The 2nd (maybe 3rd) worst phone call

[Snow White]

So, it's been a while. In April we got rid of the hoarder "friend", who had been with us for 10 months with no signs of improving her health, lifestyle, employment opportunity or life skills. Been trying to get back into a normal routine. Hubby and I doing some yard work projects. And just when life seems to be getting back to some sense of stability.....daughter calls.

She's been in Asia forever - hopping from country to country. But then she called & spoke with hubby. Said she wanted to "surprise Mom" with a visit home. We hoped it wouldn't happen. She "met a guy" overseas, who lives in Canada. Sure enough, she is on the east coast, staying with said guy. They are "in love" and now engaged. And....SHE IS PREGNANT....and oh, so happy. My 2nd worst phone call nightmare (I would move arrest/prison to 3rd in my opinion). That call came on Sunday night.

Monday - drama phone call. She reports taking boyfriend/fiance to hospital psychiatric unit. Fighting had started. He got upset. Threatened suicide (this is all daughter's story). Doesn't want to stay with him. Admitted that she might have "shoved him" and threatened to trash the place. Says, "I need to put myself and the baby first." Back to regular operating mode.

Tuesday - phone call - did not answer.

Today - phone call at my work with photos of her positive pregnancy test emailed to me. She's decided they can't be together right now and that she needs to come and spend time with her parents. Wants my help???

I KNOW WHAT I HAVE TO TELL HER. I NEED TO SAY "YOU CAN'T LIVE HERE". AT THE SAME TIME, I FEEL PARALYZED. I'm afraid for this child that hasn't even entered the world yet. I'm planning to retire from my job in April and that would be her due date (of course).

I told her I am not in a position to have her live with us. She says she doesn't want that - only to stay until she figures everything out. I told her I am uncomfortable with her being in the house, after admitting she was feeling/acting violent with her guy. She says she's "changed" and that I need to stop blaming her for the past????

Have any of you had to deal with your adult child's pregnancy issues? How did you cope and what limits (if any) were you able to set? I haven't told hubby about today's phone call yet. He's going to spiral into a depression himself.

 

[recoveringenabler]

Oh boy. I'm sorry Mcdonna, what a dramatic and intense couple of days.

Well, for what it's worth, every part of me began reacting to your post by internally loudly proclaiming .....NO, DON'T ALLOW HER TO COME HOME!!!

I had that response because I remembered the remarkable lying your daughter engaged in with the Gofundme, the asking for all kinds of money because of fabricated lies. Plus all the health issues she manufactured to get people to help. Your daughter is a consummate liar and manipulator. Don't forget the past. Only she can forget the past because she wasn't the one devastated, you were. By forgetting the past, you put yourselves in peril to repeat all of the same stuff.

Pregnancy can be such a perfect ploy for our kids to gain back entry, to elicit money, to use the child for their unhealthy purposes to manipulate us to give them what they want. I would seriously question that pregnancy test, somehow it all sounds unbelievable to me and from where I sit as the observer, I have big doubts that she is really pregnant. You can manufacture a pregnancy test, that's not hard for someone like your daughter.

Given the disastrous ways in which your daughter operates with major lying and deceit, thinking nothing of the legal or moral aspects of any of it, I would not allow her back because she states she is pregnant. Time will tell if that is the truth or not. Once she is in your home, your rights are going to waver. She could be lying with the idea that once she gets in your home, she can then "miscarry" and by that time, she's already gotten into your life, your money, your sense of peace.

I don't believe she's changed if she is truly a borderline with all the other traits. My fear is that you are setting yourself up to have her back in your lives for a long, long time. And if she is indeed really pregnant, that is a shame. I still wouldn't allow her to come live with me. You may end up raising that baby. She got herself pregnant IF that is the truth......you are not responsible for her or the child. Be very careful how you respond to this. I feel worried for you. She may be using the "possible" pregnancy to gain entry and then you will be engaged in the drama.

My reactions are just that, mine, I have no idea what your daughter is up to, I can only respond to what you've told us......but what you've shared now does not fit with what you've shared before. People don't change like that without enormous effort and help.....all she's been doing is using people and lying. Don't be blinded and then get stuck because of the pregnancy, step back and look clearly at what is going on.....protect yourselves......remember the past.

I raised my granddaughter. After that experience I was clear that if my daughter had any more babies, I didn't want to be involved. I knew if she did and I was involved, I would be raising that child too. There are many stories here of daughters getting pregnant when they are not in any position either financially, emotionally or mentally to have a child........often their expectation is that we pay for everything and take care of both of them. You and your husband should talk and look at all of the options before you commit to anything, (in my humble opinion)......I feel extraordinarily protective of you Mcdonna.......please be careful now.......please do what your gut tells you, your heart in this case, especially with a possible baby, will likely lean into empathy and compassion. However, if you look at it another way, it's a perfectly designed manipulation to get your daughter home, safe in your care where she and said baby will take over your lives for the next 20 years. PLEASE step back and give this enormous thought and take all the time you require.........this is your choice and it's a biggie.....do what is right for you and your husband.

You're ready to retire.........retire and go live the life you and your husband have imagined......

Stating what you want now is crucial. Once she's "home" you'll be in a whole new movie. And, you've been there before, you know how it goes.

Read Done Dad's posts about raising his 4 year old grandson and what he did when his daughter got pregnant again.

This is tough. Reach down deeply in your heart of hearts and ask yourself what it is you truly want, not out of obligation, fear, guilt or any manipulations but what it is YOU want. Do everything you can to protect yourself. Get out of the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) if you're in it by perhaps contacting a counselor to talk this through with.......some impartial person who can hear your concerns and support you for what is good for YOU. You matter McDonna. Figure out what you truly want and go with that.
(((HUGS)))

 

[BusynMember]

If she is truly pregnant and you give in to her because of it, expect her to have many babies to gain her things. Her story about the father, if she is pregnant, is probably a lie. The truth is not in her. Please dont ruin your life.!

 

[Snow White]

Recoveringenabler, a huge THANK YOU from my whole heart for your reply. I believe that we always second guess our choices because of the emotional ties we have to our children.

SomewhereOutThere - you know her tendencies so well. All of this might be fabricated. Time to peel back the onion pieces and see what's truly underneath.

You are both the voice of reason. And it is almost verbatim what her former psychiatrist told me last year when we did a file review. He told me that we should never let her back into the house.

Daughter says when she comes back we can go to the gym together (my safe/happy place with friends I absolutely will not introduce her to), do house renos/chores together, cook and of course, "see all of her friends."

With her histrionic tendencies, I was also thinking that she may have manufactured her pregnancy test results. It's funny that she has been running around Europe & Asia for 4 years using no birth control at all and the minute she comes to Canada to see the love of her life, she is suddenly pregnant?? If she is, was this her plan all along? I feel for the boyfriend, who is now in a psychiatric ward himself (on a 72 hour hold). Funny how every guy she gets into a serious relationship is either borderline, bipolar or has some other mental illness. She had a alleged "miscarriage" some years ago. One of her doctors had mentioned years ago that she may have infertility issues due to her longterm valproic acid use and it's associated Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome.

Husband says, "Maybe we should rent a place for her?" Really? Then we're on the hook for a one year lease after she decides to take off.

You have seen/followed my posts and I have not fabricated one thing in it (in fact, I think I have left out some equally bad stuff but you didn't sign up to read "War and Peace"!), so you know her operating pattern and can see it more clearly. I feel that I'm being rushed into making a decision and I now realize that it is exactly what she does every time....the drama is "instant" and I am being made to "fix it" immediately.

I'm going to call for a therapy session for hubby and I. I'm also going to check into a Al-Anon meeting. And I'm definitely going to stay grounded here for the time being. I already feel a little more at ease.

Thank you.

 

[Lil]

Oh Mcdonna, what a terrible thing to be tossed back into the stormy sea. The others are right, IF she is pregnant, well then that is on her and if you make it your problem you have her right back where she wants to be - in your pocket.

IF she is pregnant, she has months to go. IF she is pregnant, there is no rush for her to come to your home. After all, she managed all over Asia and now back in Canada, without you. She's playing ALL the angles. She's #1 pregnant, #2 involved with a possibly violent guy, #3 she's changed, #4, she wants to be your bestest girlfriend and do the chores and go shopping and work out and get facials...yes, read that in a tone dripping with sarcasm.

My husband is fond of saying: Lack of preparation on your part does not create an emergency on my part, or words to that effect. In my opinion, that applies here. Even if she's pregnant, there's no rush. If she's afraid of the boyfriend, she can go to a shelter. Don't let her rush you into decisions you are going to have to live with a long time.

 

[AppleCori]

Hi McDonna,

Glad you got your ‘houseguest’ out!

One thing in your post sticks out—your daughter felt the need to send you a photo of a positive pregnancy test—as if she felt the need to ‘prove’ she is pregnant. I personally would never feel I had to prove it to anyone. Almost seems fake.

I had a male friend once that was caught up with a woman who did the exact same thing—and, we believe, she was faking it.

She kept him on a string from a distance, and her ‘pregnancy’ lasted longer than humanly possible. Of course, there never was any baby after all that. I don’t think he ever really came to terms with the probability that the whole thing was faked, and he never was quite the same.

Anyway, we don’t even know whether this man is in a 72-hour mental health hold or not. That may just be something she said so that you will feel that you need to get her to your house quickly, before he gets out. The whole scenario could be fake, as well.

Even if she is really pregnant, Canada has plenty of services for women in that situation.

 

[recoveringenabler]

The "pregnancy" would give your daughter enormous leverage over you, the father, the system, everyone and everything. I was just thinking that your daughter is likely extremely smart, high IQ, sharp as a tack......many in my family are like that......brainiacs all over the place......they can talk you into or out of anything at all and do it with a smile.......and then.....once you engage in their perception of reality......it's YOU and me who go off the deep end. I've been involved in so many of theses kind of crazy schemes with my crazy family......I feel as if I have to wear armor around them because you never know when the hits will start coming at you fast and furious and just like your daughter...... it's immediate, it has to happen right now, waiting is a disaster, you're wrong to wait and made wrong for thinking about the past and all of the harm they've done.....it's happened to me so many times that I know the script now and how to respond. My response is always to step back, wait and discuss it with a professional or someone I can trust to tell me the truth. Once I step back and get my footing back, my clarity returns, my resolve returns and my memory suddenly shoots out all the reasons why I should not do what is being asked of me. To me, this sounds like it is your daughter's "end game"......she's finished with her traveling......she's older now and all she needed was to either get pregnant or feign pregnancy and there's her free pass back into your lives where you and Dad can pick up the slack.......forever.

 

[Snow White]

The things that start to come back to you after you digest all of the proper information here!!!

AppleCori - you mentioned the need for daughter to 'prove' immediately that she is pregnant. Got me to thinking back to my OB/Gyn working days (did 24 years there). She said how tired she was (and that she still had jet lag - after 2-3 weeks?) but that she couldn't sleep and needed to take a diazepam. I flipped and told her that she needed to stop the diazepam and any other narcotics/benzodiazepines that she might be taking immediately. She seemed shocked when I said that but replied, "I don't think I'll be able to sleep while "X" is in the hospital, so I'll take one tonight and get a good rest." Fast forward to OB/Gyn days - pregnancy tests can be false-positive for a few reasons: recent early miscarriage, medications (antianxiety, antipsychotics, anticonvulsants), chemical pregnancy, Urinary Tract Infection (UTI) - which she says she has, etc.

She knows how the health care system works here in Canada. She is not eligible for her "free" health care until she has resided in one province for 3 months. So, if she starts her "doctoring" here, she will be paying a hefty price (or leaving a trail of unpaid bills). There are "free clinics" she can go to and lots of resources for expectant moms. She has managed herself for 4 years (minus all of the fix-ups by mom & dad), so she can figure this one out. She says she intended to become pregnant - she can intend to see it out.

After meeting the other guy she was engaged to in Sri Lanka, I know it is not the men...it is her. The prior one I trusted with wiring a large sum of money to get to daughter when she was robbed in Sri Lanka. He had already split from her and was willing to do that for me because daughter had no ID and couldn't get the funds for her replacement passport, etc. I think he finally realized he couldn't save her and that it was time to get out before the tornado sucked him in completely.

I am so glad that you are making me stop, look and listen. Each question you ask or suggestion you make forces me to slow down. This isn't a crisis and it definitely isn't MY crisis.

 

[BusynMember]

Your daughter loved hospitals and the attention she gets there, whether truly ill or not. I really wonder if this boyfriend or the others really had mental illnesses or were really in the hospitals.

There are spectrums to everything. On the lying, scheming end, your daughter has no equal. You need to question her every utterence and until proven true, you must hold out doubt. If you asked her home perhaps she would suddenly have a miscarriage (real or fake) but now you would have to legally evict her.

I would never let anyone who would fake a GoFundMe back into my house even for coffee. She would, if able, rob you blind then run to Asia. If that is where she truly goes.

If she has a real baby, trust me you will
be blackmiled if you want go see that baby. There will be strings, cash, money involved or withdrawal of the child. Please be smart. Keep her at a distance. Even if she truly is pregnant. She is a good faker and will probably never loose her parental rights. She will use the baby to break your heart.

Love and light!

 

[Tanya M]

UGH!!!

Oh those desperate phone calls to mom because mom will fix it!

She says she's "changed" and that I need to stop blaming her for the past????

My son has used this line on me so many times! "Quit throwing my past in my face, I've changed, things will be different now", blah, blah, blah......
I have learned with my son to just simply say, "I'm not able to help you out"
I know that if I say anything regarding the fact that I don't trust him, he goes into the "quit throwing my past in my face" routine.
I also do not offer any explanation as to "why", no matter how much my son demands to know "why" I can't help him. When he asks "why" I simply repeat, "I'm not able to help you".

Husband says, "Maybe we should rent a place for her?" Really? Then we're on the hook for a one year lease after she decides to take off.

I advise you really think this through. When my son was released from jail 13 years ago I flew to Colo. to get him and flew him back here to where hubby and I now live. I knew there was no way my son could live with us but wanted to "help"/enable him. We put him up in an apt. for a while until we could close on the little house we bought. Our idea was that our son could live in the house, get a job, start paying us nominal amount of rent, and after being consistent for a few years we would give him the house.
What happened instead, he met a girl, girl got pregnant, they decided they didn't want to live in our little house while we renovated it so they moved.
We renovated the house and became landlords, renting it out.

Some questions you could ask about renting, could you go month to month or a shorter period of time, 3 or 6 months instead of a year.

Our heart always wants to help them out but we need to be practical and thoughtful in the decisions we make regarding them.
I always come back to this, are we helping or are we enabling?

 

[AppleCori]

Positive pregnancy tests (or pics of the test) can be found online as well.

Are you even sure she was robbed while in Asia?

 

[recoveringenabler]

Here's my suggestion for you today Mcdonna.......go have a pedicure and lunch with the girlfriend who hears you, comforts you and makes you laugh. This isn't your issue. Go practice living your life while your daughter is in her new drama........you'll be surprised at how quickly one can move out of that into your own life where peace and joy reign. It's always our choice whether we want to go down that road or not.

I like this story a lot......

“I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost... I am helpless.
It isn't my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don't see it.
I fall in again.
I can't believe I am in the same place.
But, it isn't my fault.
It still takes me a long time to get out.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in. It's a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault. I get out immediately.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.

I walk down another street.”

― Portia Nelson, There's a Hole in My Sidewalk: The Romance of Self-Discovery

Mcdonna........walk down another street.

 

[Tanya M]

RE, I love this!!

“I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost... I am helpless.
It isn't my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don't see it.
I fall in again.
I can't believe I am in the same place.
But, it isn't my fault.
It still takes me a long time to get out.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in. It's a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault. I get out immediately.

walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.

I walk down another street.”

 

[Snow White]

Positive pregnancy tests (or pics of the test) can be found online as well.

Are you even sure she was robbed while in Asia?

At this point, I'm not really sure of anything anymore. My only "real" see/believe was when I was with her in Sri Lanka for a week. The robbery apparently took place 2 nights after I left. There was a police report and a phone call to our house from the police chief but even though reported, it may not have happened.

Supposedly, the minute she arrived back in Canada, she was hospitalized (for a week) for her 3rd bout of dengue fever. This is unlikely, as the in-hospital bed rate in most provinces in Canada for non-insured patients is well over $1K per day. Unless her boyfriend/benefactor could come up with $5K-$7K, I'm pretty sure that was another lie. She never had dengue fever (as she reported to me) in Sri Lanka - she gave me her hospital records to take home from Sri Lanka and the tests were all negative. She thinks that because her admitting diagnosis is "rule out.....X" that she actually has "X" condition/disease.

Why is it that you would never believe this stuff from a door-to-door salesman or telephone scam artist but you will try anything to believe it from your child? Eternal hope.

 

[recoveringenabler]

Eternal hope.

And, it can be a double edged sword too. It can keep us stuck in a never ending circle of expecting something that is not real. It's us who have to get our expectations and hope in check and look at what is real. When we are in relationship with a person whose sole intention is to obscure the truth, to fabricate a reality to get something, then we have to become excellent BS detectors or continue getting caught in the web of deceit and lies. We override our gut reactions so much with our adult troubled kids that after awhile it's automatic. TRUST your own instincts, don't override them.

I always enjoy Eckart Tolle when he says, "argue with reality and you suffer." That helps me to do what it takes for me to POP OUT of the illusion someone is trying to paint into reality. My family are experts at 'smoke and mirror reality"...the one they make up as they go along for their own benefit......I was the only one who saw a semblance of truth and it took me decades to trust it. Just because everyone around you says that the earth is flat, doesn't mean it's true. Trust yourself. Put yourself first. Do what YOU want.

 

[Lil]

Positive pregnancy tests (or pics of the test) can be found online as well.

For the heck of it, I just googled "positive pregnancy test". There are literally thousands of photos that someone could cut and paste into a text or email. I don't think I'll ever believe anything again unless I've got a dated newspaper and the person sending it included in the photo.

 

[DoneDad]

Yes, this "good news" from a dysfunctional daughter is definitely the nightmare scenario. We are raising our 4 year old grandson and about a year ago we heard the "good news" again (different loser "father"). This time our response was to establish firm boundaries. We told her we were NOT supporting or raising another child of hers, and that our advice was to look into adoption, which she did. The adoption agency pays the expenses for the pregnancy, including a couple of months rent. The couple that adopted the child was a very nice couple, so it was in the child's best interest.

The first time around, our boundaries were not clear, she moved in with us during the pregnancy, started leaving the child with us more and more including longer and longer absences and trips to Las Vegas. Eventually, we were raising him and bonded with him, and because we didn't want either her and/ or the "father" (who doesn't support the child or see him at all) to suddenly get a notion to come and get him, we got permanent guardianship. Our home is the only home he has ever known and though it is tough raising a 4 year old in our 60's, we know there is really nothing else we could have done at that point. The second time around, we were in therapy and were clear that we didn't want to/couldn't raise another child, so we didn't put ourselves in the position of having to do that. The best thing would have been if we had done that the first time around, but we didn't.

In our situation, we knew she really was pregnant. It seems in your situation, it's questionable. She's used medical conditions/diagnoses before to manipulate people, so there's probably a good chance she's doing it again. Who knows how much of what she's telling you, if any of it, is true?
I would really read and re-read Recovering Enabler's advice - it was like a life line in our situation. Take your time and think through what YOU want to do, don't be rushed into anything. Think about this - if she does move in with you and has a baby, who do you think is going to be raising that baby? Her and the boyfriend (if he's even real) in the psychiatric ward? She's going to suddenly prioritize the child's needs ahead of her own and make the sacrifices that raising a child entails? You know what will happen - she'll be off on more "adventures" while you raise her child.

If she is faking the whole thing and moves back in, has a "miscarriage" and needs to be taken care of for an extended period of time, guess who gets to do that?

Either way, it's a lose/lose for you. I would let her know you're not in a position to help her at this point, really limit contact with her (including not reading negative social media stuff she posts about you), and, if you want to, give her a list of adoption agencies to contact. At this point, she's an adult who needs to deal with this situation, not just dump the whole thing on mommy and expect you to fix it for her.

Just an aside, with her level of sophistication, I wouldn't be surprised if she's reading these messages.

Good luck. Take care of yourself, do things in your own time and do things because that's what YOU want to do.

 

[Michelle809]

Mcdonna, my difficulty child is a boy but I also fear a grandchild from him. I would hope that whoever he is dating/will date will make sure that a pregnancy does not happen until he is much better - if that's going to happen at all.

I really hope your daughter isn't pregnant, but being so makes it much worse on us emotionally (hard to turn away an innocent child).

 

[Tired out]

My fingers are crossed that she is lying ( for a child's sake) and not pregnant. The pregnancy does sound too convenient to get into your home. Plus then she can have medical quicker, by living with/ mooching off you. I agree with the others..it isn't an emergency. a pregnancy is 9 months. if you decide it is real and want to be involved you have at least 7 months to decide and come up with a plan. However, if she is taking those kind of drugs being pregnant I would say far away from her. She only cares about herself, not the unborn baby or you. And come on..not every guy she gets involved with can be unstable, the common denominator is her. And supposedly the police called you, easily faked too.
Good luck!

 

[Copabanana]

Good counsel all around.

I agree with swot about this: if there were to be a baby and you were involved she would break your heart. The ultimate carrot and the ultimate stick. She would use you, soak you dry, dangle the baby, and pull her in, out and away, if you don't comply with her wishes. And then she would tell cps about how abusive you are and post about you on Facebook. There have been real life stories here about just this

Noooooo.

If there is a real baby...I would be afraid.

By being involved now you give her incentive to keep the baby. The baby is a big ticket item to her.

I would try very hard to not take the bait. But it would be very very hard for me. I wanted grandchildren more than almost anything.

I am sorry being a parent is so hard and painful for us.