The win and the loss

[Scent of Cedar *]

I know I created a destiny, too, but so much I was exposed to was by accident. There was no intent, just "being there" which is a wonderful movie about the same type of character.

It was the way he defined his situation, Copa. That is what mattered, in Forrest Gump. So many times lately I have found myself feeling blasted. I remember that scene from Forrest Gump. Bubba has been shot. Bubba says, "Why'd this happen, Forrest?" And the simplest answer, and the best: "You got shot, Bubba."

And then, Forrest did the next right thing.

And the next.

Bubba was still gone.

He got shot.

Cannot change the past; cannot change one thing about any of it. But we define ourselves in how we see it.

We can do the next right thing.

Forrest doesn't spend any time being angry or thinking in ways that justify anger. Not throughout the whole movie. Even when the kids won't let him sit with them on the bus. I just got that. Even when his mother is dying. He says: "Mama, why'd this happen." She says, "Oh, it's just my time, Forrest."

Or something similar.

I will watch that movie tonight. (I am all wrapped up in how I think about anger now, because of IC's response. This is my second read before posting. I am seeing everything now in relation to my anger. To that choice I am making, like a little dictator, myself.)

I am always trying to figure out what happened and how it all goes together and why it happened as it did. I need to say: "You got shot, Bubba."

Do the next right thing.

That is freedom.

That is not taking blame and not laying blame. That maybe, is the true harm in what happened to us, and is the thing we can not see, now. That dynamic of needing to blame. Maybe that is what we need to look at. How that dynamic is the twisted thing in our FOO, and is the thing we need to drop, and leave, and let go of.

That need to cleanse ourselves. Maybe that whole line of thinking is the wrongness at the heart of things.

It is not my "job" to hold them responsible. Depending on your beliefs, the Creator or Karma or Life will hold them responsible. I can let go of that part.

So, this is a way to understand how not to judge. For me, to understand what happened, to have a look at it through my own eyes instead of through their self-justifying eyes, makes it ~ requires a judgment call. If they were wrong because they did this to me, then what happened to all of us did not happen because I am some defective person, some fraudulent person they (she) had a right to kick or hurt or to hurt those I was supposed to protect right in front of me (or when I was at school), turning me into a coward in my own eyes.



So, I am still in process, then.

Because beneath the anger, if I were honest, is deep, deep pain. This is true. I have posted before about making my sibs not real. Poor things. When I do bring them back, all I am is mad at them because of what they cost me. Because of what it cost me to love them.

Or something.

You are right, IC. Life wasn't fair. In those ways, life was not fair.

"You got shot, Bubba."

Now, do the next right thing.

The nature of the mental barrier, to me, is simply this: I will protect myself and my own from harm.

Therefore, distance as necessary, including "no contact" if that is the only distance that works. Anger, I can let go of. They have a right to be angry also. Life wasn't fair. But I am not required to be at the receiving end of their anger, just as I have no right to direct my anger at them.

I don't remember where I heard this quote, but someone said once "It's not worth being angry unless it will make a difference." And for FOO? It's not going to change a single thing.

I will protect myself and my own from harm.

Yes. This is an eyes open way to see it. I think I pretended or believed or held faith with or some other way to justify not seeing the intention to do harm that did exist. This figures in to my posts about my family seemingly intensifying their attacks when the family D H and I created became so dark and troubled. It was not that they had changed.

I had.

I was vulnerable, and so, the things they always did ~ it surprises me now that they betrayed my belief in them and in myself. But if I had never been vulnerable, the things they routinely do would not have mattered.

Without the core of shame, none of it would have happened as it did ~ I would not have defined their betrayals as anything that mattered, anymore than I ever had. So in a way, what I am angry about now is not them.

Now I have to go back and read the part about anger being useless unless it changes something.

I loved that.

"It's not worth being angry unless it will make a difference."

I think I am mostly angry when I go through FOO issues because I am so afraid. I think that it is the energy of anger that enables me to break through denial; not that we break through and then, become angry.

But that when we are angry, we are breaking through. We think it is one thing, but maybe, it is something else that is happening to and for us.

I love this quote. It has to do with the real nature of the thing we label anger. And therefore, see as a wrongness, as our having failed, somehow.

So what is anger.

What is that energy, really.

We have been taught it is wrong. But we have established that our FOO teach with prejudice, like a tyrant does, too.

They have a right to be angry also. Life wasn't fair. But I am not required to be at the receiving end of their anger, just as I have no right to direct my anger at them.

I am thinking about this.

I am very angry at them, right now.

So maybe, I am afraid.

I am not required to be at the receiving end of their anger....

just as I have no right to direct my anger at them

You are more ethical than me, IC. Just for today, you are. :O) But I will work on that thinking about anger, and about being imprisoned in it, and about what it is I am afraid of, were I to let my right to be angry about what they've done...so. I am still blaming, then.

I am still saying, "You had no right."

Part of healing.

Sacred ground.

But one day, I will be in that place where you are, where I ~ I don't know. Where anger just is a thing that is real. Too. A thing that is a real thing, too.

Anger, I can let go of. They have a right to be angry also. Life wasn't fair.

Yes.

This part I get.

This is a way to see how to see, from the center.

Internal locus of control, then.

Thank you.

"It's not worth being angry unless it will make a difference." And for FOO? It's not going to change a single thing.

It's not going to change a single thing.

Yes, this is true too, IC.

I can see that this would be so, but I am not there yet.

I am still "laying there and relishing my abandon" like in the Tom Petty song about the refugee.

I must need to blame them for a little while longer. ("I must need to blame them for what they've done those feckless, pointless, worthless, useless, rotten criminal elements!!!" hisses the hidden Cedar, elevating herself through her anger.

Huh.

Oh, brother.

Lots to think about.

Thank you for responding as you did, IC. You post using so few words, but somehow, they are the right words.

Cedar

 

[BusynMember]

What IC said is a great post. That is how I feel. It is not our jobs to hold others accountable. It is our jobs to hold ourselves accountable and to do what is best for us.

 

[Copabanana]

It is not my "job" to hold them responsible.

I do not know if I agree. Maybe I do, but I will think about it. The group that has hunted down nazi war criminals for the last 60 plus years, does so for a reason. To hold them accountable. On principle. Not against the individual perpetrators.

The oral history project funded by Steven Spielberg is about honoring the memory of those affected but also never forgetting the crimes.

The groups that try to find all of the stolen artwork and track down title to real estate that was seized do so not only to restore it but to right a wrong. Abstractly. for principles.

We hold our children responsible for their acts not just to protect ourselves and them, but because it is the right thing to do. Because we believe intrinsically in right and wrong.

At the heart of things holding a boundary is about right or wrong. I will not allow you to wrong me. I will not allow myself to wrong you.

hurt or to hurt those I was supposed to protect right in front of me (or when I was at school), turning me into a coward in my own eyes.

When there have been wrongs that have accumulated for a period of time that have built up, they have built up for a reason. One side has been or has felt unable to respond appropriately.

There is blame there. And often times that blame has been turned against the self.

(I went away for a few minutes and came back. I am thinking here of when I went to that conference around 1980 where journalists were telling people for almost the first time about the atrocities being committed in Latin America during the dictatorship. And my relative indifference. I mean, I was an emphatic and left wing type person. Of course I would think it was a wrong thing...but I was more wrapped up in myself, to care all that much. I do not judge myself harshly. Gratefully, I have changed somewhat. (I have to leave again for a few minutes. Sorry.)

Now what would be the reasons that somebody would allow other people to victimize or to otherwise mistreat them?

Overpowered would be one. Held against their will, another. Tricked. Dependent.

Or the generalized perceived incapacity to see how to defend themselves or to be aware or believe that they can.

I believe that the passage I have put in italics pretty much sums up the situation of a child, and the adult child who has been victimized.

The issues here are guilt and shame. Whose fault was it? Who is to blame? Who is responsible?

if I had never been vulnerable, the things they routinely do would not have mattered.

There is the legacy of "fault." "It must have been my fault." That Mama hurt me. And still does. That Papa left me. And then degrades my memory.

But we were vulnerable to them, Cedar. We were babies. Their babies.

We were not there with our shotgun ready by the door to defend, either ourselves or our children. We are learning how to do so. First we have to sort out responsibility. Is it is or someone else? Then and only then can we be strong enough to have the boundary. And the shotgun. If we do not sort it out first. We will probably shoot ourselves with the gun.

I have a shotgun. No bullets. I may well get some. That is not a joke.

If we do not sort things out, as we are doing, we blame ourselves and stay just as powerless as we ever were.

We are talking trauma here. As well as boundaries. The residue of the past. The garbage that must be cleaned up. It is not only a question of: protecting myself and my family now.

A putrid mess must be cleaned up and responsibility must be determined. First of all, there is the need to stop blaming oneself. It is not my fault.

I am still saying, "You had no right."

Those culpable must be identified and held responsible. Not for punishment. Not to determine guilt. Not to judge. But to clean up the moral mess. The swamp that has developed in our own minds.

There is a famous book by an anthropologist, long dead, named Mary Douglas, called "Purity and Danger." The book talks about the line between clean and unclean which is a basic boundary in all human society. There is so much interesting in it that does not pertain here, like how we are attracted to the unclean/to danger and want to test it/negotiate it. I do need to go back and read the book.

I digress. There are some of us who have putrid messes in our psyches. That need to be cleaned up. There are moral morasses in our history that people cannot stop studying because of the lack of clarity, messiness, that they feel compelled to sort out. World War I, for one, is such a topic. Who was responsible?

Everybody responsible is long dead. There is no possibility of judgment, of punishment. But clarity is wanted. To understand. There is the believe that with clarity and understanding will come the possibility of power and understanding.

How is our questing different?

Because beneath the anger, if I were honest, is deep, deep pain.

Anger is a screen emotion. To cover up, to protect something enormously more intolerably painful to feel. Like incredible pain. Like tremendous pain, dependency, a nothingness that comes from fear of abandonment. That would come close to feeling non-existent or dead. Babies die of this.

"You got shot, Bubba."

Now, do the next right thing.

Yes.

M's sister comes to mind, the evil one, who secretly plotted to put her parents' home in her own name (that actually had been purchased by M. Which for him does not enter into things one bit.)

He has been at the point the last month or so where he will not talk about it anymore or allow anybody else around him do so (except the people culpable, who still need to sort things out). But he does not. Done is done. We go forward. Enough.

But here, everything is on the table. Except for the need of those who did it, to take responsibility. Do the next right thing. All the rest of us have no part of it. He will not listen.

M last night told me this: You have to make a choice, to decide to live or die. Because this not sleeping is not good. Maybe you have reached the point where you have nothing more to do in this life. And have lived enough. Realized your dreams. Done what you needed. And you can let go. Maybe not.

But this staying up through the night is not for me or for you. I cannot sleep. You do not sleep. And in the night awake and asleep you call for your mother. This has got to stop.

"What do I say?"(I did not know that I do this.) I told him I had been having a hard week, this past week.)

"You cry 'Mama' through the night."

And M continued "All of this that you have suffered these past more than two years was in you. It was always there. All of it is making you stronger. Accept that and let your mother go. She loved you and you love her."

Me: "My mother did not love me that much."

M: "Yes she did."

So what I am saying is this: Each of us always was strong enough, is strong enough to face what we must, and what we choose to do. I was always strong enough to be with my mother. Although I felt otherwise. I could have loved her and protected myself. Actually I did. But too much. I need not have done so.

I agree with Insane. We are strong enough to love. We always were. We are now. It is a decision. I never realized this.

COPA

 

[BusynMember]

I do not know if I agree. Maybe I do, but I will think about it. The group that has hunted down nazi war criminals for the last 60 plus years, does so for a reason. To hold them accountable. On principle. Not against the individual perpetrators.

Copa...I hope you do not take this wrong.

I feel all of us, yourself certainly, made very difficult choices for our own good. We are stronger because of it. But I don't compare our FOO to my Nazis, whom I loathe with every fiber of the being.

The Nazis trapped, held and victimized people against their will. They couldn't walk away. They had no choice. They couldn't move to another part of Germany...in fact, they could not move anywhere.

In my humble opinion, that is way different than our FOO whom harmed us, but whom we can walk away from if we choose. They didn't kill us or put our lives in danger. They broke our hearts, but we are strong and survived. Our siblings suffered the same substandard parenting we did so they have problems of their own. I know for a fact my siblings may not blame my mother for it, but they suffered because of our upbringing. Both of them. A lot. It is obvious. They don't need any more than they already suffered.

So, although I validate how you feel (it IS valid) and respect you in every possible way, myself...I think differently. I know life is hard and that they will have their own challenges, some terrible, and that I don't have to do a thing. And there will still be justice for all of us. Our FOOs are not legal criminals. They are just mean to us and life, on it's own, will serve all of us with humility. Even if some can't admit it.

Hugs and hope you don't take this wrong.

 

[Copabanana]

But I don't compare our FOO to my Nazis, whom I loathe with every fiber of the being.

Of course I do not hold my FOO as equal to Nazis. And of course I do not take offense, Serenity. This is a discussion, an important one, to find where we stand, each of us, ourselves. It seems we are not alone.

The paragraph below I took just now from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

The main issues discussed by philosophers on the topic of evil have been: Should we use the term ‘evil’ in our moral, political, and legal discourse and thinking, or is evil an out-dated or empty concept which should be abandoned? What is the relationship between evil and other moral concepts such as badness and wrongdoing? What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for evil action? What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for evil character? What is the relationship between evil action and evil character? What types of evil actions and characters can exist? What is the proper analysis of derivative concepts such as evil institution?

The German people, the Austrian people, the French, Italians, and others were just people like us. No more evil or bad. No less.

I posted Sunday, I think it was, something I did not know, that the Danish people and their government protected their Jews. Stood up for them, and tried to and successfully did protect the grand majority. At the heart of it, these were individual decisions, which became collective ones.

I think what happened in our FOOs is the same kind of decision. We, each of us, may have to in our lives make decisions that reflect upon the collectivity, the society as did the Danes, the Germans, etc. The only difference between these kinds of decisions and those made by our family members is the scope. Moral decisions are moral decisions.

By saying evil can be "banal" is not to minimize it. It is to say that evil can be done in a gray flannel suit or a Hermes scarf. Or inside a house where nobody sees against a child.

I cannot presume to know anything about evil. Really. I am not a philosopher. I am just me. But I can think about it.

I am coming down on the side of the rest of you. I agree with Insane. I agree with you.

But I believe that we need not minimize what was done to us. Even if it was done out of fear, shame, greed--small reasons that we can easily forgive. (By forgive I mean let go of the need for vengeance or judgement.) By seeing it in its bigness, our own suffering, is not to make smaller horrible atrocities such as the holocaust. It is to acknowledge what happened to us, to accept the reality of it. That it was wrong.

By doing that, a paradoxical thing occurs. It enables us to do right. Gives us the moral fiber and the courage to do the right thing. To choose right.

I believe in right and wrong. I believe we can face the truth of our own lives. I believe wrong was done to us. I believe we can face it. I believe we can forgive. That is, let go of the anger that corrodes us and makes us weak. Which is different from reconciliation.

Cedar is the only one of us who writes the particulars of her life here on FOO who has a mother who still lives. I believe Cedar is strong enough to see her mother. I fear that she will suffer as I have and I hope that she does not.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the things we do in our own private lives are in a different category altogether than what happened in Europe or Argentina or Southeast Asia or everywhere else. But where does it start, Serenity?'

All of those people were part of families and societies that somehow influenced or failed to curb their willingness to do wrong or their responsibility for same.

There is a reason to hold people responsible and to hold responsible ourselves for our moral decisions. If not in ourselves and in our families? Where else? Where do we do have control and responsibility, at the start of it, where else?

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

I am finding this conversation too interesting and I need to go about my business. But I will say just this (or ask it):

What makes a Nazi a Nazi? (Besides the obvious, that he or she belongs to the Nazi party.)

There was a concept called Authoritarian Personality that at one time was put forth to account for the predisposition.

If you look at the concept, the type of people included, and the speculation about the kind of parenting, environments, and families that most likely (but not always) to produce it, you may find families like our own.

The German Reich and the Holocaust were not born whole. They were created by millions and millions or billions of moral decisions of individuals like me and like you.

COPA

 

[New Leaf]

It is to acknowledge what happened to us, to accept the reality of it. That it was wrong.

By doing that, a paradoxical thing occurs. It enables us to do right. Gives us the moral fiber and the courage to do the right thing. To choose right.

At some point as a child, and subsequent chapters throughout my life, because of how I grew up, I thought I was broken, that something was wrong with me.
So, I am looking at this statement, in a way that the right thing becomes understanding that it was not us. In order to understand this, we do have to go back and revisit the past, to know what really did happen.
So much is buried in layers.
Then, there is the concept of looking at it through our own eyes, not the eyes of our abusers.

Which is a tough knot to untangle, not only because it happened to me as a child, but also because I was told over and over, and am still told, that I was too sensitive, it wasn't that bad, move on.

I think it is difficult to revisit this stuff, without cycling through different emotions, especially anger, because as a child, I was not allowed to be angry about it, feel or exhibit any emotion, I was supposed to ignore it.
That in of itself, is paradoxical. I can only speak for myself, but to me, a child should have a sense of protection, safety, security in their own home. I did not have that. I would never know when, on any given moment, the rug would be pulled from under me. Then, I was not supposed to cry.

That is my truth.

Yes, life is not all roses, it is not fair, many people grow up with difficult circumstances.

All we know, as individuals, is the life we lived.

I believe in right and wrong. I believe we can face the truth of our own lives. I believe wrong was done to us. I believe we can face it. I believe we can forgive. that is, let go of the anger that corrodes us and makes us weak. Which is different from reconciliation.

I believe this also. Face the truth of our own lives. It is not an easy thing to do, and write about. Especially, if one has been forbidden, it goes against the unwritten family law of secrecy. Loyalty.

It is a complicated tapestry, knowing something wasn't quite right, being taught to appreciate the goodness (and there are fond memories woven in) then delving back into the closet of my mind, to pull out that which has been hidden.

There is no right, or wrong, as far as the ideas presented that I have read here, because it is such a personal experience.

I appreciate all perspectives.

You guys are a challenge to my brain.......

I have to admit, some of the content of this thread, is way over my head, and I have to do research, the banality of evil, is a whole different level of discussion, it does not come easy to my high school diploma, university of Google training.

The banality of evil......

I looked into several articles on it, and one explained this of Arendt's treatise, as the coiner of the phrase-
"In a sense, by calling a crime against humanity "banal", she was trying to point to the way in which the crime had become for the criminals accepted, routinized, and implemented without moral revulsion and political indignation and resistance." One of the most interesting comments was that Arendt (on Eichmanns heinous nazi war crimes) "faults him for his obedience, his lack of critical distance, or his failure to think.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/aug/29/hannah-arendt-adolf-eichmann-banality-of-evil

I think this is very applicable in dysfunctional families. As we grew up in our roles, did our families promote and accept ill treatment, did we learn to expect it? Were we victimized, and then became victims of our own history laden insecurities as to what our role was in the world?
Did mistreatment become routine, ordinary?
Did we essentially, in some way or another, buy into the role, ourselves?
Dysfunctional families......
One can argue, also, what is a functional family?
Everyone can point to some disturbing incidences in their FOO, I am sure.

Some folks, are farther along their journey in examining, remembering and questioning their lives with their FOO.

Some have arrived at the conclusion that looking back, changes nothing.

This is true, it does not change the events that happened.
I think the reflection can make a remarkable difference within ourselves.

Recalling certain events for me, from my adult inner child viewpoint, has made a difference in my outlook on how to be in the present, how to move forward.

What I find changing for me, is the way I am looking at my life, growing up. I understand why I acted out in my teens. Why I made some very bad choices. Why I have had, and have a hard time - completing certain tasks, being with people at times, reading intent, or misreading it.

Looking back, I find helpful, to move into a place of better understanding of myself. Stop being overly critical, stop negative self talk and quell fears of vulnerability. It is not so much about blaming others in my FOO, I want to stop blaming myself. I want to stop falling into the old patterns and responses that were ingrained into me.
It was wrong.
I was mistreated, and misjudged.
I want to think on that.
I need to think on it, because it has affected the way I think and feel about myself.

It will also be helpful for me, when I go back home again, to help my Mom. I will be faced with those old dynamics, and I shall have to be brave. One thing I have found, where sis is concerned, that if I "dare" to move away from the role she thinks I am supposed to be in, then there will be trouble.
Old patterns are hard to break. She will be expecting the old me.
I am not as malleable, as I used to be. I think.....I hope.
This will not bode well with my sister.
What I have found in the most recent exchange with her, is that I am not supposed to have my own opinions, or exhibit real feelings.
Huh. I am not supposed to be me.
Still.

My Dad always said "It is what it is." True.
I find that this whole trip with my two d cs, the craziness of it all, the final wake up slap of it, detachment, reached deep down into my psyche, and dredged up a lot of unfinished business with my past.
Raised a lot of questions, it did.
"It is what it is."
But, when you can't even trust the stuff that pops up in your brain as a memory, nightmare, or am I just a too sensitive big ole cry baby......
then "it is what it is"
kinda of turns to "what the was it?"
Which leads to trying to find out.
Which leads to a weird swirly whirly all over again

Which leads to this

and this

and this

this

this


some of this


Well, you get the drift.

I have no witnesses. I cannot speak of this to my FOO.
I can only trust what I remember.
I am learning it is okay to trust that.
Reading along here in FOO, and the discussions I have participated in, have helped tremendously, and I thank you all for your patience, kindness, and time.

But you know what guys? I am not angry right now, I am puzzled. I don't know what the win is, in trying to control someone, hurt them, deny it.
I come up empty on that one.
Shunning, stalking?
Mistreatment of ones children.

The banality of evil.

It is everywhere.
Every day.

That is the loss.
Denial of someone's rights to just be.
The right to live at peace, with ones surroundings, relationships, with ones concept of self, ones beliefs.

The win, in knowing, thinking, understanding, is one is able to determine the good, (or the right) use the bad (or the wrong) as a lesson, and try like hell to make things better.
Try to move away from the old patterns, and discover our real potential and purpose.

Forgiveness?

I think forgiveness starts within ourselves, stripping away whatever notions were beat into that child, that were false.
Forgiving ourselves for whatever our reactions were, or are, for that matter, to how we were treated.

Forgiveness.

Seeing the past for what it was, learning the truth of it.
Living in the present with peace of mind.
Finally finding acceptance of who we are,
realizing that we have truly been brave,
all along.

Thank you for the discussion.

If I have offended anyone with my comments, or views,
please forgive me.

leafy

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I was always strong enough to be with my mother.

This is true, Copa. But we are not supposed to have to be strong enough to be with our mothers.

***

The Danes were able to stand because they knew who they were; they learned who they were when soldiers in jackboots assured them they were not who they believed themselves to be. Like us, the Danes understood the required compromise would destroy them as surely as the soldiers at their doors.

No win, no lose, no draw.

The Danes stood up because there was nothing else to do.

And some, out of all those who would be lost, were saved.

Burying the story, the uniformed soldiers went to the next country. This time, the compromise was effected, and everyone lost.

The banality of evil.

***

It is self-defeating to berate ourselves for our situations relative to our mothers, Copa and everyone. Who the Nazis were, what they wanted, how they justified it ~ none of that had anything to do with the Danes.

Until it did.

We were raised by those to whom we were the Jews. Or, the Danes.

How frustrating, for them.

No wonder we are shunned.

I see it all so differently now.

And though I am thinking about your take on anger IC, I am still angry. It seems so stupidly wrong a victimization, for a gain of so little value.

It's all very sad except that I am like, spitting angry about it, about the ugliness and the stupid loss of it.

Like in the Carole King song, when he reaches for something golden, but his hands come back empty.

Which doesn't mean the frog should not have tried. It means he needed to take himself, and his quest, seriously.

***

We are fortunate to have survived our childhoods without permanent physical or emotional damage. The damage is not permanent unless we accede to its validity. The instant we see through it, it has no power over us.

Drop it.
Leave it.
Let it go.

Not let it be, Leafy.

Drop it.

Leave it.

Let it go. It cannot be changed.

***

Freedom is right there, at our fingertips, in our decision to see the abuser for what he or she is.

It is harder than you would think.

Deception.

Who would the Danes have become had the Nazis had the power and will to isolate the Danes, to belittle and ridicule and victimize ~ had they had the power (which they did) or the time (which they did not) to shun, to enforce the Nazi mandate.

To bring even the Danes to their knees.

Our FOO have both the power (until we see through them), and the time, to shun. I have been shunned twice that I am aware of. (There could be more times that I am not aware of. Think about that, you guys. Times the primary abuser changed his or her mind.) Serenity's sister would not leave Serenity alone. Once Serenity became healthy enough not to play into it, the outraged sister posted here. The point I am making is that shunning is not the shaming rejection it seems, but a tool.

That we are shunned means we refused them.

***

The role and the value and the purpose and validity of anger. What is it that I will come to understand the value of anger to be. There is a difference between anger and rage. I think they are not the same emotion, at all.

Where does resentment fit in.

The banality of evil.

I think the Danes did not feel anger. Anger is explosive, is strengthening.

I think the Danes simply stood where they stood.

There was nothing else to be done.

The only difference between these kinds of decisions and those made by our family members is the scope. Moral decisions are moral decision.

Yes.

A power-over dynamic consciously nurtured and intentionally maintained.

Not an accident, at all.

The banality of evil can only be understood in comparison to the wonder of what might have been. Still, in imagining what might have been, we can begin to create it. In understanding what the emotional currents would have been in healthy environments, we can heal ourselves, now.

As we are doing.

***

For the victim (which on a broader plane, a worldwide one, will be most of humanity), is fear the driver, or is it uncertainty. Or just what is it that enables compromise in one and forbids compromise in another. Fear is the place we first compromise our own value. The Danes stood up; proclaimed that, whether they were afraid of the soldiers or not (and of course they were), they were a people who understood that to compromise their values would destroy them as surely as whatever the soldiers could do to them.

And so, not only the Jews, but the Danes themselves, were saved.

We were brought up believing we had no intrinsic value and so, had no right to claim a set of values to compromise.

The banality of evil.

The intentional banality of evil.

Without intention, it just is what it is. And not evil.

That is the difference.

***

The thing is, evil feeds on itself. With the first threat, it changes levels; escalates. Lest those threatened lose the fear motivating compromise, the grandiosity addict, trapped as surely as his victim, must take it to the next level.

An eye-rolling, a shaming; an imprisonment, or a shunning; a beheading.

A matter of degree; the victim, interchangeable. The horrific nature of the action taken given more value than the thing destroyed.

That matters.

That concept matters.

That is how we grew up, some of us in circumstances more vicious than others. That is why the abuser claims not to remember, maybe. The victim does not matter. Literally, interchangeable things to be hurt or destroyed to solidify the abusers power base.

The dynamic will have been the same one: to magnify and shore up and celebrate the identity of the primary abuser who may not even realize what he or she is doing or why. This is a human thing that happens and has been happening, forever. It is no different than someone declaring himself of noble blood and collecting henchmen to elevate both himself and his henchmen over the slave classes the abuser also (conveniently) invents and enslaves.

We compromise, to live.

Seeing the chains, seeing the Scarlet letter or the yellow star, the rest of us believe either that we are better than the victim, or that the victim may contaminate us by association.

It is rare, for us to stand as Danes.

***

The banality of evil.

The question is how to think about anger.

That is the question. There is a weakness, a permissiveness, in anger. Something we cannot afford.

But still, I am angry.

Cedar

 

[InsaneCdn]

Anger.

My anger does nothing in bringing the perpetrators of evil to justice. My anger at what happened to me, harms ME. It creates a mirror-image of the wrong that was done. And for me, it ends up being as bad or worse.

I HAD to let go of the anger. If there had been anything illegal done, I probably would have spoken up and let justice take it's course. That isn't anger, it's justice. But anger... is just an emotion, a feeling. We say "so-and-so makes me SO angry", but in reality, nobody has the power to make us angry unless we choose to give them that power. I choose to not give FOO the power to produce anger in me. That doesn't change how I need to live, in the here and now, in protecting myself and my own - the need for space, etc. But it DOES change how I live in the here and now, because energy is a limited resource. I can either spend it on anger, or I can spend it on getting healing for myself, or I can invest it in healthy relationships, or any number of other ways to spend that energy. Do I really want to waste MY precious energy being angry at FOO, and perpetuating their impoverishment of my self? When I start getting angry (again), that is the key question that slows me down.

I will spend MY strength and health and energy the way *I* want to spend them. Just as FOO cannot directly control those decisions, I will not allow them to indirectly control those decisions either. Therefore... I let go of anger.

Doesn't mean I trust them, or allow them into my turf very much.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Which is a tough knot to untangle, not only because it happened to me as a child, but also because I was told over and over, and am still told, that I was too sensitive, it wasn't that bad, move on.

Which does not mean that you need to validate your sensitivity today, Leafy. That seems to be where you circle. What if you could come at this from a different perspective? Instead of: I really am so sensitive. I need you to believe me when I say I am sensitive and to not condemn me for being sensitive and I need you to welcome my sensitivity and set me up high because I am sensitive and let me be sensitive.

But "sensitive" is not your question, Leafy.

That is their question.

Whether you are too sensitive or not is their way they confused you and covered the damage they chose to inflict and are attempting, even today, to destroy your Danish.

You did see what you saw, Leafy. You did hear what you heard.

It was wrong, what they did.

What happened to you was wrong.

Sensitivity has nothing to do with it.

Sensitivity is their word.

***

Here is the thing, Leafy. To be human is to be sensitive. I think it is less a matter of degree than a matter of which aspect of self we have been curious enough about to emphasize. For all of us, I think this is true. Leafy, if you did not have to prove that what they told you was the matter with you is an okay way to be...how would the world look, then.

Leafy: What if there is nothing the matter with you. What if there is something very much the matter with...them? That is the true nature of the battle we fight, here on FOO Chronicles: Who is the liar, here. Me, or my beloved; my abusive beloved.

What if you could see New Leaf, from that changed perspective where, for once, you did not have to prove that the lie they told about what mattered about you matters?

It is like my mother telling me not to think.

What does that word mean to you, New Leaf? Sensitive. What does that mean?

That is the name of your prison.

Sensitive.

***

I like the material you found on the banality of evil.

It is insidious; we can only truly see it when we see what might have been, had the cascading chain of evil things not happened.

I agree that we need to go back to heal. We wonder, sometimes, whether there is an easier way than to confront the really awful emotional reality of what happened to us. I think this happens as we do heal, because the very things that seemed to outrageously horrifying in the beginning hold only sadness, only such sorrow that it happened at all, to anyone, and to us.

As we finally do heal, it just all seems to have been so cheap a thing to have hurt a child for.

The banality of evil.

Cedar

 

[Copabanana]

they were a people who understood that to compromise their values would destroy them as surely as whatever the soldiers could do to them.

And so, not only the Jews, but the Danes themselves, were saved.

Yes. This is the essential truth. We define ourselves by our compromises.

That is why the abuser claims not to remember, maybe. The victim does not matter. Literally, interchangeable things to be hurt or destroyed to solidify the abusers power base.

My mother always forgot what was to her disadvantage to remember, by that I mean, the kindness or consideration she extended, without thinking about her own best interest first and foremost.

With my mother it was what you say, Cedar, she really did not think about the other, except in the moment, which was to say to manipulate. By manipulate I mean to be charming. My mother was warm and charming...in the moment. While it was like a warm bath to feel it...it was just that...it could soon grow cold and go down the drain.

What always won out was her self-interest. And like she did at the end with her boyfriend of 20 plus years when he no longer served her, said, "for what?" Ultimately her alliances were unprincipled ones. She did not see life in any other way as a series of moments that were defined by her self-interest at that moment, as she saw it.

With my mother it really was "nothing personal." Except for the incapacity for real loyalty even to herself perhaps essentially to herself, she would have been a great general or CEO.

It is just, as you say, Cedar, these were our mothers, not Donald Trump.

We were brought up believing we had no intrinsic value and so, had no right to claim a set of values to compromise.

The banality of evil.

The intentional banality of evil.

Without intention, it just is what it is. And not evil.

That is the difference.

I believe the sense of no intrinsic value we concluded or inferred from the way we were considered, treated, compromised, or disregarded. I believe our mothers love us and loved us as they were able, limited by the kinds of people they are or were.

That is why M tells me my mother loved me. He does not have the expectation that she be another type of person. She loved me as she could. That is the important thing to accept now. Cedar, especially. Your mother loves you as she can. She cannot love you in any other way than she is able.

But you can love yourself in that way. That is what we are learning here.

the primary abuser who may not even realize what he or she is doing or why. This is a human thing that happens and has been happening, forever. It is no different than someone declaring himself of noble blood

Yes. This is exactly the truth of it. We had mothers who were invested, indeed, obsessed perhaps, with establishing their primacy, and their interests. Always.

I believe, Cedar, your mother and my own were the most similar. Selfishness. Loveliness. Charm and warmth, when it served them. Intense coldness when it did not. Capable of kindness. But essentially Machiavellian. Brilliant. Power-seeking. Supreme self-confidence. In the case of my mother, self-indulgence and drama. With your mother, I do not think so.

My sister emulated this, except with the drama and self-indulgence. Adding cruelty and an intense competitiveness.

These are types of people. My mother over and over again said she should not have been a mother. That she regretted it intensely.

The unkindness to say this to her daughter, she never saw. Because she meant, it was all too much trouble, especially because the daughters are ungrateful. Not conforming to the expectation of unconditional love and devotion for the mother.

My mother felt the love normal mothers bestow on their children...was due her.

I forgive her. She could not do better, the person who she was. Perhaps this is what Insane is getting at. They could not do better, the people who they are or were.

Perhaps that is why the nation of people who are the real Germany is constantly soul searching and always tries to do the most moral thing now. They are trying to root out the essential character flaw that enabled them to perpetrate world war and genocide. By their consciousness of all potential options to respond, not what comes naturally in the "German National Character."

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

"In a sense, by calling a crime against humanity "banal", she was trying to point to the way in which the crime had become for the criminals accepted, routinized, and implemented without moral revulsion and political indignation and resistance." One of the most interesting comments was that Arendt (on Eichmanns heinous nazi war crimes) "faults him for his obedience, his lack of critical distance, or his failure to think.

This is the essence of the argument, I think.

Eichmann took shelter in the fact that he was doing his job, obeying orders. He was a functionary.

COPA

 

[BusynMember]

I believe this also. Face the truth of our own lives. It is not an easy thing to do, and write about. Especially, if one has been forbidden, it goes against the unwritten family law of secrecy. Loyalty.

Oh, Leafie. This part is so true.
In my case, I believed it was all my fault as a child. I MADE my mother act like Joan Crawford. I CAUSED every ill in my home because I was differently wired and had a tantrum if I was disrespected or yelled at. It was my fault for being so "bad" that I ruined my family, even though it started it infancy and my mother did nothing about it, although she insisted on being the one tyrant who ruled the house.

Once I finally was shown who was truly at blame, the first time I realized it, I cried in therapy.

In my FOO you never criticized Mom, who was the main person screwing u her kids. We said, "Oh, that's just Mom." "You know how Mom is." "That's the way she is. No big deal." This is after she had a major tantrum a nd woke me up at 3am about something she was obviously still angry about that happened three weeks before...also waking Sis who shared my room. It couldn't wait until morning either. She had to wake us and yell THEN. "But it's just her way." This is but one example of her instability.

I think I am the only one who "gets it." All three of us are damaged, and not lightly, because of her parenting. Even Golden Child is damaged badly. But they love her too much to blame her so they blame me.

All dysfunctional families have a code of honor that you don't tell about your sick family.
Somehow I just didn't want to have to explain. I did tell my therapists. That was my relief.

Leafie, you are so right in this comment.

 

[New Leaf]

Thank you Cedar, I am at work, so cannot respond at length. You are right, about circling on my sensitivity.
I wanted to let you know I am reading a book on being highly sensitive which was first researched in the 90's, by Elaine Aaron, Ph.D. , the author. It is helping me to understand this personality trait, it also has accounts from others who were treated much the same as I was in their FOO, because it was looked at as a problem.

My writing of it,
now,
I do not see it that way,
it is part of who I am.
I am sensitive.
Roar!!!

But, unfortunately, that trait was looked at in my childhood as a fault, not an attribute. It was something to be tormented out of me. I was bullied by my own, and it was allowed. It was my training. Then I was chided into smiling.
I felt tortured, misunderstood and unshielded, naked. As I was scolded for reacting to bullying, my siblings would giggle and make fun of me, in triumph.
My parents would tell me.......
"Just smile, I know you can smile."
How sadistic is that?
So, I would force a red eyed tearing, lower lip trembling smile, to suit them, even though I felt like bloody hell, then my sibs would give me the gas all over again.

It was twisted.

F'ing FOO boot camp.

I am learning to realize the ugly truth of how I was treated, as well as that this intrinsic part of my personality is what allows me to see the world differently, to draw, paint, sculpt, it is the heart of my creativity.

When I write of my sensitivity now, I am acknowledging and accepting it.

Something I was misjudged and mistreated for, my entire life.

I am blessed with it, truly.

And yes, it has also been my prison. Rather than being celebrated and encouraged by my own FOO, for who I was- all of me, I was shamed into thinking there was something wrong with how I felt.

So what, if I cried at beautiful music, saw butterflies and called them fairy insects, made up my own songs and sang them loudly, talked to myself, wrote imaginative stories.

I was the butt of many cruelties, and when I tried to defend myself, it only got worse. Any attempt to help myself, was laughed at. I supposedly over exaggerated everything, it was hell.

There was no one to turn to.

I am surprised, as I look back, that I survived it.
I very nearly didn't.

It becomes even more of a bewildering quandary, when comments are made by my FOO, about my artwork, writing, sculpting. " Such a waste, you are so talented, why have you not done anything with your gift?"

They may think they are complimenting and encouraging me, but it is like salt in the wound.

Wait, can I put my mom in the motorcycle pouch please?



Okay there she goes.....

I can hit anger at this one because realistically,
my reply could be
"Because you ignorant, f****** tried to annihilate the very root of my creativity from my soul."

Ahem.

It is the ugly truth.

Dammit.
@$$#o13$...
....

WTF
"Don't be yourself."
"Be yourself."
It cannot be both ways........

To my FOO
Not ps I love you
It's
F you, I Iove you.
@$$#013$
Sorry
Touched a nerve


Thanks Cedar
Back to work
leafy

 

[New Leaf]

Oh, Leafie. This part is so true.
In my case, I believed it was all my fault as a child. I MADE my mother act like Joan Crawford. I CAUSED every ill in my home because I was differently wired and had a tantrum if I was disrespected or yelled at. It was my fault for being so "bad" that I ruined my family, even though it started it infancy and my mother did nothing about it, although she insisted on being the one tyrant who ruled the house.

Awww SWOT, this is tough to read. It is hard enough growing up, but to think one is the catalyst for dysfunction......then not even be able to talk about it. It is all wrong. In so many ways.
I am glad that you came out of this, and made a wonderful life for yourself and your family of choice.

All dysfunctional families have a code of honor that you don't tell about your sick family.
Somehow I just didn't want to have to explain. I did tell my therapists. That was my relief.

It is a code of honor, it doesn't even have to be spoken. I think it is intrinsic to most families, but maybe more so with dysfunctional ones. There was tremendous pressure to be the perfect all American family. The more dysfunction, the stronger the code, that's what I think. I also think that is why there is shunning, and estrangement. When folks start to talk about the issues, things backfire.
My FOO thinks that by my talking about it, or emoting over my past, that I have not grown from it, that I dwell on it. It is not something I am thinking about every single day. But, it has affected my life, and my self image. So, for my own health, I need to sift through it. They do not want me to.
That is them. Too bad. It happened to me.
I do not need verification from them, anymore, opened the book a couple times and got slammed. So I won't bring it up with them. It is a discussion going nowhere.
This does not mean that my life is a ruin, because of my past. There is a bit of confusion there, as I try to sort things out. But, I will be okay. I am hoping that I will be able to view myself in a different light. I think I will.

Thank you Serenity.
Thank you for all of your hard work, here. Thank you everyone.
It has opened the door for the rest of us, who would like to venture down memory lane, viewing things from their adult inner child perspective.

(((HUGS)))
leafy

 

[New Leaf]

Hello all, I would like to apologize for my potty mouth rant.






I may have to go into time out........



good night
leafy

 

[InsaneCdn]

@New Leaf
We understand ranting... and we don't always have all filters working when in a rant. We know the context... and "heard" the frustration. It's OK. You are safe here.

 

[New Leaf]

Thank you Insane, that is very kind of you.
Safe, such a nice place to be.
sigh
leafy

 

[BusynMember]

I also think that is why there is shunning, and estrangement. When folks start to talk about the issues, things backfire.

Absolutely.

The scapegoat in the family is usually the one who is most sensitive, possibly different, and definitely most aware, from early on, that the family is not "right" and is the one who will talk about it. I have been talking about it, mostly in therapy, most of my young adult life, but it took until middle age (40s) for me to get that my only out is to be OUT. At THAT time, I was still being tolerated by siblings. And I stuck with them, especially sister, although her cruelty and attempts at control knew no boundaries. In spite of knowing the only way out was OUT, I kept giving her extra chances with no remorse from her for her cruel shuns. There is something brutally wrong with somebody calls the police over e-mails. She would not have called the police on her abusive boyfriend, her married boyfriend, or anyone else. It was personal. "I am the most beloved sister. I can also shut you up."

Well, she is not the most beloved sister. Maybe in our twisted FOO she was as she played along with them. But in real life, she has squandered others who wanted to love her and does not gravitate toward loving people. She does seem to have nice kids. I don't know them or their feelings about her. But she can't find a loving romantic male and that bothers her.

I feel like I won. We talk about the win and the loss. If I feel like I won, then I feel validated and in my mind, I *did* win and what she thinks doesn't matter. I haven't read anything she has probably written about me for a long time. I have not even peeked to see if she is still writing about me. I don't care.

Yet I'll bet she is still reading here and read here way before she cut me off (and I agreed that the cut off was a good thing for ME). I am in her head. I am always in her head.

Puzzling. Why can't she move on? Well, life is short. It is her problem, not mine.

 

[New Leaf]

vindictive

1. 1a : disposed to seek revenge : vengeful
   b : intended for or involving revenge
2. 2: intended to cause anguish or hurt : spiteful

vin·dic·tive·ly adverb
vin·dic·tive·ness noun
Origin of vindictive
Latin vindicta revenge, vindication, from vindicare

It is her problem, Serenity. I can't imagine how it must be to live with such meanness within the heart.
How sad, to have the need to intentionally hurt, humiliate and stalk ones own kin.

Banality of evil.

It seems, that certain people (and the world has more than it's fair share of like minded/hearted folk) will go to any means possible, to justify the ends.

Your example of kindness and love, your attempts at forgiveness and tolerance bears witness to your goodness and right heart.

You have created a family of choice, that tenderly care for you, and love you.

You have "won" in so many ways.

The loss, for people who walk this earth with hatred, and a need for vengeance, is that there are those, who will stand up and say by their deeds
"NO MORE."

Then what are the vengeful left with?

The loss, the poison of their hatred and ugly acts, witnessed by the universe.
There is no justification for this. It will fester on, and on.
A cancer, building up inside, suffocating.

Banality of evil.

You have every reason in the world, to walk away with your head held high, knowing that you tried the best you could despite great injury to your soul, to have a relationship with your sister.

Too bad.

That is a great loss for her, I think.

Banality of evil.

There is no gain.

You have won, a thousand times over.

To infinity and beyond.

Good for you Serenity.

Peace. That is the win for you.

Peace and love.
What a sweet nectar.

(((HUGS)))
leafy