and he liked assault weapons.

The question is, CAN one be totally mentally normal and truly buy into something so parnoid? Im sure many function well but that doesnt mean that their thinking is normal.