Steam is coming out of my ears!

CrazyinVA

Well-Known Member
Staff member
I filed my petition myself, without an attorney. In my case the point was to tick them off, so that they'd do something to help Youngest. It worked, they called me within days to approve a temporary custody arrangement, and she had an Residential Treatment Center (RTC) placement within a month. I was able to withdraw my petition before the court date came. I only suggested it in this situation as an alternative to being charged with abandonment, but it may be that it won't make much difference given the facts stated by k and her previous attempts.

I'm sorry for your pain, K. I hope you can find some peace in all this, somehow.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
K, You know I care, that I believe that what you are thinking is true and that your feelings are not just understandable but that anyone who has any sense at all would feel the way you do.

However - You are unable to try and see this from any point of view but your own. Right now what you are doing is highly risky, dangerous, in fact. TO YOU AND YOUR FREEDOM. difficult child will do what difficult child will do, REGARDLESS of if he is with you, your bro or a group home. If he tried pot in juvie well he will continue using it in juvie, doing whatever to get it.

Right now your refusal is telling the court you are the problem. It is what it is, nothing - NOTHING - you do to protest will change that. The judge may well toss you in jail until you do what he wants. Will difficult child learn anything if you go to jail? I cannot answer it.

I understand where you are coming from. I sympathize. I don't agree because you are only going to cause problems for yourself on the path you are taking. But I see your point and send hugs and understanding to you.

I hope this accomplishes what you want and need it to.

(((((hugs)))))
 

Marcie Mac

Just Plain Ole Tired
I understand being tired of fighting. But you really really need to think of the ramifications that will come back on YOU. Say 30 days in jail - you now have a criminal record even if its just a mistaminor - you had a hard enough time finding work due to your credit, were working with creditors to fix that, and if you are in jail, you can't work so all of the previous work you did to keep your head above water may all be for naught - you may lose it all, part time work, house, the whole enchilada, not to mention you may be ordered to pay child support to whomever gets custody of him, all because you klnow with absolute certainety what the future will hold, that everything is always a constant in the universe, if you go take that mental health evaluation.

I feel for you being inbetween a rock and a hard place and will keep my fingers crossed that the path you have chosed all works itself out for the better

Marcie
 

klmno

Active Member
OK- I just now returned the call fro detention that came in at 10:45 this morning and asked where my son was. He's still there and they asked if I was coming to pick him up so I said I would. With everything in me- I am going to regret this. Maybe I better think it thru some more before going.
 

DaisyFace

Love me...Love me not
K--

I am going to repeat a lot of what's already been said...but here goes:

I've been following your story and I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from. It makes perfect sense. I do not think you are crazy.

BUT--

You are dealing with a system that has to follow a certain procedure. You must choose A, B, or C. So off the record, they can be understanding, they can agree with you, they can mull over the possibilities of what they might be able to do in a perfect world. But at the end of the day--you can only choose A, B, or C....whether you like it or not.

Example--
I am required by the state to file my Sales Tax returns every month. I file online using their computerized form which must be filled out a certain way. Problem is, part of the form does not apply to me because I'm a small seller and most of my items sell on Ebay...but there is no "Not Applicable" button to press.

Now I have written to the state tax dept about the issue. I have called and spoken to them. And they've been very nice and sympathetic to the problem....

But at the end of the day, until something changes, I still have to find a way to fill out that form to the very best of my ability each and every month. If I don't--even though it doesn't apply and even though I rarely owe much tax at all--I will be fined with HUGE penalties. There will be no explaining my way out of non-compliance just because I believe that there is a problem with their system.

That's where you are, too. You believe there is a problem with the system. Well, guess what? You are most likely 100% CORRECT!

But at the end of the day, if you do not go along with the system, regardless of how flawed you believe it to be--you are the one who is going to be panalized.

Now if you were very wealthy or had power and influence--you might be able to fight the good fight and makes the kinds of changes that will benefit us all.

But if you are struggling just to make ends meet...you are not in a position to win at this game.

So you are right--but it doesn't matter that you are right.

You are still going to lose.

We are all here in support of you...and we do not want to see you in jail or facing fines. The ramifications of those penalties are so out of proportion to what they are asking you to do--but that's how the system works.

I'm so sorry it has come down to this.
 

klmno

Active Member
I've brought him home. I told him on the way not to expect this to last to long b/ I'm probabgly headed to jail. And in the meantime- he has chores to do. He's cleaning the grill now so he can ccok the mother's day dinner I didn't get. I told the officer at detention that I was sorry for not getting back to them sooner but in my humble opinion, this kid needed to sweat a while and no one else was making that happen. Oh- I forget I think- difficult child has three Saturdays of some sort of program that equates to community service. If I have to go to jail to stand my ground, right now I think I might still be willing to do that. It is certainly preferable to some quack in our mental health dept ordering medications and therapy to go easier on difficult child. Sorry- if they have a better parent available for him they can send him there. They have to put him somewhere while I'm in jail. I'll go ahead and seek o0ut possibilities for taking care o0f our dogs.
 

Wiped Out

Well-Known Member
Staff member
K,
All I have to offer is hugs-wish I had more right now-know you and your difficult child continue to be in my daily prayers.
 

ThreeShadows

Quid me anxia?
It feels so d**n unamerican to live this way and put up with all these ridiculous judicial decisions. This certainly wasn't what my ancestors were hoping for when they came here. They hoped to have enough to eat, to be able to raise their children in dignity and freedom. What has happened to us along the way??? This is pathetic and enraging! How did we give over our rights as US citizens to a bunch of double speaking zombies?
 

klmno

Active Member
Thank you all for the support. I don't get why difficult child's court ordered mental health evaluation's consist of a short interview with him and a short discussion with the parent but the parent's evaluation consist of the written MMPI only. But I guess since the court people are the one who are telling the evaluator what diagnosis and treatment outcome they want to see recommended, it doesn't really matter about thorough. All they tell me is that it must be my mental health or parenting causing the problem, but my previous therapist said when the courts order a MMPI, they HAVE to tell the evaluator what they want them to look for specifically. So why won't anyone tell me what it is they are looking for? When the judge asked mme about this previous order and why I didn't go through with it, I told him that after speaking with the therapist I was seeing, I was very concerned because no one would tell me what they thought the problem was and I thought I had a right to know if there were any allegations of me doing something to cause this in my son but also, I had been told that they planned to only give the written test and not ask me about my hx or anything which can lead to a very inaccurate determination according to my therapist (supposedly the MMPI interpretations are very subjective anyway depending on whomever scores it) and I was afraid of inaccurate results and consequent orders for treatment and medications based on them. He told me he didn't care what I thought. Well then why did he ask.

Anyway, it makes me feel like I'm supposed to be their guinea pig and if the problem is that I don't buy into their methods or have faith in this system anymore, this isn't going to help that. They are not ordering parenting classes- the only thing they allude to is that it's my mental health. But they won't say they think it's depression or whatever. The judge did also mention that maybe the problem with difficult child was a parent who defied orders but that doesn't fly because difficult child had already been in the system 3 years when this order came up and I had never defied any other order. The only thing I can see behind this is my bro's previous efforts to convince them that I've always been a nut and that's difficult child's problem and that I don't buy into the MST guy's approach to things- actually that guy just rubs me the wrong way all the way around.

Anyway the judge said I had to take that test/eeval and do whatever treatment they said as a result and follow it to the T without question- I was to do whatever they told me at mental heealth. Can anyone in their right mind who is an adult and has previous experience with tdocs commit to that without knowing the diagnosis, therapist, etc up front? Oh- and since MST guy is the courts liason to mental health dept, he is the one who tells them what to look for and when I asked him last year why there would not be an oral interview between the evaluator and me to get my hx and so forth, he said he would provide all that to them. Ha! What makes this part so bad is that from what I read, the hx has to be known order to know if certain things are rational or a psychopathy in the person (if I used that term correctly). IOW, if they are looking at the parts that help determine hypochondria for instance, they have no way of knowing if the person is a hypochondriac without finding out if there is a diagnosis'd physical illness or if the illness exists only in the person't mind unless they talk to the person or look into it with someone who would know. Then there was some other section that supposedly can be interpreted inaccurately if they don't know things like the person used to be in the military, had trauma as a kid, etc.

Further- what gets to me is that they want me to do this and if I don't, my bro could end up with custody but he doesn't have to do one. So it isn't a fair custody battle where they give two parents identical evaluation's to determine which is best for the kid to live with.

It wasn't enough for them to know I'd been in therapy in the past or that I was seeing a therapist when this thing was ordered- they want to be in control of the treatment and monitor it. Ok- this just makes me paranoid because I don't know what diagnosis they think I have and Lord only knows what MST guy would tell them.
 
Last edited:

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
So it isn't a fair custody battle where they give two parents identical evaluation's to determine which is best for the kid to live with.

k - um... Is there such a thing as a FAIR custody battle? ...Wry laugh...

No, you're right, it's NOT fair.

Keep him working on those chores...
 
M

ML

Guest
It's totally ridiculous and as many have said, they have all the power. You, have the knowledge which is why you don't want to play stupid, pointless, silly games. But because they hold all the cards you have no choice. What a nightmare. This journey is so disheartening and in and of iteslf would make a sane man crazy. I'm really sorry.
 

Marcie Mac

Just Plain Ole Tired
K, you are mired in a black and white system without benefit of any legal counsel which absolutely hovers. Its a system that is not fair if you are unable to hire a good attorney to represent you because you don't know the finer points of the game, when they come and order you to do this, that or the other, no one is standing up on your behalf to counter or quote some legal minutia to what they order, cept you, and your lack of knowledge about how the game is played puts you at an extreme disadvantage.

Unfortunately, your bucking the system without benefit of legal council has caused more problems for yourself. Are you wrong for the mistrust of the system, absolutely not. Having seen how things can roll with them, my own personal experience, I no longer trust either the police OR the justice system.

Am not clear on exactly what you think this MMPI test is going to show and why it is going to be such a disaster and show that you are stone cold crazy? Your fearful, controling, paranoid, defiant. stressed, depressed, anxoius, panicky?? And if you are none of those things? What is the worst that is going to happen? It will show no anomolies in the test. Because I would bet a dollar to donuts you are comming across as one or more of those things to them right now - red flags, righty or wrongly, doesn't matter, are waiving in their line of sight, not to mention your stance that you would rather go to jail before you do what they ordered- you would rather lose the farm than comply.

I don't know K, if it were me (and I know its not) I would take the dang test and prove them wrong. If they want an excuse for their actions and decisions, they are going to get it one way or the other

Marcie
 

klmno

Active Member
Marcie, as I've said several times- but maybe people just think I'm exaggerating- the people in the courts tell the evaluator what results they want- and the evluator in our mental health dept gives them that. I'm not saying it's that way everywhere, I'm saying it's that way here. I've seen them do this twice with difficult child - completely throwing out and over-riding what higher qualified psychiatrists had come up with and recommended. If MST guy tells evaluator that they think I'm a sociopath, that's what the results will show and I'll have to take any treatment or medications they require for it without question. I have told them if they were willing to do a complete and thorough evaluation, including previous hx, etc, and not just go by what court people tell them, I would do that. They so far have not been willing to do that. Any data on this test says it should not be used alone to determine a diagnosis. What am I worried about MST guy telling them to look for- the very fact that they won't tell me anything other than that they think I have MI that I'm not treating and I'm not encouraging difficult child to comply or something and that's causing difficult child to reoffend is enough to worry me. First, I'm not encouraging difficult child to break the law. Second, the only diagnosis's I've had in the past are depression and anxiety and maybe PTSD although I never actually saw that in writing. Anyway, when stress starts getting to me I do go see a therapist. So what they are accusing me of is not true to begin with and since they won't say the diagnosis they think I have, it scares me. If they thought it was depression or anxiety it would appear they would say that since I have already acknowledged that in court. The only thing I can think of is that they think I'm ODD because I have told them I can't buy into a contract that says difficult child won't break the law if I cook what he wants for dinner more often. It's stupid. No amount of therapy is going to make me change my mind about that.

If a qualified psychiatrist or psuch had evaluation'd me or difficult child and I was refusing treatment for a credible diagnosis, I could understand a court order for it. If they were doing this to find out if I had a problem and were willing to do a thorough evaluation, I could understand that. This is not what is going on- the courts people have clearly stated that they think I have "something" and my previous therapist who was a psychiatric that also did testing said when courts order these in cases other than true custody cases, it is because they have a diagnosis in mind already and they have to tell the evlauator what to look for. And you can bet our mental health dept finds and does what the courts want. Even some private practioners do. To me, it's the tail wagging the dog andd about as ridiculous as the courts telling a MD to find a certain illness and the MD being willing to do that and treat a person for it instead of doing a real medical assessment.
 
Last edited:

susiestar

Roll With It
You know I understand why you feel the way you do. I do have to point out one thing.

In THIS country the judges orders are law.

You say you do not and would not tell difficult child to break a law or support him breaking a law.

You are refusing to follow a court order, so you are effectively breaking the law. You are also showing difficult child that you have contempt for the court. If YOU will not follow law/court orders, why would you think difficult child would follow them?

I KNOW you have reasons and rationalizations and fears. They are valid and largely understandable.

The facts are still the facts.

The court orders are the law. They are NOT optional.

Is there ANY way you can step back and change your viewpoint? To look at this as a game? If you do not play by the rules you have no chance to win the game. No chance that the court will EVER put any responsibility for what difficult child does on his shoulders. By refusing to follow the rules you are making the court unable to focus on you. Courts are NOT smart. They cannot move on until this is done. You want them to do what you want. Until you do what THEY want it simply will NOT happen.

You have been fighting this the same way for a long time now. Several years. You have gotten the same results. Courts that do not look at difficult child for responsibility. A difficult child who takes no responsibility because he has no real consequences.

The ONLY way to get anything else is to change how you are acting. Period.

It isn't right.

It isn't fair.

It is scary.

It is maddening, wrong, upsetting, pisses you off, and so on and so on and so on.

It also is what it is.

If you still refuse you must at least pony up the funds and get an attorney to help you get out of it. That will NOT get them to give difficult child consequences but it MIGHT preserve your freedom. Maybe.

You ARE telling difficult child you hold the court system in contempt and you won't follow their rulings.

He is your son. Why would he NOT do the same thing?? In his mind if it is okay for you to do it then it is okay for him to do it.
 

klmno

Active Member
But what doesn't add up Susie, is that I never broke any law or court order prior to the mental health evaluation order last year- difficult child had already been in the system for about 3 years prior to that so it doesn't make sense to say I need mental health treatment for being a bad influence in this area. This just doesn't add up. But I'm only speculating on what tyhey think the diagnosis is- they won't tell me.
 

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
Bewilderment. I've found if I have been in a situation where what I know is the case, is ignored, sometimes (not always, mind, but it seems to work with the courts) is to affect a lost attitude and timidly ask for an explanation. Like they've suddenly intimidated me and I don't understand what's going on, please help?

Wow. I wish I could just hug you really. And maybe take you out for a banana split or something.
 

klmno

Active Member
Yeah- I agree. I have a call into a lawyer for a phone consultation. I tried to call MST guy to ask tthe same questions I asked last year when this came up- I think he told me I had to pay for this, not the courts or mental health- and frankly, there's NO way I can afford it. I want to see though if this time he'll tell me what diagnosis it is they think I have. He's out until Monday though. So, then I left a message for PO and want to ask him how we got from him saying he thought I was doing everything I should be and it's not my fault that difficult child made poor choices to being back witth a GAL assigned and me having to go to mental health. I don't buy that the judge reinstated this without someone making issue of it before court yesterday. Now, it might have been the def attny but normally, the PO's opinion carries more weight than the def attny. Honestly, how can they expect anyone to have faith in the system if they mislead you?

And what burns me up even more- the MST guy told me last year that he didn't think the order would have been requested to begin with if the GAL had known that I was already seeing a therapist. Well- then why didn't GAL ask me first? I hadn't reported it to anyone because there had been no reason to. And the guy kept asking if difficult child knew that I was seeing a therapist- and yes, difficult child did because he had to wait in the waiting room while I went in a couple of times. So all these people made assumptions and caused this and these are the same people deciding what diagnosis I should have?
 

klmno

Active Member
Susie, I was thinking more about your hard-lined post. Look at it this way- what if you had found a dr that diagnosis'd Jess with something that you thouight might be valid but you were having trouble finding someone to treat it per the dr's recommendations- then a GAL (who's expertise consists of 3 years experience as an attny and an 8 hr course to qualify as a GAL) somehow got involved, looked over Jess's hx and believed that Jess's issues were just anixiety and nothing more so got a court order for Jess to be treated for anxiety and nothing more- medications and all- and if you didn't buy into it, then the GAL gets a court order on you to get mental health treatment because surely something must be wrong with you and that's standing in the way of this treatment for Jess working. And of course, they order a specific mental health place and tell them to deal with you for this specific issue and the place they order you to go to never even considers that the GAL could be wrong in his/her assessment of things because they assume if it's a court order, it must have a valid reason behind it. And if you don't become a doormat in all this, Jess could get sent to live with a family member that blamed you for everything and had tried to molest you as a kid. And throughout this situation, Jess learned to blame you for all her problems. How would you feel? What would you do?
 
Last edited:
Top