Therapist for DC2

[Copabanana]

When th. said was no longer taking our insurance, I told kids they could not use her anymore . A few months after that, th. Texted and said she was still on insurance, but husband and I had decided we did not want to use her anymore.

I am wondering here if therapist lied.

She would much prefer if your daughter was a self-pay, paying out of pocket. From insurance, she only gets a negotiated rate. And she has to deal with a lot of paperwork, and many therapists don't even do their own billing because of the complexity of it. If she represents herself as no longer taking your insurance, she forces you into a situation of having to pay out of pocket.

She took a calculated risk. And it backfired. Why change course so quickly, otherwise?

This woman is bad, bad news. But the reality of the situation she is not the main problem. Your daughter is the main problem. The therapist is only a symptom.

 

[WiseChoices]

What is that commercial? I'm not a biochemist. I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express. This is so ridiculous.
This is a horrible drug. When my son was about 5 he had what they thought was a seizure and they gave him Ativan. He had to be hospitalized because he began to hallucinate.

I agree with Susie. I would not EVER drive her to the appointments. Why get into this power struggle with her? This would be opening yourself up to constant conflict. It would be handing her over a powerbase on a silver platter. I would all of a sudden develop all kinds of interests, absorbing and important, that preclude you from being available. EVER. I would not even get into a conversation with her about it. Not one. No need to justify yourself. You have done so much for her. The driving her to college is huge.

You're right. Billing. Medication. Transportation. All of it. Hand it over to her. Let her be a party of one, with this therapist. Let her get drunk on all of it. The two of them. Think of this as an addiction. Let her find her own bottom. ​

Meanwhile you keep really, really tight boundaries at home. Just as you describe. Like with this drug, this Ativan. And keep your own focus upon anything but her. She sounds like she is drunk with power. Almost all of it expressed indirectly. This is all very like my son.

Their task is for them to find their power within themselves as opposed to turning themselves into broken victims, holding everybody responsible except themselves. It's very hard to be part of this kind of a system. For me.

I want to comment on one more thing. It's about how she has treated your husband. Your daughter seems to be acting like a tyrant. If she can't find respect for him why is she even in your home, a home, I presume he helps provide?

I don't understand this. How are you powerless over what goes on in your home? You may be temporarily out of the country, but you are going home. I think this girl needs to be reined in. She is calling the shots. It's one thing to call the shots over her own life. It's another to call the shots in her family and home. Where as I can tell, she contributes not one thing.

I think you will be having a lot of important decisions to make. She should be eligible for SSI/SDI, with the issues she has. She could then get Section 8 housing. Some of her symptoms she seems to be choosing. It seems like she is choosing to toy with the idea of recovering, by utilizing mental health as a means to get drugs, power, attention, and sympathy. And a way to not take responsibility. And deflect culpability to others. As long as you support her, you are supporting this, I feel. This is the elephant in the living room. I recognize I may be overstepping here, perhaps projecting my own experience onto yours, but I would be remiss to not say what I feel.

It is very similar to my own situation with my son.

Your daughter is much younger than my son who is 31. But I am looking back and seeing I did the right thing telling him to leave at 23, if he would not get help to change, and to take responsibility for dealing with his problems. There was the similarity with your daughter because he had had a brain injury and the illness I described above. These guys have to be forced to accept the consequences of their choices. I am seeing that clearly, now. Otherwise it's like we're giving them flotation devices to float above all of their crappy, polluted craziness, which comes not from intrinsic issues, but from their nutty decisions. They pollute the waters in which they live, while they float above because we are their life raft. To change and to mature they have to recognize what their choices are creating FOR THEM. For this to happen, they have to live the consequences. As it is, it seems that your family is experiencing the consequences of her poor choices, and only minimally, is she.

I am thinking of those bottles of bubble solution that we used to have as kids, with the metal rings to blow through. Do those things still exist? Your daughter is blowing bubbles. Blowing them and blowing them. Without a thought. Whether they're toxic to her or others, she cares not a bit.

Somehow or some way she has to become aware that she's creating damage. The focus has to change from caring about her, to caring about you, your husband and the household as a whole. If your daughter keeps blowing negative bubbles, that affect not only her, but all of you, that needs to be faced.

I make the mistake of constantly repeating this to my son: You keep blowing bubbles, without caring. The bubbles are killing us. And I keep repeating it, and repeating it. Why?
If the bubbles are toxic and they won't stop, they need to leave or change. They are adults.

Right now your daughter and my son are creating all kinds of toxic bubbles and your family and my family are having to live in the toxicity that they create, while they float above it, because we by our choices are holding them up. What's wrong with this picture?
​

Thank you, Copa, for all these thoughts. What I meant by being powerless over all of it was that my husband is chosing not to engage in conflict with her . There is nothing I can do about that .I suggested he have her show him the medication bottles that HE PAID FOR and he won't do it. And I am powerless over her contacting and setting up appointments with this therapist.

I will have to be the bad guy and ask to see all 4 medication bottles that my husband paid for when I get home. I am getting used to being the bad guy. I would be that no matter what I did, so it doesn't matter to me anymore.

I think refusing to give her rides to therapist will create conflict for sure .I like the idea of being busy and not being home much. But I can't see how I would say no to ride without explanation. It doesn't go with what I worked out yesterday to stay neutral and indifferent to the whole thing . I am thinking of getting a full time job and thus being unavailable most of the time .

 

[Copabanana]

But I can't see how I would say no to ride without explanation. It doesn't go with what I worked out yesterday to stay neutral and indifferent to the whole thing . I am thinking of getting a full time job and thus being unavailable most of the time .

For better or worse I am very direct with my son, and most, but not all people. I would say to my own son directly: For reasons you are aware of, while I support your going to a therapist, and choosing your own therapist, I have serious concerns about this therapist, for the family and for you. Therefore, I choose to not be involved in payment, transportation, etc.

I don't believe you owe your daughter explanations about your decisions or your conduct. Rather, you are the parent here. And it is your home. And your support. Not vis versa.

I agree. Who cares if you are the bad guy? If she responds to your strength, to boundaries, to limits by denunciations, what does it have to do with you? And if she chooses to create conflict, that is on her. She not you will have to deal with the consequences. Ultimately.

I think the idea of a full time job makes sense, for me too. I am preparing to return to work. Which was always the center of my life. I want to return to my center. But I would not hesitate to tell your daughter your truth. I think she may be empowered (negatively) by your holding back.

 

[WiseChoices]

I am wondering here if therapist lied.

She would much prefer if your daughter was a self-pay, paying out of pocket. From insurance, she only gets a negotiated rate. And she has to deal with a lot of paperwork, and many therapists don't even do their own billing because of the complexity of it. If she represents herself as no longer taking your insurance, she forces you into a situation of having to pay out of pocket.

She took a calculated risk. And it backfired. Why change course so quickly, otherwise?

This woman is bad, bad news. But the reality of the situation she is not the main problem. Your daughter is the main problem. The therapist is only a symptom.

Copa, you are right! OMG! I did not see this before .She did always try to discourage us from using insurance. Always said that if we wanted to get certain jobs, there would be a record of mental health counseling and we wouldn't be able to get hired .this never made sense to me . I paid self pay for years to her. And she got $100 each session from me . The insurance pays $60. She tried several times to get us not to use insurance and when I said we could not see her then, she relented and said she would allow me to Bill insurance on her behalf. But then over the summer, she sent me huge bills because she has not reconciled her accounts correctly, and I spent months reconciling and proving insurance had paid her. She also had dates I had not logged at all. It's all a mess.

Before I left her office, she gave me a huge verbal list of what she had diagnosed my daughter with. One I remember was histrionic personality disorder. I remember thinking how could daughter have so many diagnosises and therapist had never mentioned any of them? Should I mention this to daughter? I guess not. Just let it play out .

My daughter has documented bipolar as well from when she insisted with therapist and the psychiatric she recommended that she had it .I was there when she spoke to them and was flabbergasted how easy it was for daughter to convince them. I pleaded my case to therapist about this in my single session proving how the bipolar did not fit and therapist sided with daughter.

She ran a MJ business out of the back office for a while when MJ had become legalized in our State. She told DC1 that MJ was fine. She herself uses it she told me and that it is way more effective than antidepressants for her. She has told me that she did meth during college and has very strange to me (coming from the 12 step perspective) ideas about addiction recovery. She would get pushy when I disagreed with her.

 

[WiseChoices]

For better or worse I am very direct with my son, and most, but not all people. I would say to my own son directly: For reasons you are aware of, while I support your going to a therapist, and choosing your own therapist, I have serious concerns about this therapist, for the family and for you. Therefore, I choose to not be involved in payment, transportation, etc.

I don't believe you owe your daughter explanations about your decisions or your conduct. Rather, you are the parent here. And it is your home. And your support. Not vis versa.

I agree. Who cares if you are the bad guy? If she responds to your strength, to boundaries, to limits by denunciations, what does it have to do with you? And if she chooses to create conflict, that is on her. She not you will have to deal with the consequences. Ultimately.

I think the idea of a full time job makes sense, for me too. I am preparing to return to work. Which was always the center of my life. I want to return to my center. But I would not hesitate to tell your daughter your truth. I think she may be empowered (negatively) by your holding back.

That is contrary to what we talked about last night. The letting it be, the being indifferent, the not saying anything. I am confused now. And more unsure on what to do.

 

[Copabanana]

All of this is horrible. And unethical. And wrong. So, so wrong.

She did always try to discourage us from using insurance. Always said that if we wanted to get certain jobs, there would be a record of mental health counseling and we wouldn't be able to get hired .

This is terrible and terribly unethical:

She ran a MJ business out of the back office

And this is so, so inappropriate. And wrong. And horrible! I can't believe this:

She has told me that she did meth during college

I don't have a lot of time. I will get back to you later.

 

[Copabanana]

The letting it be, the being indifferent, the not saying anything. I am confused now. And more unsure on what to do.

I reread the original posts, I think they were from September. I agree. All of this seems contradictory.

Let me explain a bit.

I don't think it's intruding to have a voice. I don't think it's controlling or manipulative to have boundaries. To say to your daughter, I don't feel comfortable being involved with this therapist, is your right to say and to follow through in every way.

Just as it's wrong for our children to manipulate us, it's wrong to manipulate our kids. By manipulating I mean sneaky and indirect. It means to do this, to influence that. Hidden. To go to work to avoid conflict with your daughter, and to be unavailable to give rides, in order that you do not have to confront her directly empowers your daughter to continue doing exactly what she does, which is to split and triangulate.

I think you can say what you feel and think and bow out of the whole thing. I think that's clear cut and in my way of thinking not wrong. Some people would say that it would be manipulative to NOT drive her. But I think otherwise. I think you would be going against your very clear sense that something is very, very wrong with this woman, if you assisted your daughter to get to those appointments.

Letting your daughter do what she wants to do, and getting out of the way, not intruding in her decision making, does not mean you surrender to the situation. It is entirely consistent with the idea you talk about, I'm powerless.

When you spoke up on RN"s thread, you told your truth. You don't know RN. You have no role in or authority in her family. To decide anything. Yet you believed your integrity demanded you speak up according to what you know deep in your bones, via your experience and belief system. Why would you abdicate this voice in your own family? I don't see why.

 

[Copabanana]

One thing I have had to let go with my son, reluctantly, is the idea that anything I do will motivate him to do the right thing or to improve his life. Still, I find ideas sneaking in about how maybe if I do that, he will do this. This is insidious and wrong. I need to act from my core. My needs. My hopes. My beliefs. My voice. As best I know. To be true to myself.

I believe letting daughter do as she wishes with the therapist, and every other thing as long as she is not under your roof, is the best thing for her, because this way she'll experience the consequences of her choices. But I don't believe that we can or should seek to control our children this way. I think my only guiding principle must be my own integrity. If I stay rooted in this, it will be the right thing. Whether or not it provokes a change or positive outcome in my child.

I locate myself in me, as best I can. I fail often, but if I stay true to this intention, I believe I can stay true to myself, and to him too.

This is 100 percent different than when I came here. When I thought only what would bring about change in him, for him. I was completely alienated from me.

 

[WiseChoices]

I reread the original posts, I think they were from September. I agree. All of this seems contradictory.

Let me explain a bit.

I don't think it's intruding to have a voice. I don't think it's controlling or manipulative to have boundaries. To say to your daughter, I don't feel comfortable being involved with this therapist, is your right to say and to follow through in every way.

Just as it's wrong for our children to manipulate us, it's wrong to manipulate our kids. By manipulating I mean sneaky and indirect. It means to do this, to influence that. Hidden. To go to work to avoid conflict with your daughter, and to be unavailable to give rides, in order that you do not have to confront her directly empowers your daughter to continue doing exactly what she does, which is to split and triangulate.

I think you can say what you feel and think and bow out of the whole thing. I think that's clear cut and in my way of thinking not wrong. Some people would say that it would be manipulative to NOT drive her. But I think otherwise. I think you would be going against your very clear sense that something is very, very wrong with this woman, if you assisted your daughter to get to those appointments.

Letting your daughter do what she wants to do, and getting out of the way, not intruding in her decision making, does not mean you surrender to the situation. It is entirely consistent with the idea you talk about, I'm powerless.

When you spoke up on RN"s thread, you told your truth. You don't know RN. You have no role in or authority in her family. To decide anything. Yet you believed your integrity demanded you speak up according to what you know deep in your bones, via your experience and belief system. Why would you abdicate this voice in your own family? I don't see why.

That makes a lot of sense. I understand what you are explaining to me. I think the answer to your question is that I feel fearful of conflict, fearful to use my own voice, and unsure whether I see things clearly enough. This is exactly what I am -slowly- learning in Al-anon. Thank you, Copa.

 

[WiseChoices]

One thing I have had to let go with my son, reluctantly, is the idea that anything I do will motivate him to do the right thing or to improve his life. Still, I find ideas sneaking in about how maybe if I do that, he will do this. This is insidious and wrong. I need to act from my core. My needs. My hopes. My beliefs. My voice. As best I know. To be true to myself.

I believe letting daughter do as she wishes with the therapist, and every other thing as long as she is not under your roof, is the best thing for her, because this way she'll experience the consequences of her choices. But I don't believe that we can or should seek to control our children this way. I think my only guiding principle must be my own integrity. If I stay rooted in this, it will be the right thing. Whether or not it provokes a change or positive outcome in my child.

I locate myself in me, as best I can. I fail often, but if I stay true to this intention, I believe I can stay true to myself, and to him too.

This is 100 percent different than when I came here. When I thought only what would bring about change in him, for him. I was completely alienated from me.

Yes! This rings very, very true! I am always so terribly afraid of being controlling that I instead allow anything and everything. Since control is my character defect and I wish to be free of it, I have silenced my own voice in some cases. This is wrong. I am entitled to my own opinion. I am allowed to voice this opinion. My daughter will say I am unsupportive. She will say I am controlling. And I mustn't care.

I am to the point that I dread seeing a message from her. This let's me know I am giving her control over my emotions. Before I left for my trip, when I hugged her good-bye, I said I love you and she did not say it back .has not said it in messages the way she used to even when I say it. I am so insecure and hurt and afraid around her all the time.

You are right: Al-Anon teaches me to use my voice when it is important to do so. I cannot support an unethical therapist . This therapist is part of the reason why I am insecure as a Mother even though I do not wish to assign blame. I am responsible for myself. But in every case, she sided with the kids. I was always "too hard" , too this, to that. I got to where I ran every decision by this woman. And where my kids would summon me to see the therapist to discuss decisions I was making for them.

I am a Ball of fear and anxiety .I need to come out of the corner and access the power that flows inside of me. I can't be scared of my daughter , her wrath, her disapproval of me, her withdrawel of affection (I am not allowed to hug her anymore and when I forget and reach out to her because she is crying or something, she recoils), her withdrawal of love . The truth is all of those things have already happened.

What I have left is me. My integrity. And I need to act from that place of integrity and strength. I hide how I feel a lot around her still - for fear of judgement. If I were my own sponsee, I would say connect to your power that is God-given and adjust your crown .Don't be afraid of the feelings of other people. They are not your business.

Just like I spoke up about not having benzos in my home, I need to speak up about not supporting this particular therapist.

 

[Copabanana]

I feel fearful of conflict, fearful to use my own voice, and unsure whether I see things clearly enough.

Really, I understand this, first hand. I had an advantage in that I had work where I had to have voice, an independent power base, personal authority, because I operated alone. There was nobody there to ask. And nobody I trusted to seek counsel. Everything had to come from me. But not from knowledge. I did not have any knowledge that served to guide me. So, I found a way to listen to my body, which I later figured out had something to do with G-d, and from that I could make sure, correct decisions, which I trusted 100 percent and would fight for them. I would have no doubt at all. This always served me. I was not opinionated. I was humble. i was flexible. I was open. I was true to myself and to the situation and others. This was not ego or power driven. But it was very powerful.

Yet. In my own life I was clueless, as to what I thought, what I needed, what I believed. It was only while cornered at work, where I had no choice but to depend upon my inner resources, that I could draw upon these resources. In my own life when I was not goal-driven I was flying blind.

Like you I feel a great deal of confusion. But I am coming to the sense that this is a necessary phase. In order to change in powerful ways we have to give up "knowing" anything. Because all of the knowing is based upon the past. So much of it does not serve. Not knowing works so much better, I think,.

 

[Copabanana]

.I need to come out of the corner and access the power that flows inside of me.

Yes. Now your cooking with gas!

 

[WiseChoices]

I will finally get to fly home tomorrow after my flight on Thursday was cancelled. I am backsliding tonight wondering how I will possibly tell my daughter that I won't give her a ride to therapist. It seems so unsupportive tonight. I think I can say o won't do the billing , but the ride seems too much. Not sure why I feel this way exactly.

 

[Copabanana]

wondering how I will possibly tell my daughter that I won't give her a ride to therapist.

I can understand how you feel this way.

These are your options, as I see them: One, no rides; two, commit to driving her every week unless or until you get a full-time job; three, decide to forego any other commitment so that you can continue to drive her as long as she desires; four, negotiate every single ride.

It's a question of your priorities. What is, to you, the most important thing? Is it to support her in the way that she decides? Is it to minimize conflict? Is it to support her to take responsibility to meet her own needs? Is it to give yourself permission to occupy the center of your life? Or some other thing.

To me until you decide what your principal goal is, you won't know what you need to do. And I think it's important for me to try to ferret out what would be aspirational, and what is regressive. And then there is the basic and unwavering love I have for my child. My need for him. My need that he be safe and prosper. This surely is not regressive. But feelings like fear of abandonment in my old age, guilt, etc., may be so, for me.

Of course you can also commit to driving her a limited period, say one month. That would give you time to think through what your needs are. It would also give her a transitional period to make a plan, to take responsibility to meet her own needs.

I will say what I think, though you don't ask. I think your daughter is being abusive to you. I would hate to see you out of guilt and an excessive sense of responsibility, to make an open-ended commitment to her. First there is the consideration of your growth and well-being. You matter here too. And it matters to her that you value yourself. Second, there is her growth and well-being. There is nowhere in life where the needs and well-being and happiness of one person can or should trump the well-being of others, or of the family as a whole. How could any system thrive or even survive, should this be the operating system, most of all a family? Should my child ride around on a float waving at the crowds, throwing garlands while I carry him on my back down below? What would I be teaching him about himself, about his life and potential, about my own value, and life itself?

Wise. I hope you stand up in your life, for your life, all around. I believe that everybody in your family could have the potential to thrive, were you to give yourself this.

 

[WiseChoices]

Wow, Copa. Thank you so much for your honesty and candidness. I really, really appreciate that. You have given me a lot to think about. The image of her waving at the crowds throwing garlands as I carry her on my back , toiling and working so hard for me to love her - that was powerful.

What is my need here? I can't work with a therapist who is unethical, and I have determined that this woman is. I have spiritual principles in my life .I need to follow them. They are my guideposts. After the huge bills I received from the therapist over the summer, I swore I would not deal with her again, and in fact wanted to request a letter that everything had been paid in full. That is what I need to serve: my own integrity. My husband does not want this therapist to make another dime off us and if daughter uses our insurance, we are on effect paying for it.

I need to say:" You know I have issues with this therapist. If you want to see her, you need to be aware that I will not deal with billing and that I won't be giving you rides there. " Because I really don't want to.

I also want what is best for daughter. She has dragged her feet finding a new therapist out of fear. She saw one (in my opinion) good one and this woman called daughter on her issues, said she had daddy issues and DC2 said she would never go back to her. My son sees this therapist and has been more willing to adult as a result. Returning to this old therapist is not serving daughter. She is regressing.

But her needs are secondary to mine. I am unable to compromise my integrity.

I got a Snapchat from DC2 this morning wishing me a good flight home. Saying she misses me and my hugs (???) and that my hugs are grounding to her and that she even misses my smell. Mhm......

 

[WiseChoices]

I meant "toiling so hard for her to love me"

 

[BusynMember1]

If this therapist doesn't want you to use insurance for the bogus reason of "you won't get a job" I would personally drop her like a hot potato. I would refuse to pay or drive. Period. And I am open minded, but that is scary.

Amy has a very high level job that offers five free therapy sessions and encourages the employees to go for help if needed. She has! It is a stressful job and respected and never has therapy been seen as bad. This "the stigma of therapy" is so old school that it gives me the chills. Maybe she is not reporting her income. Does she make you pay cash!

I do not know anything about the therapy Amy had. I assume it was job and divorce related but I feel that a grown woman does not need disclose her private therapy sessions to me. It doesn't occur to me to even ask. BUT....Amy IS a woman. She works, pays all of her own bills and is one hundred percent self reliant. So she gets to make all her own decisions and we respect that.

Your daughter is asking for as much help from you as a young teen would, so in my opinion you get a big say. If you don't feel right paying this lady or driving your daughter to see her then you don't have to. At 23 she should be doing these things on her own. She is not yet self sufficient so it's up to you.

Your daughter still sounds as if she loves you a lot! You do have a nice live bond! Never think she doesn't love you. She does!

God bless you, smart lady!

 

[WiseChoices]

Oh Busy, thank you! You are a very kind soul. Brought tears to my eyes. I want to believe so badly that my daughter loves me

Yes, this therapist does prefer cash.

I like a lot what you tell me about your relationship with Amy. It's a model for what is an independent, healthy adult Mother daughter relationship to me. You have such good boundaries with each other. You call the relationship close yet you do not get into each others business. I struggle with healthy boundaries due to my relationship with my own Mom where I feel like I have to disclose most of everything or she will feel unloved . You have given me much to think about and it will help remaining detached from my own daughter (with love) and let her work out her own issues and difficulties.

Much love !

 

[BusynMember1]

Wise, it seems we both are awake nights. Pacing the floor?? I am lol.

Your daughter loves you. She loves you a lot! Never doubt that! As for Amy and me, I don't need to fear for her so I don't.

But I found.out something new about Kay using a legal substance called kratom and it is very dangerous. My fear, the reason I am up pacing, is Kay. I can't trust her choices so I fear for her. The Al Anon in me knows that talking to her myself or through anyone else about Kratom will make her revolt and rage and do no good. The mother in me wants to beg her to stop

Like that will work!

So while what I have with Amy is lovely, there is Kay and she hates me now. I really believe this. Yet I still love and worry about her. And Amy is going after Jaden which is good and right. But it will erode anything I may have left with Kay. Yes, I grieve again.

I am trying to be strong, reading Al Anon books and not sleeping. Praying in the night for God to take care of Kay. To help me take care of myself. I like the solitude of night. That is when I feel closest to God.

It is easy to have a healthy relationship with a healthy adult. But it's impossible with Kay.

Your daughter is somewhere in between with tons of promise! I like her...and you.

I suspect when all shakes out, you and she will both be stronger.

Many blessings!

 

[WiseChoices]

I am in Europe at the moment. It is 11:30 am here.

I am so very sorry for your worry and fear about Kay. I understand you so well! I have been sick with fear and worry about loved ones on drugs. It is a dreadful experience. And you already have the solution: Al-Anon and its teachings .You can only take care of yourself and turn Kay over to God. And you know that . And it's hard. It is so much harder with our children than with anyone else. My heart is with you, dear Busy. I am praying for you and Kay. I pray for a miracle for your daughter. And that she be safe always.

You are right: it is easier to have a healthy relationship with a healthy person .

I have done some soul searching while navigating through the airport and, in tears, I have to admit that Copa is right: both of my adult children have been abusive to me. I have allowed that. And no matter what they said or did, I always continued to love and forgive, at times mistaking spirituality with self respect.

My son was at the therapist in question with me 2 years ago Christmas. And he laid into me verbally calling me a f...... addict (I have been in recovery longer than he has been on Earth), said I had never done anything he could be proud of for me, said the birthday parties I had thrown him had all been for me , and when he looks at me , he wants to kill himself. Said he doesn't love me .I took it. Therapist did not step in .