Too much?

donna723

Well-Known Member
I think it's just a 'kid thing'!

I have a friend who raised five daughters, including a set of twins. When they were in their mid-twenties the twins finally admitted to her than when they were little, at least half of the time that she sent them in to take a bath, they'd just sit on the edge of the tub and splash the water around with their feet so she'd think they were in the tub! She never had a clue!
 
Donna, I do not take offense at all. I need to hear all of this, harsh or not!

I don't know what the deal is with the shower. She used to take one every other day, no problems. Now she fights me. Short of dragging her into the shower myself, I can't think of a way to "make" her do it. This is one of those things where I just let natural consequences take over. Let some other kid tell her that she stinks; maybe then she will shower. I did the same thing in the late fall when she didn't want to wear her winter coat because she didn't like how the cuffs felt. Fine, kid. Freeze. I let her go in a sweatshirt. Well it was only a couple days and her teacher made a little coat (cut-out of construction paper) with a note on it to "remember to wear your coat" for her to stick on the fridge. Well she wore her coat every day since. Because it wasn't ME telling her to do it.

I am definitely going to pick up "Manipulative Child" (by the way, Kataya, I read Penelope Leach back when I was pregnant with Copper, then again when I was pregnant with Tink, just as a refresher). Thanks for all the great ideas.

I can do this!
 

amazeofgrace

A maze of Grace - that about sums it up
Kitty I can relate Tink and my difficult child II are two peas in a pod. But I think it is our coping skill to just appease sometimes, because what's the alternatve, an all out war.... it gets exhausting.
 
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timer lady

Queen of Hearts
BBK,

I pick my battles wisely, however I know what battles I'm willing to take on before they even arise. My line in the sand has been & always will be medication compliance, physical &/or verbal abuse, & respect for others.

Saying that, I have learned early on to give my tweedles 2 choices & no more. If they choose other than what has been offered they get nothing. After a bit of training on my part, kt & wm learned that what I said is what I meant. They had 2 choices & that is what they learned to live with.

When they were younger I offered them "redo's" so they could gather their thoughts on what I was offering them. You wouldn't believe how many "redo's" I've lived through. ;)

To this day when I walk into a store with kt & on the very rare occasion with wm, I let them know what we are there for & what we are going to pick up. The same with a restaurant ~ we go over the menu before we walk in to order. The biggest battle is the soda - I allow anything non caffeinated.

It's taken a lot of time & practice to get this down. I've found when I offer 2 (sometimes 3 if I have time) choices things run much smoother. We still use "redo's" & the occasional "stop & think" to slow down the thought processes & see what is being offered.

As kt & wm are teenagers & much "cooler" they don't want to be embarassed in public ~ they've learned to accept the adults decisions. Because of that, I've learned to lighten up & let them make choices themselves & within reason.

Good luck.
 

meowbunny

New Member
I think one thing that a lot of us do is forget to move things up from one basket to the other. It really is supposed to be that once one issue is resolved, something from Basket B is moved to A and so on down the line.

Sadly, it really is easier to give in to prevent the meltdowns than stand firm. One of the first things I worked on were my daughter's meltdowns. It took almost 2 years but I did get her from 4-hour rages to 2-minute temper tantrums. Those I just ignored. Stopping the rages was not easy and I would sit in tears many times. For me, it was taking her into her room and holding the door shut from the opposite side of the door so she couldn't get out. She would kick, scream, throw things (I'd removed everything breakable after second rage) for hours. I would not respond as long as she was making noise. If she quieted down, I would open the door and ask her if she was ready to do whatever had been asked of her. This frequently brought on a new rage, so back to the closed door I would go. It was hard. I really wanted to go in and hold my baby and tell her the world would be good to her but that would have been a huge disservice to her.

For Tink, it is a new year and she is getting to be a big girl. It is time she started learning the world doesn't revolve around her, not even her mommy's world. For my daughter, I would schedule play dates for the two of us. That was 100% her time and nothing barring a true life and death emergency would be allowed to interfere. I wouldn't even answer the phone during this period. However, for that play date, she had to give me an hour where she played alone and did not bother me unless she was bleeding. Every interruption of my time was 5 minutes of lost time of our time. It wasn't easy to stand firm since I let her into my world nonstop for 3 years but it was necessary for her own survival as she grew.

Choices are crucial and sometimes the choices are between the lesser of two evils. Pick a toy and go to your room and play quietly or go sit on your bed and do nothing are not choices a kid wants to hear but sometimes those would be the options I gave my daughter. When she refused and I forcibly took her to her room, the rage would start. It took a good 6 months for her to understand those were her only choices but she did finally get it.

It really isn't easy to change old habits and, right now, both you and Tink are in those habits. I think most parents with raging children falls into this rut. It is easier to let the child basically run the house than put up with the pain of the rages. The worst of it is, as you try to stop them, the rages will increase and so will other undesirable behavior. However, you do have to let her become the little girl and you the mom. The only way to do it is to tough through the hard times and, trust me, they will be hard times. She will escalate every bad trick she can come up with. You're going to be tougher, smarter and trickier. The end result will be worth it, though. She'll end up a better, stronger and more rounded young lady. That was the only thing that kept me going when the rages, etc. got worse. I'd just keep reminding myself that the goal wasn't for today but rather for when she was older. The lesson would be far less traumatic for my child when she was young than learning in her late teens that the world didn't care what she wanted and that having major temper tantrums only got you ostracized from society.

You can't change everything at once. It really is one battle at a time. When you get one or two things at least semi-solved, then you bring up something from Basket B to A and work on it. If you're lucky, it will only take you a few years to change all the old patterns. Remember, she isn't the only one who has to change. So do you. Today's patterns are as much a part of you as they are her. The difference is you can see the harm the patterns are doing, all she can see is that she is getting what she wants.

Good luck and remember we'll be here to help when it gets really ugly.
 

house of cards

New Member
I am also guilty of taking The Explosive Child and using basket 3 too much. I bought the next book he put out and it tries to correct this common problem by putting alot more information on the basket 2-negotiation part.

I'm not so hot with basket B, but that is where the difficult child gains their self control and improved behavior. I might be way out of line here but you seem tired, worn out, but a very good and wise mom, so I hope you don't start in deeper then a level you can maintain. It wouldn't help at all if you just shake things up for a month and then slide back to the usual so I hope you make changes you will feel comfortable living with, baby steps if needed.

Does Tink read?? I like the 1/2 hour reading time idea as a start to you getting some alone time. Does Tink get a night time snack? That could be based on her getting a shower. In my house the dinner is a very tough battle and I have choosen not to fight it unless I've made what they wanted and they try to change their minds. That doesn't sit well with me...go figure.

I also like Timer's idea of 2 choices. My littlest M will fight a time out unless I give him 2 choices of where to go sit, seems silly but it works for him, I guess it gives him just a smidgen of control.

One other tip I found helpful is to retrain myself about how I felt listening to the rage/complaining/crying/wall banging...whatever. I tell myself that that is the noise of me doing my job, I try to set expectations for myself of how often I should be hearing it. So when it happens I just tell myself, "that's one"

I'm rooting for ya, take care
 

donna723

Well-Known Member
I think Linda is on to something about the 'choices'. When you narrow the field, you still get the results you want and they still get some input.

Maybe instead of "What do you want for dinner?", it could be "Would you rather have fried chicken or baked?" or even "Would you like hamburgers or hot dogs?" I've heard of parents who laid out two outfits in the morning and let the child choose between just the two instead of having battles over what they would wear. I vividly remember one time when my daughter was very small and I had asked her to decide what she wanted to wear to day care. She decided that she would wear her winter coat (in July in Florida!), a pair of pink ruffle-butt panties and white sandals - and the fight was on! Note, I only did that ONCE!

Maybe you could word it like, "Would you rather take a bath or a shower?"
 

crazymama30

Active Member
BBK, I was actually thinking about this the other day. There are so many things I do for difficult child that he should do for himself. I have changed some things, but there is so much more to fix/change. I try to work on one thing at a time. Certain things are mandatory. Showering/bathing, eating (difficult child will skip this to play and is underweight), homework, I am sure there are more. When my difficult child was tinks age, I would occasionally have to go scrub him, or else he would never get clean. To this day he can wash his hands and still have dirt on them. Visible!!! Many times I have to chase him down and send him back to the table as he "forgets" (voluntarily???) what he is doing.

You deserve a pat on the back for being able to step back and see you situation clearly. That is so hard to do.
 

jbrain

Member
I sure wish I would have been in this group when difficult child 1 was young. I too am guilty of letting her get her way because it was easier. I think with your support I could have opened my eyes sooner and dealt with her better. Her therapist didn't help either--sort of supported letting her have her own way in everything.
Jane
 
BBK,

You've already received lots of great advice. Unfortunately for us, when it came to difficult child 1, none of the already mentioned advice worked. difficult child 1 just didn't care about negative consequences as a result of his poor behavioral choices.

difficult child 1's therapist very wisely told us that in order to get difficult child 1 to obey house rules, we needed to use the one item that difficult child 1 values above everything else - His computer. We explained to difficult child 1 that he had to earn "Reward Time" in order to use his computer. We made a Reward Chart and kept it on the refrigerator. He could earn x amount of time per day IF he followed our rules. He lost x amount of time per day for breaking a rule(s).

Like Linda, under no circumstances do we allow violence of any sort, lack of respect, or failure to take medication. If difficult child 1 resorts to any of these things, he loses his Reward Time for that day - period.

At first we ignored all behaviors except violence and not taking his medication when asked. Even if he was rude and disrespectful we allowed him to have his Reward Time if he took his medication on time and was not violent. Gradually, we added other items to the list that difficult child 1 must do in order to earn his maximum Reward Time per day.

Unfortunately, difficult child 1 will be 18 soon and we still have to use Reward Time. In some ways, he is just so immature!!! Unfortunately, his computer IS his life. Sadly, we haven't been able to change this.

Anyway, without rambling on and on and on any longer, if you try all of the above ideas and still don't have much luck with Tink, maybe you could try a Reward Chart for awhile. Ideally, you would be able to phase it out gradually. I know there are lots of people here who don't believe in using Reward Charts. For us it has been the one thing that has allowed us a tiny bit of peace. (difficult child 2 is a different story but I won't get into that here.)

Sending lots of hugs. I know how difficult it can be when our difficult children rule the household. WFEN
 

busywend

Well-Known Member
BBK, everyone's situation is different and this pick your battles means different things to different families.

I personally feel like I wish I had spent more time on me through the years. I would work hard on making sure you have some time to yourself.

The other things work themselves out. The shower and the dinner issues were big ones here. They still are not exactly as I would have liked them to be. Like so many other things in life it usually does not turn out the way we pictured it.
My difficult child at 17 is just now starting to shower and brush her teeth without prompting from me. Not at her father's though. Just my house. Tink is different and you have to be open to non-traditional parenting techniques. No matter what others think about them, sometimes they really are the best for your family.
 

SRL

Active Member
Too much power. Tink has way too much power and control. I think I took "pick your battles" too literally. Now we don't do anything unless approved by her because it's better than listening to her throw a fit. Example: let's have chicken for dinner. "nooo I hate chicken" So fine, we don't have chicken. Time to take a shower. "nooo I hate showers" (this is a new one). Fine, be stinky. Lets buy these holiday decorations. "nooo I want THESE instead". Fine, not hurting me, we get these instead.

What I rationalize as picking my battles (or natural consequences, in the case of not showering) has now become Tink runs the house. How do you undo that? Where do you draw the line?
?

Personally I would avoid any major move that conveys overtly "I'm taking back control". That means not sitting down and talking with her, etc. I would start slowly and keeping The Explosive Child in mind, start reworking how you phrase things in order to regain some control. Instead of "Let's have chicken for supper" you say "I've made chicken for supper. If you don't want any feel free to have a sandwich or some yogurt." And then don't get bent out of shape if she chooses the option. By phrasing it the way you are now, and then giving up your preference when she fusses, it really does give her the control.

Instead of "Let's buy these holiday decorations" (which gives her control over what you're doing) say "I'm going to buy these. You can pick out something you like for under $3".

Whenever possible, start phrasing things so that her knee jerk "NO" doesn't always impact you. She is a seperate human being from you and is at an age when her options can reflect that.
 
SRL, I like it a lot. I tried a little chatting with her over changes in the new year, and she simply shut down. It probably will have to be gradual.

You know, I took 3 separate parenting classes from the time Tink was born until she was 3. Not one of them addressed such a strong willed child.

GAAAAHHH
 

Wiped Out

Well-Known Member
Staff member
BBK-We too have been guilty at times of having too much in basket C. When difficult child is violent all but taking his medicine and violence were basket C. Now that he is relatively stable (knock on wood) we are working on the other things. It's hard because he likes control-a lot! Hugs.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
BBK, any chance there's some Aspie in there with Tink?

I've only skimmed the replies, I'm not well enough to sit at the computer for too long at a time. So forgive me if I repeat what others have said. I did see that you have had some good advice already.

The insistence on the new way being the way it always must be done - you get into "habits" after just one experience, especially with Aspies. For example, ONE day, for a treat, I decide to buy a slushie for difficult child 3 after the beach. So next time and every other time afterwards he then says, "But you ALWAYS buy me a slushie after we go to the beach!"

He understands now, but will still ask. He's finally learned that if I do it once, he should be grateful. If I do it regularly, it still isn't a promise to do it every time. I also use logic - if it's a scorching hot day AND I'm feeling generous AND I happen to be somewhere that I can buy a slushie, then I MIGHT buy him one. But at the expense of any other treat I might get him.

You've not been picking your battles. You've been avoiding all confrontation. As a result you're teaching her that the world revolves around her. So is it any wonder that she is taking all your generosity as her right?

She needs to be reminded that you are making concessions. That means with dinner, you cook what you want to cook. However, plan for something else to be available, if she really hates chicken. I had problems like this with easy child 2/difficult child 2 - she is very faddy with foods, I hadn't realised just how much a slave I had become to her faddishness, until she moved out.

However, I would be swayed by her tastes but not totally controlled.

difficult child 3 - he will eat bolognese sauce in various forms. It can be used to make nachos (the way our family eats them, which is my invention to make sure he gets enough meat) or can be eaten with pasta. Or I could turn it into chilli con carne. I always have some in the fridge and more in the freezer. Then I will cook what I want to cook.

Our rules with meals - I cook what I want, but difficult child 3 has to have a taste. He then has to say something he likes about it and something he doesn't like about it. He needs to explain himself in ways that are acceptable and ways we understand. He can then eat what he chooses to. This tactic was brought in by BF1 while we were all travelling around NZ in 2007. I love to try the foods of an area, to buy the local produce and eat the meals the locals eat. And in NZ they eat a lot of kumara (orange sweet potato). BF1 LOVES kumara and used it to make a number of different dishes. difficult child 3 tried them, BF1 made him describe the taste and texture and then he was permitted to eat something else. A lot of the time, difficult child 3 decided to eat more of the food he had previously said he didn't want.

Something I found with easy child 2/difficult child 2 when I involved her in meal planning, was she was imposing her tastes on the whole family. She mightn't "hate" chicken, she just might prefer something else. But given half a chance she was trying to avoid chicken because I relied on it a lot, and she always got fed up easily with things she had frequently. If I just went ahead and cooked chicken, she'd happily eat it. Or maybe grumble a bit, but eat it.

When she got particularly argumentative about it, I gave her the job of planning and preparing dinner. The rules are: it can't cost any more. It has to feed the same number of people. She has to prepare it all herself, including shopping for it, acquiring it, cooking it and serving it.

For example - it's all very well to say, "I don't want roast chicken tonight, I want lasagne," but it takes a lot more work to make lasagne. If she wants it badly enough, she will make it. In the process of making it, she will realise just how much she is asking of me.

Christmas ornaments or anything for the house - that is YOUR choice, you are entitled to buy what you want. If she is expressing dislike for ANYTHING she needs to be able to say why, with a good reason. She needs to be able to say, "I don't like those ornaments, I think they're too garish, the pattern is too large and seems out of character."
She should NOT say, "Don't buy those, they're disgusting." It doesn't really convey anything.

It's all a compromise and communication is an important part of the key. She has to learn to get on with other people in the world, part of this is learning how to communicate effectively and positively with people.

I use the 'flatmate" principle. After a certain point I treat my child as a flatmate. The child has to learn to get on with everyone else in the house, as if she is sharing an apartment. General courtesy applies, as does consideration for others, pulling your weight (financially as well as with chores). Some mutual compromise is needed, but part of this is, when you're wanting a meal that you know she doesn't like, you have available for her (at her choice) something she can eat instead.

Showers and personal hygiene - we will tell them when they're stinky. There has to be a good reason for not showering (no hot water, for example). We still strongly recommend an underarm scrub with a washer and then application of deodorant. When clothes are stinky because the child is stinky, then the child must wash their own clothes. We have a bottle of vinegar in the laundry, all sweat-smelly clothes put in the laundry must have vinegar splashed on by the clothing owner. If the clothing still smells when it's been washed and going on the clothes line, then the owner is called and made to take care of it themselves. Failure to do this results in them being ostracised by members of the family. In extreme cases (difficult child 1 at various points) he had to wash his own clothes in a separate load. Nobody else would allow their clothes to be washed with his. I was happy to teach him how to successfully clean his unbelievably smelly and dirty clothes and I think being told by the others in the family that they didn't want their clothes washed with his, was a nasty wake-up call.

The opposite sex can help - difficult child 1 did shower a lot more when he had a girlfriend. His wife makes sure he showers a lot. difficult child 3 isn't always aware when he's stinky, but we have certain rules and they include the need to wash regularly. He will sometimes try to avoid a shower if it's late at night and he's tired, but lately I've been insisting that he shower as soon as we get back from the beach, for example. If he showers after an afternoon beach trip, then he doesn't have to shower later at night.

Use commonsense, use the need for her to compromise and consider others. Make her explain her objections and ANY choice that affects other people, then the wishes of others must always be considered also. If you always want A for dinner and she always wants' B, then logically you should take turns having what you want.

She needs to learn compromise. Otherwise you're only making the situation worse.

It's not "Explosive Child" that says, "give way all the time". It is all about compromise and allowing the child SOME control where appropriate.

You take from it what you can use and leave what won't work for you.

I hope this helps.

Marg
 
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