SSI and adult children

[Fran]

I hate the system that thinks you are guilty until proven innocent.
difficult child has had his SSI reduced by a third because he is living at our home despite the cancelled checks for rent and food.
The pencil necked geek who callled us in said that difficult child isn't paying his fair share since what he pays isn't a third of our mortgage!!!!! I suggested if he got more he would pay more.
Also, his job in the program in NJ wasn't reported and he will be deducted for those amounts. I explained that the jobs were obtained, out of state and through a program. I had no involvement and assumed that the school dealt with all of that since all their adults are on SSI. Tough cookies lady.
This man was so aggitated and unreasonable that I realized he was trying to make sure we knew he was in control and had all the power. Once I figured out that he had to win and wasn't interested in the truth or explanation I sat back. I used my bobble head moves, smiled blankly and curbed difficult child in who was getting quite annoyed. The pencil necked geek won.
I am going to appeal and ask for a reconsideration. I told difficult child you walk softly and carry your stick right up the ladder to his boss.
We are not trying to get over and we are anxious to get him out of their system. I hate having people into our lives. I don't understand how he being an adult that they need to know my financial info. Our mortgage should have nothing to do with difficult child, should it? I have no rights since he is an adult.
The truth is that difficult child is still disabled and if we don't have him in the system that he will be in trouble if husband and I die. He qualifies and we waited 5 yrs past the time he could apply. Now I know why. They treat you like a thief or look at you like you are dirt.
Fortunately our case worker came along. She admitted that this guy was really awful and not at all like some of the other staff. Now she knows why I avoid them like the plague. She asked a question but the pencil neck almost put his nose up in the air with his condescention. She was virtually ignored and dismissed. She is going to help walk us through the system and I have to collect all difficult child's info. He never kept a pay stub much to the geeks displeasure.
I will celebrate when difficult child has work and benefits and can get out of this system.
Have any of you with adult children have their stipend reduced because they live at home?

 

[DDD]

Sadly I expect to be dealing with those people soon. Yuk!
Like you, I prefer life on my own. Anyway, I do understand
that if difficult child lives with GFGmom (or us) he will get far less money monthly. In a couple of months I should know for sure. DDD

 

[Mattsmom277]

I don't know how SSI works. I do know the systems in place in the US are quite different than Canada. But regardless, I find it odd that by virtue of being his parents, you'd have to show your mortgage info etc. That hardly seems right. People rent a room for extra income all the time. They aren't required to validate the amount of rent paid, percentage to mortgage etc. I would counter with that, also that difficult child gets zero equity in the house. That home is yours and your husband's home. Not difficult child's. The equity belongs to you, as does responsability for repairs etc. This guy is off his rocker.

I don't get how they are ADULTS but they can hinge their income on their parents. Sorry you all have to deal with this.

 

[DammitJanet]

I have heard of this happening but it didnt to us. Well...it did when I worked and Cory was underage. When Cory lived here, I charged him approximately one fourth of our household bills. The ones that are for basic shelter, utilities, car expenses. Nothing outrageous. Divided them by the number of people in the home.

 

[Fran]

My sentiments exactly. How is my business their business?

 

[mstang67chic]

My mom has issues with her Social Security almost monthly. One time it is because they can't read a number on a form so instead of calling her, they cancel her, another time is for something just as stupid and nominal. It's ridiculous.

As for YOUR mortgage not being covered by difficult child's rent.....how much would he pay if he was in a complex where rent was based on income??? Idjit. When you appeal, I would be sure to include information on this power hungry little twerp and how rude, condescending and asinine he was.

Sorry you had to deal with a moron like this. Maybe between you and the CW, you can get him demoted to mail room apprentice stamp licker or something.

Hugs.

 

[Fran]

Janet, they said he should be paying 1/3 of all household bills. There is no hope that will ever happen. Heck he could barely cover 1/3 of the electric bill in August with what they give him.
If he goes to a neighbor and pays the same amount for a room and board, there would be no question. Is he being punished because our mortgage is more than he thinks we should have? Again, why is it a factor?

Oh well. I know I'm not experienced enough in the system to do this in a way that is acceptable to the pencil neck.

 

[klmno]

I'm not one to do illegal or fraudulant things, but in this case, can you just draw up an agreement between you and your son saying he'll pay a third and turn that in so he gets to keep his benefits? If he happens to "get behind" and not really pay you a third, who will ever know? You're his mom and his landlord- are they going to make you prove that he actually did pay a third? If so, you can give him gift back of whatever you see appropriate. This is absurd when he's an adult. Are they expecting this check to only cover a portion of his expenses and that he also work- as in, someone who is determined to be partially disabled sometimes?

 

[Fran]

They have access to our information. Somewhere in our application for services you have to list your household expenses and these guys have it. I know they didn't get it from me. They know darn well that difficult child isn't able to contribute 1/3 towards our household expenses.

Well, there is nothing underhanded going on so that doesn't worry me but difficult child shouldn't be penalized for his parents lifestyle.

 

[rlsnights]

I would closely review the actual SSI regulations covering in-kind support before you appeal. And I would consider drawing up a rental contract that is based on fair market rent for your home, which is likely to be less than the amount you pay in mortgage and property taxes. He must pay his fair share of the fair market rent or his SSI can be reduced by up to 1/3 of the payment.

Here's the link to the part of the regs governing in-kind support:
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/416/416-1130.htm

Here's an excerpt from the regs:

"b) How we define in-kind support and maintenance. In-kind support and maintenance means any food or shelter that is given to you or that you receive because someone else pays for it. Shelter includes room, rent, mortgage payments, real property taxes, heating fuel, gas, electricity, water, sewerage, and garbage collection services. You are not receiving in-kind support and maintenance in the form of room or rent if you are paying the amount charged under a business arrangement. A business arrangement exists when the amount of monthly rent required to be paid equals the current market rental value (see §416.1101). Exception: In the States in the Seventh Circuit (Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin), a business arrangement exists when the amount of monthly rent required to be paid equals or exceeds the presumed maximum value described in §416.1140(a)(1). In those States, if the required amount of rent is less than the presumed maximum value, we will impute as in-kind support and maintenance, the difference between the required amount of rent and either the presumed maximum value or the current market value, whichever is less."

 

[Fran]

Thanks. I appreciate the regulations.

 

[DammitJanet]

Fran...I was kind of laughing to myself when I was thinking about this scenario. Obviously when they wrote up these rules they never considered people who receive SSI living with anyone who has the mortgages of today. These rules were written years ago. I dont have a clue what your mortgage is but even if Cory...or your difficult child lived with Jamie...and was expected to contribute 1/3 of his income to the mortgage and 1/3 to utilities...they wouldnt have enough left to eat! LMAO. And I am betting my left arm your mortgage is more than Jamies...lol.

They probably think that 200 or so a month is sufficient for his rent. I must have been lucky enough to deal with people with commen sense. Actually, I think the folks down here have no sense but thats another story...it works in our favor...lol. They have never questioned us at all. Knock on wood. We have had a few times when things got out of whack and he has had to pay money back but not a problem. 60 a month.

 

[Suz]

It's just ridiculous.

If Rob doesn't get strong enough to be able to go back to work full time again, I might be fighting this nightmare with him- not from renting here but just in general. What a crock.

Suz

 

[witzend]

Oh, please! If he was renting a room in a stranger's house would he have to pay a third of their mortgage and bills? I'm sorry you are going through this. I hope that the caseworker will help you through.

 

[Hound dog]

Wow. That totally stinks. And is not making me anymore zealous to get Travis disability. (except he can really use the insurance)

I'm curious............ And maybe you'd find asking this question helpful.......... Ok, if difficult child were not living with parents, but someone else and being charged rent ect......how do they figure what is appropriate and do those people have to tell them all their personal info as well?? Cuz I just don't see anyone wanting to cooperate that isn't direct family. And even then........I'm with you, I don't see what business it is of theirs. I mean, you've set the rate. That it is equal to or lower than his "share" should be enough for them to see no one is trying to cheat the system.

I've not known anyone with an adult child on disability. We have a group home across the alley from us. I wonder how it works with them??

 

[klmno]

That made me think of something- what if you got something in writing showing rates of nearby group homes, rooms for rent, etc, and showed that your rent that you are charging is comparable??

 

[Nomad]

I too am sorry you are going through this.
My guess is that something was set up to prevent parents who are less than honest from taking advantage of the situation. (As if!)
Little do they know....
Would agree, folks who rent out rooms or garage apts, etc. do not necessarily charge 1/3 of their mortage note.
So, if a room in your home would be difficult child's entire check or MORE than his check, how does that work?
Hopefully, you will get this worked out soon. Or perhaps in time, your son will move out and the situation will be very different.
It's bad enough that our country does the minimum to help those suffering like this. They want parents and families to help. Then when parents and family help, even just minimally, the client is punished in a major way. It's hard to get healthy in a mess like this.
Thank you Fran for posting...I hope something someone said was helpful to you. Thank you also for posting 'cause it is good warning to all of us. Good information. I passed on the info. to husband. He was gobsmacked. (Thank you Star for teaching me this word!). Unreal and frustrating to be sure!

 

[Momslittleangels]

There are many agencies that state if an adult child is under the age of 21 and living at home, they must use the parents' income in the equation. I know that my easy child ran into that once she hit 18 and got pregnant, because Medi-Cal had to have OUR info. Once she got married though (at 19), then it didn't matter if she lived at home - - our income no longer made a difference. I think this also applies with school grants, but again, she is married now, so it doesn't matter. Maybe you could marry him off and SSI will leave you out of the picture - - - (I'm just kidding on that part, but it hoovers).

I hope you can get some positive results with your appeal.

 

[DammitJanet]

All these social programs are the reason I never remarried. I knew I would some day probably need to rely on them and I didnt want to have a problem. It may seem somewhat dishonest but I dont have to deal with SO's income because we arent married. My stuff is mine, his is his. They make things too difficult to handle things any other way.

 

[rlsnights]

My SO and I are pretty close to experts on MediCaid, SSI and SSDI due to current and past government employment and through direct experience as beneficiaries, payees and trustees. For example, I used to manage the SSI database for one of the most populous states in the country, I have an adult disabled as a child on SSI, I am on SSDI and have been on SSI in the past and we are trustees of a court-supervised special needs trust. So here is what we tell friends, family and people who we encounter on boards or in doctor's offices about being on SSI or SSDI.

SSI is a welfare program. The rules that apply to recipients are intended to make it difficult to get benefits and to continue to get benefits once you qualify. This reflects our country's attitude toward and assumptions about those who are unable to get a job or hold a job - in other words to care for themselves. The underlying assumptions are that anyone who takes a "hand out" must by definition be

1) lazy
2) gaming the system or
3) mentally deficient (as in retarded) and
4) such people require what amounts to parental supervision in order to make good choices about how they spend the money they receive.

Unfortunately there are enough people actually gaming the system and committing fraud that it keeps stereotypes about people on welfare programs alive and well.

Our taxes provide the funds dispensed by SSA and you would probably be unhappy if there were no rules about proving need before receiving money and showing a continuing need while on SSI. At least most people would.

There are some people (my son being one of the them) that require a payee to make sure that their bills are paid and that they receive funds spread through the whole month evenly. So the patronizing position that SSA takes is justified in many cases and it isn't reasonable for SSA to have two sets of rules - one for those who need a payee and one for those who don't. Especially since those categories are often fluid and depend on and individual's circumstances at any given time.

If you or someone close to you, especially someone dependent on you to some extent, applies for SSI it is important that you educate yourself about the rules that apply to you and to the person who will be receiving benefits. The rules are available on the SSA website both written in plain English and the actual regulations.

If you have trouble understanding those rules or have a situation that doesn't seem to be covered you can e-mail your questions to SSA through their website, you can call their 800 line or you can contact your local office for help. It is generally better to ask first and hide nothing.

If the main thing you or your dependent needs is medical care, then you can apply for just MediCaid. The disclosure requirements are not nearly as invasive and their rules are not as stringent in terms of deeming support to applicants.

Finally, your adult child, if disabled before the age of 22, can apply for SSDI (social security disability insurance) if a parent is retired, disabled or deceased provided that parent worked sufficient quarters and paid into Social Security. In that case, the adult child receives a stipend based on the parent's earning record. SSDI is NOT a welfare program and has no limits pertaining to property, cash, etc. If you qualify for MediCaid on SSDI then some rules do apply but they are rules imposed by MediCaid not SSA. SSDI has a 6 month waiting period during which you receive no benefits. Many people apply for and receive SSI during the waiting period.

While it is aggravating and often frustrating to deal with the SSA bureaucracy (I myself have sent in the same form 7 times and finally hand delivered it to the local office and insisted that they give me a receipt) this is the system Congress has set up to aid those who are unable to care for themselves.

If you want to get the benefits you have to learn the rules, if only in self-defense, and be prepared to play by them and manipulate them to your advantage when possible.