The Denial is Just Shocking

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by WSM, Jul 4, 2009.

  1. WSM

    WSM New Member

    I don't understand.

    I wrote a couple weeks ago about how difficult child went to a therapist and psychiatrist appointment on the same day shortly after 3 knives were found in his room and his sister's DS and gameboy were found smashed with pieces hidden in his mattress. husband reported that both the psychiatrist and therapist said it could ALL be difficult child, there's 'something wrong' in the house, and someone else could be 'setting difficult child up'. The following week I attended the therapist appointment and mentioned it to him that husband had reported therapist had said he didn't think it was all difficult child and therapist looked shocked, glanced over at husband like he was going to say something, but I kept talking to make my point, and therapist didn't address it. But husband noticed it and mentioned it on the way home. "I didn't appreciate how therapist looked so confused when you brought up what he said."

    I think husband is lying. husband swears therapist is lying. "Why would therapist lie?" I asked last night. "I don't know," husband said, "You ask him. I guess he was covering his azz." Huh? Why would he care one way or another, his opinion is his opinion, he's not going to 'be in trouble' with me if I don't like his opinion. I'm a nobody, just the stepmother. However, he's 'in trouble' with husband for 'pretending to be all confused'. I doubt therapist cares one bit.

    husband says bitterly, "You have to decide whether to believe him or me, and of course you believe him. That's the problem with us, you don't trust me."

    Well, guess what, I think husband lied. He's been known to lie to cover up for difficult child before. His mother and family of origin are 'problematic' and he's lied for them as well. So yes, I think husband lied.

    The day after the doubt psychiatrist/therapist visit, difficult child was found with drugs at his summer camp, some kind of ADD medication. The police came, but no one admitted to buying or selling with him and he didn't have cash on him, and husband explained that he was seeing a psychiatrist and therapist on medications, just out of a mental hospital, etc... and the police did not arrest him. I'm guessing they felt the kid wasn't going to jail anyway, he's only 12, there's not tons of evidence and even if he's convicted, he's only going to be remanded to counselling, which he's getting anyway, and the paperwork and hassle wouldn't be worth it. During this interview with husband and the police, my 17 year old son and girlfriend walked up and were shooshed away. husband reports the police asked if difficult child had older sibs (he has 3), and said there's something wrong with this situation, and husband should look into it and that was that.

    So in one week 3 'professionals' all opined that difficult child was probably innocent of some if not all (this is nebulous) of these events. husband told me last night that the school thinks difficult child is wonderful, the camp thinks he's wonderful, the old school thought he was wonderful, my own kids thinks he's wonderful (not what I hear, but ok), and the only problem difficult child seems to have is when he's in this house and having to deal with the toxic relationships inside it.

    What about therapist who continually says he's 'very, very' disturbed'? husband thinks therapist is exaggerating. "Why would he do that?" "To keep his job." Ah yes, the one session a month payment surely makes all the difference to therapist's career. therapist is very respected nationally, affliated with a major research hospital, very experienced in adolescent boys, and the author of books. Yep, he needs to keep that one session a month, which even if he came up with a milder assessment he'd still have.

    husband is not going to follow therapist's recommendation that difficult child be put into a long term Residential Treatment Center (RTC). husband had complained that there was a six month waiting list and therapist had said, well, put him on the list. But husband doesn't want to put him on the list. husband said last night, "I'm not ready to have him go."

    Well, as we know it's all about husband's well being, right?

    husband has flipped in the last few weeks, he's building the case in his head that there's really nothing all that wrong with difficult child that divorcing me won't solve. Incredible. That's what his problematic family wants, by the way. Fine by me.

    I'm just amazed at the denial. What stories do you all have regarding denial?
  2. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    WSM, I've never seen this degree of denial. I don't even think it's denial. This is way beyond normal denial where parents sometimes try to make suspicious, quirky symptoms into "normal." Sounds like the lying to himself and others a way of life for your hub, if he also excuses his parents. Maybe husband has mental health problems and truly doesn't see the truth.

    Are you working on leaving him? That's the main issue here. He's mad that you don't trust him? You CAN'T trust him.

    Please get out of that mess. The kid is never going to get help and he may kill somebody. Call CPS for your stepdaughter. That would be the kindest thing and only thing you can do for her, since her father isn't going to protect her.

    Your hub needs as much help as your stepson. Once you are detached from the situation and no longer living there you will see how twisted he is. It is easy to see how stepson turned out the way he did. This man is trying to gaslight you, and you are living with it and doubting yoruself because you are surrounded by madness. It can almost seem like you're the one who is crazy because I'm sure husband is very convincing. Maybe he is somewhat psychopathic as well as his son, whom I'm convinced is well on his way there.
  3. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not


    My husband used to be in denial about our daughter. Sure, he would admit that things were a little "off" here and there....but he would often blame it on me. "You just need to....." he would tell me.

    Of course, at the time he was on the road most of the time. He would hear from me every night and I would cry into the telephone and tell him everything that had happened that day--and he was sure that i was being overly dramatic.

    It didn't help that so many tdocs said the same thing: "O your daughter is sweet. You just need to....."

    But now things have changed. I can tell you the exact moment that husband's eyes were opened to the reality of what I'd been telling him all these years. It was when he found a note in her bedroom that talked about killing her brother. That was it. Denial gone.

    As far as the tdocs are concerned--I know that part of my problem all these years is that my little girl has had the face of an angel....blond hair, big blue eyes, dimpled cheeks. And I would walk into every appointment harried and stressed out--and difficult child would turn her cherubic face to the therapist and say "My Mom doesn't love me...." and then, of course, it was so obvious that the cranky ol' mother was the problem.

    Now, however, difficult child has hit puberty....and puberty has hit back. She has developed terrible acne across her dimpled cheeks. Her blond hair has darkened and become very oily (and it doesn't help that she does not like to wash it)....PLUS she dyed a big swatch of her hair pitch black. And now she has taken to wearing black nail polish and dark, ripped-up clothing.

    So suddenly, she looks on the outside the way she has always acted--kind of nasty and rough.

    Sadly, though, difficult child doesn't know that she is making a different sort of impression on people these days and she has been getting very frustrated that people are no longer responding to her as though she is "such a sweet girl".

    Although part of me feels sorry for difficult child--a larger part of me feels relieved that it looks like we are on the road toward getting some kind of help. Her pedicatrician now believes there is a problem....therapist now believes there is a problem....Department of Juvenile Justice has records indicating there is a problem....AND we got a referral to try and get on a waiting list for a specialist in our area.

    I hope for your sake and the sake of your whole family that your husband will have an "awakening" of his own. And SOON!!!

  4. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    With my son, some of the profs (and me) would try to smooth things over with legal people sometimes in order to give difficult child more time working with mental health profs instead of getting deeper into legal punishment.The deeper the kid gets involved in the court system, the less mental health treatment (except behavior mod) they may get. I wonder if this is where the therapist is coming from in your case. As far as who lied- you might as well quit driving yourself crazy over that. It could be that therapist forgot something he said, something got misinterpreted, someone did blatantly lie, or whatever. You may never know or somehow the truth might come out later on but it's not going any quicker or doing your own mental state any good to try to figure it out.

    Now, if you realize that you really don't trust your husband, that's a different issue and you'll just have to decide if you want to try to repair that or not.

    As far as denial- my mother and brother epitimize it. 'Nuff said.
  5. slsh

    slsh member since 1999

    WSM - I think denial is pretty common and I guess almost to be expected. None of us expected to have children with significant disabilities. It wasn't something we even thought about, you know?

    Just based on life with my husband, and having 2 kids with severe disabilities, I have to say I understand where your husband is coming from. Much easier to grab hold of this thought that someone is setting up difficult child rather than come to terms with the fact that difficult child has significant problems. From a rational standpoint, it's ridiculous of course. But from an emotional standpoint, it makes sense. I'm not sure any of us begin to accept our child's disability until there is absolutely no other choice. Standing in your husband's shoes, right now there *is* another choice. He's latched onto this suggestion, or perceived suggestion, that something is wrong in the house and it's not difficult child's behaviors.

    I'm not sure there is much to be done to fight denial. It's a powerful thing, especially when it comes to our kids. We want more than anything for them to be okay.

    Unfortunately, it's detrimental to difficult child because he won't get the level of treatment that he needs until husband comes around, and it sounds like husband won't come around until he has no other choice. You're in a very difficult position.

    A funny story about denial from my father. When I was 10 or so, something clued my mom into the fact that I needed to get my eyes checked, can't remember what. Anyway, we went and discovered that I'm as blind as a bat - can't even see the big "E" at the top of the eyechart. So I get my glasses and I'll never forget that day - I was reading road signs and license plate numbers and billboards all the way home. It was the first time I could actually *see* stuff. It was amazing. My father was simply *devastated*. No child of his needed glasses. Truly, he was just completely wrecked over it. It's made me chuckle as I've raised my own kids - my father would not have survived my parenthood experience, LOL. It's all relative though.

    Divorce reared it's head in my own marriage, when we were in the beginnings of the worst of our difficult child's behaviors and we were getting some really stupid advice and explanations from therapists. I can't tell you how we survived it, because I don't know. Dumb luck, true love, or just plain stubborness. Probably a combination of the 3. But when we finally did cross divorce off as an option, things got better in terms of husband and me working together. He certainly hasn't always agreed with- my choices, but since I was the one who was dealing with difficult child 80% of the time, he's always backed me. If he has felt strongly about something, we've discussed it without turning it into personal attacks. It hasn't been easy and it sure as heck hasn't been a whole lot of fun sometimes, but... we've survived and around here that's about as good as it gets.

    I wish I had some good advice for you on getting your husband on the same page, but I think it's just time. Pretty pathetic answer, and I'm sorry. Many gentle hugs to you.
  6. ThreeShadows

    ThreeShadows Quid me anxia?

    I'm so sorry. This is a frightening alternate universe in which your husband and stepson live. I'm glad you are strong enough to accept your truth, for years I doubted my own reality.

    Please stay safe!
  7. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    I am so sorry that you have had to realize that your husband is possibly as ill as your son. Denial is very powerful. I do NOT think it quite covers your husband's reactions. in my opinion he has gone WAY past that river in Egypt and is fully into delusional behavior. I fail to see how anyone could see the level of disturbance as profound as it is and think that someone is setting him up. One or three or even five times, maybe. But that many times on a single day? Nope. Not buying denial. But I don't have to.

    You don't trust husband. You are not SAFE on a basic physical level in that house with that boy. Neither are your children. Your stepdau is NEVER going to be safe. NOTHING you can do will speed up her safety any more than you have already done. The sooner husband realizes he is delusional the sooner they ALL get help. She will probably have to find her own safety because as long as she is in the house with difficult child she won't EVER be safe. Not even if difficult child had two guards focused on him every second of every day.

    I know you want to save her. I know that agony. Her father is determined to sacrifice her on the altar of her brother's mental illness and his own mental illness. You are not her mother and are powerless. If you get out NOW then husband MIGHT let her keep a relationship with you. IF you stay then you are sacrificing YOUR children on that same altar to mental illness, as well as placing yourself there.

    I hope you can trust yourself enough to trust that what you know is real IS real. Trust yourself enough to know that even low income housing is better than a life where you and your sons are pawns in your husband's twisted game of life with his twisted, sick son.

    Your husband will ONLY face reality if he has NO other options. Even that may not be enough. I pray it will be enough, because otherwise there is no hope for difficult child or stepdau.

    Do what you need to and save your children. Now that you know the level of the sickness in the home, make a plan. Do NOT let on about it to ANYONE. Research to see if you are in a community property state. Find out what your legal rights are. Then get a shark of a lawyer and enforce them. YOU have been a victim of your husband and his son, just as much or more than anyone else in the house (I say more because with the disability I remember you have you may feel you have no options.).

    Know that we are here for you, no matter what.

    Sending hugs and prayers,

  8. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Oh, good heavens, Susie! I'm so glad I"m not the only one who sees mental illness in the husband and that it's way beyond denial. I mean, I know both of us could be wrong and everyone else could be right, but I so don't think it is! I think the man is as crazy as his son. For a while, I felt like my post was silly and going to stand alone!
    I'm afraid for WSM and her own kids! This man is as out there as his kid in my humble opinion. It's not just ADHD or autism here...he's denying VERY serious behaviors...

    Off my soap box.
  9. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    been there done that, but not quite to that extent. At least my husband didn't come up with-things the therapist didn't say. But the denial, and the "you don't trust me" part is partly ego, particularly male ego.
    You are right about this being about husband rather than difficult child, especially when husband says he's not ready for difficult child to go yet. It's not about him!
    Like I said, been there done that.
    We made it through, but it wasn't easy. I learned to detach. I'm still learning.
    Our relationship is better now ... calmer. My husband has learned to trust some of the experts. Whew.
  10. timer lady

    timer lady Queen of Hearts

    I'm so sorry ~ what a horrendous situation. At one of the lowest points with the tweedles my husband was willing to set up 2 households - he with wm in an apartment, me with kt here at home. He wasn't talking divorce - just 2 homes.

    It took a great deal of counseling, talking, crying & heartbreak for my husband to see this wasn't the answer. He & I began to put our marriage first, before the tweedles. If our marriage wasn't strong, we felt we couldn't be strong parents.

    Denial is an emotional cave - a place to hide from reality.
  11. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    MWM, I am so glad I am not the only one to see how mentally ill WSM's husband is!! In earlier posts I felt alone when I insisted the man is not in denial, he is delusional.

    WHY would everyone else be out to get her stepson? That is what I am wondering. Why her husband is determined to think others are setting the difficult child up? It doesn't make sense.

    Of course, nothing the man does regarding his kids makes sense, in my opinion. If he made sense he would have that boy in a long term facility where he could get help, and the husband would have the stepdau in therapy and he would be protecting his daughter, not throwing her onto the altar of mental illness he has built to worship his difficult child!

    Anyway, I am horrified by the situation. WSM, you NEED to take steps to get AWAY from this situation. Even if you must borrow money or beg help from a relative, your kids are worth it. YOU are worth it.



    Sorry to shout, but I feel very very scared for you. Each post has the situation taking a scarier turn, in my opinion. The difficult child is very capable of plotting long term harm to you and your children. You MUST put their safety above all other concerns. Even concerns about stepdau must come second, as your husband doesn't want her to have help.

    Sending many hugs to you. Off my soapbox also!
  12. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Well, I lived with a psychopath so this kid scares me but so does the husband. I can see where this kid got some serious mental health issues. The husband not validating the only clearheaded person in the house---WSM!!!

    WSM, I also hope you leave this sick situation. It won't improve and it's not the same as a man who won't see that his son has Aspergers or ADHD. This kid isn't showing "spacey" or "quirky" behavior. This boy is showing psychopathic behavior. Perhaps many people in husband's family show this behavior so he is used to it. I have no idea. But in my opinion this is way beyond being in denial. It does seem delusional to me...and dangerous. It's one thing to deny ADHD and another to deny psychopathic behavior that endangers everyone near him, including his own daughter (who he doesn't seem to care about).

    I wish you the strength to move on. The man is gaslighting you, trying to make you think everyone thinks YOUR thinking is "crazy", not his. And, sadly, if you live long enough in this sort of situation, you do tend to start to question if it's you, not them. Nobody is setting up difficult child. He is guilty as charged of everything and learning that he can do anything he wants and husband will believe he didn't do it, or at least fool himself into thinking he didn't do it.

    My advice is still to get out. You can't fix this sad situation.
  13. jbrain

    jbrain Member

    MWM and Susie,
    only came to this post a few minutes ago or I would have been right in there supporting your viewpoints. I agree the husband is as disturbed as his son--from all the posts I have read I think it is way beyond normal denial and I would hate to see WSM stay in this relationship any longer than she has to--I don't think it is fixable.
  14. skeeter

    skeeter New Member

    My ex has always refused to let NL be "labeled" as ADD. Or medicated. After all, he "did fine". Yeah - let's see, there IS a reason you are the ex. 8 jobs in 16 years of marriage. Hyper- attention on things, just to become non-interested (after spending thousands of dollars). I could go on and on.

    I've "suggested" that now that NL is 18, if he wants to try medications, he doesn't need his dad's permission, but so far he's not ready to cross his father. I've also "suggested" the best thing he could do is to get out of town (by joining Americorp or the service) for a bit and develop his own way in life (his older brother did).

    We'll see..................
  15. LittleDudesMom

    LittleDudesMom Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Linda said a mouthful in that sentence. Your husband can't see the forest through the trees even though it's glaringly apparent to other inlookers. I would venture an unprofessional guess that your husband is dealing with some mental issues of his own. There is a strong genetic connection.

    Protect you and yours foremost. I'm sorry for the pain this situation is forcing you to life with.

  16. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    I'm not taking sides here. I think there's only one side - WSM's.

    WSM - your husand is lying to you. So you want to know how to tell when he's lying? Watch his mouth - if his lips are moving, then he's lying.

    I've been following your threads on this and like a number of others, I'm really worried for you. Anything you can do here is being actively undermined. Even your own belief in yourself is being undermined. Along the way your safety is being put on the back seat.

    In some ways you are too close to see everything. But the rest of us, especially those who have backtracked threough your threads as you report this stuff, we can see some really scary things.

    I'm going from memory here, plus the post at the beginning of this thread.

    First - the therapist and psychiatrist. husband took the boy and reported back to you. What husband said worried you and you posted here; surely the psychiatrist & therapist could see this? Why did they support husband in his denial and why couldn't they see how scary difficult child is?
    Answer - they DID see, they DO see, but husband has twisted his reporting of this. Maybe husband really does believe that they think difficult child is an innocent and you are the devil incarnate; but you have now seen their reaction for yourself. Some people can raise denial to the level where they truly beleive what they want and mentally discard anything else. Others (and I suspect your husband is in this category) will manufacture the 'truth' to suit their own wishes. And some will then go on to believe their own invented stories even when they are so ridiculous they cannot be maintained.

    Now to the drugs at camp - I repeat what I said back then. husband was the one who spoke to the cops. husband was the one who told you what the cops said. husband made sure nobody else could tell you any of this, he has control of this story too.
    You know this - you need to keep this in the back of your mind. Because you keep falling back on "Why would the police say this?"
    Answer - the police DIDN'T say this. husband did. It is husband who has told YOU what HE says the police said.
    I didn't realise that your older son and his girlfriend were potential witnesses to the police interview. Why would husband shoo them away? Maybe he was trying to protect them, but also maybe he was trying to make sure there would be nobody to report to you a different story than the one husband wanted to tell you. Also, husband was busy trying to convince the police that this was just an isolated case of a kid who had maybe been set up by someone, rather than a problem kid who keeps doing the same thing over and over, and who has also made threats.

    So you both went to the therapist. You told your story and asked the questions husband must have suspected you would ask (tell me - did he work very hard to convince you that you didn't need to go, or that maybe you could cancel the appointment because the guy's not doing anything anyway? He IS doing his utmost to discredit the guy or in some other way make anything the therapist says or does is worthless).
    So you expressed your concerns, the therapist said nothing (he should have said something - why the heck not?) but his face spoke volumes.

    You did nothing wrong. Nothing was said by therapist. You COULD hsve turned to husband and said, "Why did you tell me this when it's clearly not true?" but you didn't. So what does husband do? If he was merely into denial, he would have accedpted gratefully your silence and lack fo questioning. But instead, he attacks. He accuses YOU of not believing him, he basically accuses you of disloyalty simply for oticing an expression on the therapist's face.
    For pete's sake!


    Let's assume for a mad minute that husband is simply a misunderstood person whose understanding of what therapist said is limited. Maybe husband misheard, or maybe therapist did change what he said. Maybe husband is telling the truth as he knows it.
    SO WHY ATTACK? He attacked, because he KNOWS he is lying to you and he is desperate for his lie to be upheld. The lie has been directly challenged (in husband's mind - guilty conscience has amplified the therapist response in husband's mind) and he HAS to keep you off balance. The best way to keep you off balance is to attack you, to accuse you and then to make you choose - believe him, or me.

    Now look at what this means for difficult child - for husband, you must believe him. That is far more important to him than difficult child's welfare. It's more important to him than your welfare. It's more important to him than anything else or anyoone else.

    It doesn't matter if you're in danger. It doesn't even matter if he (husband) is in danger. He could go to his grave, murdered by his son (or he could see you murdered) and it would be OK as long as his lies were believed.

    This sort of lie starts out small. But it grows and gets bigger until it gets to a point where lies have compounded too far and to admit to it is to admit to all, te whole pile of it comes crashing down. He has too much invested in his own integrity, which is laughable when you consider that it has happened because of lack of integrity. If only he had been honest with hiself and with others people form the begining - but he didn't. He has done it for the highest ideals, he tells himself - he is trying to protect his son. But he is in fact causing the problem, he is enabling damaging behaviour because he is himself doing damage by lying and actively preventing treatment which could help.

    WSM - you've been brainwashed by him and you're only just starting to come out of it. You know he is lying to you, but yet when he reports to you what someone else said, you continue to believe his version of events.

    And you wonder why it all seems so inconsistent, you wonder why you sometimes feel you may be the crazy one after all.

    Making you feel crazy is alo part of the abuse. He probably doesn't mean to be abusive, but again, he must now protect his own integrity and it is a higher priority than your welfare, your son's welfare, his son's welfare. he has convinced himself he is doing the right things. Frankly, he could convince himself that black is white.

    Stop fighting it. Walk away.

    Two things to consider -

    1) husband is lying to you plus he is actively interfering with any possible therapy or intervention for his son. He is constantly rescuing his son from 'trouble' (aka a path to intervention and help) and to do so has to increasingly deny the seriousness of it all. The end resukt will not be pretty, people will get hurt and I'm afraid you and maybe your kids are at the top of difficult child's likely hit list. husband has put your welfare behind his own ego. You are in danger. You cannot achieve anything while you are there, except harm to yourself. While you are there, husband has to constantly fight your disbelief by manufacturing more and more elaborate excuses. With you gone there is nobody to face him with questions, but also nobody that he needs to lie to and that actually could make it easier for husband to get help.
    It won't happen while you're there. It may not happen even when you're gone, but it is a fainter possibility. If you're gone, it should no longer matter to you, anyway.


    2) husband is right. You are going crazy. difficult child is a sadly misunderstood kid, someone in the home (probably you in some latered reality state) is out to sabotage this kid who just wants to do well in life. You are clashing with difficult child, husband has to choose to support his child rather than a wife who is unstable. husband hopes you will get yourself help and stop tormenting him and his child. He has to constantly defend tis child against your accusations and he's tired of it. You need to get out of their lives and give them some space. While you are there, friction could cause dangerous conflict.

    Both scenarios - you need to leave.

    I don't beleive scenario 2, by the way, but I list it because that is the version that husband will try to 'sell' if you stick around much longer. Chances are he's already using it. He's probably already told this to the cops, to therapist and psychiatrist. He may have been saying it to the cops when your son was about to walk up and overhear, and that would never do.

    WSM, get yourself out. You can do it gently, kindly and safely - simply tell husband that you feel he and difficult child need time away from you, just itme to spend together as father and son. Maybe without you there to push against, difficult child may relax a little. That can be your story, anyway.

    After all - this whole problem is down to stories. Play husband at his own game, if it will get you out of there safely.

    If you really love this guy and there is hope for this relationship - you need time apart now to sort this out. You won't sort it out as things are.

    If this relationship is meant to work out, then such a separation as I suggest will not be a problem. But if the relationship is dead in the water, you need to stop wasting time on it and instead get back to a good and happy life independently.

  17. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    Marg has a brilliant way of getting to the heart of things.

    She is right about the brainwashing. How do I know? My parents did this to me as a child. They kept up some of it as we kids were adults. It was all about my bro not being a difficult child and not being addicted or mentally ill.

    It took them having to deal with my brother's felonies for drunk behavior (even crashing into a HOUSE with a truck he borrowed from my dad!). To my mom there is no bigger sin than driving drunk. Even if you don't kill anyone it is attempted murder of anyone else on or near the street you are on. No joke. As a kid she had to drive her dad around after he got his license suspended for driving drunk. The doctor was a friend and delayed the blood test until it would come up sober.

    So drunk driving was the major horrible never ever do offense. And he did it. Several times. At one point the cops kept pulling him over and breathalyzing him for any minor traffic violation. They KNEW he was driving drunk, but he is so functional unless he is majorly messed up so he passed field sobriety tests many times.

    Your husband is brainwashing you. Big time. Sadly it will not help anyone. It will create a more dangerous, more mentally ill, more sneaky difficult child. Your husband is very mentally ill and getting worse by the hour. He knows that difficult child is dangerous, but cannot accept it. so he is brainwashing not only you but your kids and his daughter also.

    I missed that your son and his girlfriend were potential witnesses to the cops. At this point, you should ONLY believe what you see and hear the therapist and psychiatrist and cops say. Remember that game of telephone, where you sit in a circle and whisper to the person next to you? And it gets whispered on and on, until at the end the person says what they hear and it is nothing at all like what the first person says?

    Your husband is the entire line of people, and what he says is NOT like anything the other people say about difficult child.

    I am so sorry that you are in the middle of this mess. Marg has a wonderful way to back off and let him handle difficult child on his own. For difficult child's own good, you should "take a break" and let him not have to live with the possibility of being "set up". Move out and let him handle ALL of the stuff on his own. No record keeping, appointment making, chauffering, NOTHING. ALL of it is on husband's shoulders. he wants to work 70 and 80 hours a week? Well, he has to take care of difficult child also.

    I am so sorry. I know you care very much. But you also have to put YOUR kids first the way he puts difficult child first.
  18. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    not throwing her onto the altar of mental illness he has built to worship his difficult child!

    I love this phrase.

    Many hugs, WSM.
  19. WSM

    WSM New Member

    Thank you for all your time. You have all given me a lot of time and thought and I deeply appreciate.

    First to clear up a couple facts: I am not disabled. I make about $12K more than my husband,and next March will be getting a $7K raise. I work for the Fed govt and my job is secure and upwardly mobile. Next year I will also have transfer possibilities, where they will buy my house if I can't sell it. I will come out with debt, but manageable, my husband will come out financially devastated. He will have to declare bankruptcy. My kids are older. Two are going to college. I have an offer on a condo in a college town 3 hours away for them to live. My minor son is 15 and will be going to a special high school for kids who want to specialize in medicine as a career. I have a lawyer on standby, a very good one. I also do not mind living on my own. I did it before I married my first husband and was fine. I was a single mom for 7 years and enjoyed it. It's okay to be single.

    About all the people who are saying it might not be difficult child: yes, in these three instances, I have only husband's report that the therapist, psychiatrist, and police said difficult child might not be responsible for all the incidents. And yes, I verified with the therapist and caught husband in a lie. husband has lied about who said what in several situations and not just with his son, but also about other people. I think husband thinks he's just playing peacemaker and keeping people from being mad at each other, and sometimes I think he lies because he feels it demonstrates the 'spirit' of the situation, if not actual facts.

    It's a problem in our marriage and it's lying, pure and simple, it's gaslighting, and husband has lost a lot of trust because of it. He comes froma a lying god, you should see his mother. It alone is a marital issue that can ruin the marriage with or without any of difficult child's issues.

    However...that being said... the phenonmenon of people thinking difficult child just 'can't' be doing it is one I have personally seen. Over and over and over, I've had to pick my jaw up off the floor because some teacher, principal, social worker, has said, in complete contradiction to evidence sitting right in front of him/her, that difficult child couldn't have done it. This phenonmenon is incredible, I've seen it myself, and I don't understand it at all. About half of all people who deal with difficult child flat out deny there's much wrong with him.

    People who have had experience with psychopaths know fairly quickly what difficult child is. *I* believe difficult child is a psychopath. husband has not ruled it out, he just wants a lot more evidence. Well...the kid is 12, that's fair enough. I think difficult child also is going to have a form of schizophrenia, probably paranoid schizophrenia. A lot of his accusations have a hint of paranoia in them, and this week difficult child requested that we put an alarm on the INSIDE of his door as well as the outside, so no one can sneak in and do things or steal things. He wants it on during the day, I asked him why, since he's awake, and he got that inward looking, forget where he is look on his face that I think is caused my mental illness, he says he just want it. (this look is different from the psychopathic black eye, skin crawling, filled with hatred and calm rage that I've also seen on his face)

    I think it's 75% possible that psychiatrist did say that it can't possibly all be difficult child, simply because in my experience if you get 3 people, one of them will be convinced of it against all evidence. The police I think are uncertain about what the problem is and know not much will be done about it in any case, so they let it pass. The fact remains if they thought difficult child was dealing drugs at the community center summer camp, in the same building as the mayor and the city council, they would have arrested him. They have arrested him before. Whatever husband report they said or didn't say, the fact is, the police did not arrest difficult child even though they found stimulants on him. So maybe husband slanted his version of the event, colored it, the fact is the police did not arrest difficult child and did not investigate further.

    The psychiatrist might have said it because she's only seen difficult child 20 minutes 4 or 5 times and most of those 20 minutes would be taken up with discussion of drugs. She's spent maybe an hour and 15 minutes total discussing his activities and feelings with him and/or husband. That's not even long enough to list all the stuff, and if you do, it sounds crazy: knives and stabbing, hidding shoes and uniforms, getting himself kidnapped, cowering in his desk computer cubby, ripping out the ceiling fan, syrup all over the room, hiding 13 hours in the shed, peeing in baggies, not violent, not eating in front of people, doing well away from home, stealing from classmates, presenting well to doctors, drawing a picture of killing his sister...

    It's all over the map on dysfunction and doesn't make sense except from the perspective that he is both schizophrenic and psychopathic and some of the incidents like hiding in the shed and squeezing in the computer cubby and peeing in baggies, and hiding his shoes, and cleaning the pool for 8 hours comes from the schizophrenic part and the knives, and stealing, and putting electronics in the pool, and allegations of abuse come from the psychopathic part.

    And it's almost impossible for most professionals to diagnosis a 12 year old with either schizophrenia or psychopathy. They are both horrifying horrible dxs, and last resort dxs. And difficult child is only very mildly schizophrenic, in the very early stages. And it's unprofessional to diagnosis pyschopathy in 12 year olds. TWELVE. Too young. And yet... those who have a lot of familiarity with psychopaths know. But even if they know, what can be done? There's nothing to be done about 12 year old psychopaths who aren't an overt and immediate threat to others or themselves.

    I think the therapist knows. He uses the term, very very disturbed. Not very very sick but very very disturbed. And he dropped the idea of behavior modification. But what can he do? If husband won't put difficult child into a Residential Treatment Center (RTC), what can therapist do? He's just going to do private therapy with difficult child regarding his mother (or so he says).

    But psychiatrist I think sees this nice kid with this long list of crazy quilt serious allegations against him and doesn't buy it, like so many don't buy it. Then she hears he has an absent crazy mother, a fed up stepmother (true), an overwhelmed father, and three teenaged stepbrothers and does like so many---assume it's not difficult child. Especially since difficult child is a master at projecting innocence, and will 'manfully' confess to things he's been caught redhanded doing. (see, he's honest, must have a conscience to he had any choice).

    So I think it's very likely psychiatrist said that. However, I don't think it's 100% sure because psychiatrist's recommendation matches very conveniently with another family agenda husband has--to reunite the kids with his mother. She has been more or less estranged from our family since she hit me in the face 4 years ago, we are waiting for an apology. She whines she just wants to be a graaaaaandmother, and doesn't know why she's being punished since I 'shoved' her and besides whatever she did, she's been punished enough and it's time to move on.

    I don't know that husband cares deeply about what she wants except that he and his brother were very close, best friends, and mother in law has coopted Brother's wife. Brother's wife thinks husband is terrible for the way husband treats his mother and (I promise I am not making this up) Brother's wife won't let Brother have a relationship husband until husband treats mother in law the way sister in law approves of. Did I tell you husband comes from a highly dysfunctional family? Brother and husband are in their forties, but sister in law who's only been married 5 years longer than I've been married to husband gets to tell them who they can play with.

    husband is desperate to make peace with his family and when psychiatrist said someone is setting difficult child up and husband should get him out of the house but not to an Residential Treatment Center (RTC), perhaps a family member, I thought...aha! Sure. There's a lie. Righto. How convenient. Your family of origin are brutally pressuring you to send the kids to mother in law and suddenly the psychiatrist says you should do it too, and also says an Residential Treatment Center (RTC) is no good. My, my, my, what a coincidence.

    But I don't believe it anymore, because husband at first said "I'm going to do it. difficult child's going to mom's. I don't care what you say. You have no say. The psychiatrist says difficult child is better off going there."

    And I said, "I think it's a bad idea. Your family cannot possibly help difficult child." husband is never happy when I point out how inadequate and dysfunctional his family is. And he kept arguing, reviling me, and stating he was going to do it no matter what I thought. I refused to argue, explained myself only once, and then just said, "I think it's a bad idea, I think it's a bad idea."

    And yesterday which was d-day for sending him, husband took my advice. He mumbled, "I think it's best he goes, but I'm going to take your advice. Against what the psychiatrist says, I'm going to do it your way. And he's not going."

    And difficult child is home still. So now I think maybe psychiatrist did say it. And I'm shocked that husband took my advice, he could have repaired the damage with his family and gotten several weeks of respite and a huge day care cost savings all by sending difficult child to mother in law, but he didn't. He says it's because he trusts my judgment.

    Someone asked if husband tries to keep me away from therapist and psychiatrist visits. No, he invites me and has scheduled therapist visits for my convenience and has never criticized anything I've said. In fact, when I challenged him about the psychiatrist's comments, he challenged me to come and question her myself.

    I understand not wanting to believe. As a bio-parent he needs a higher level of proof than me. It may not be fair, but in a certain catagory of problem, I just assume it's difficult child. For it not to be difficult child, he has to be proved innocent. For husband he needs the proof, near absolute proof. We almost never have absolute proof. And lots of time we have 60-80% proof. And occasionally, we have 30% proof. Here's an example.

    husband and difficult child went away for the day. When they came back husband put the backpack on the table and put difficult child in his room. I saw. difficult child didn't come out downstairs until afternoon the next day. He used the upstairs bathroom, etc... But by then, difficult child's brand new bathing suit, one croc, and sunglasses were missing from the backpack. I'll be the first to tell you, I'm sure difficult child didn't go near it from the time it was set there to the time the stuff was found missing.

    I assume it's difficult child even though I have no idea how he did it. That's a category of michief he does, and he specializes in just disappearing one shoe. husband thinks difficult child has to be ruled out. He's sure he packed it. All the rest of us had an opportunity to do it too. It seems like difficult child is the only one with an alibi. So husband didn't believe. I could understand.

    Then later the same day, I get difficult child for dinner and notice one of the two alarms set to guard his window has the battery separated from it. I wrote once about how husband and I set up those alarms to make one go off if the other is approached and both are aimed towards the window so he can't go in or out at night.

    It's a 8v battery and the back of the alarm had fallen off and the battery was lying on the desk top. I'd noticed it a day or two ago, but the alarm was still working. Now that alarm was separated from the battery which was lying next to it just barely not touching the connectors.

    difficult child said it must have just fallen off. Maybe. husband thought it plausible. How could difficult child pull the battery off without setting off either alarm. I demonstrated how he might have crept up from behind against the desk, put his hand on top to steady it, and pinched off the battery.

    But how did he turn off the other alarm, he can't get out without turning off the other alarm. How did he do that, it's upside down resting on it's button.

    Honestly, I have no idea how he did it. But to me it doesn't matter. Somehow he did. A couple weeks ago the alarms kept going off one afternoon. difficult child said he moved his elbow or the curtain fluttered from the ac vent. I think he was practicing that day how to do it, and inadvertently set if off a couple times. I don't know how he did it, but he figured it out. I think he will keep doing it and we eventually will figure out how he did it. For a suspicious stepparent, this is enough evidence for me.

    But for an anxious bioparent, this went from being impossible to being unlikely. husband said he woke up every couple hours last night worrying about it, "I don't see how he could have done it, the second alarm was upside down, etc...." and "Maybe it was daughter; difficult child has taken so much of her stuff and she was alone downstairs early morning and had the opportunity and does mess around in other people's things, etc..."

    There's legitimate room for doubt.

    husband goes two steps forward, one step back, and then when I think there's progress he goes 5 steps backwards.

    Here's an example:

    I keep a log. I've shared it here. What happened each week. One week, I forgot to put a knife incident down on the log. husband thought it might be a plant because it was not well hidden as the other knives have been, and easily found. He thought both someone else might have done it hurriedly, and also thought, maybe difficult child used it as a decoy: we'd find that knife and then leave, while the other knives were left in the room. That's a possibility I'd never thought of and give husband points for thinking it up. Step forward. husband searched the room (step forward) and found no other knives. And then he said he just didn't believe that THIS knife incident was difficult child's fault. That THIS one was one of those he thought might be a plant. Step back.

    In any case, I forgot to put it on the log. And then he reminded me to. Step forward.

    Mixed messages. Mixed feelings. Tangled suspicions. Confusion.

    But then yesterday, husband told me why he didn't want to put difficult child in the Residential Treatment Center (RTC). It was because the psychiatrist said it wouldn't help. And the therapist even said it wouldn't help (therapist said he couldn't guarantee it would help, it might not). therapist said much more about how 'we' needed the break from difficult child (true). And husband believes therapist is exaggerating how disturbed difficult child is. He laid out a ration, very convincing set of reasons not to. It didn't convince me, I knew it was denial, but it would have convinced almost anyone else. And at the end he said in conclusion: "So I don't think that's the right place for him." (three steps back), Pause, then husband said, "Yet." (one step forward).


  20. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    i wonder if difficult child does some of this (stuff disappearing) to keep you and husband in a state of chaos- maybe to keep problems stirred up between you?