Transgender Rights...

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by lovemysons, Oct 6, 2015.

  1. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member

    Hi all...It's been awhile since I've posted and here I am posting about a provocative situation.

    See, dear husband is a coach and coaches youth leagues. Well, on Saturday morning's a man who is now identifying as a woman and dressing the part complete with bra and thongs (yes you can see the thong when he bends over)! Well, he is coming into this establishment with one of his children (a boy) and his wife and his two "male friends" who are grabbing his butt etc and watching his son participate while carrying on in a very sexualized obnoxious way!

    No one knows how to address the situation...does anyone say anything to this man/woman about his behavior or is this discrimination??? And which bathroom does he/she use?

    Keep in mind this is a "kid friendly" "family friendly" environment. In fact this establishment once seemed to attract a lot of hoodlum type characters that because of reconstruction and new rules has mostly gotten rid of that "element".

    Dear husband has said something to the owners and they may be contacting a lawyer to help them decide what is appropriate. They, of course, do not want to be sued!

    So what do you all think about this situation?
  2. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

    Sounds wise to contact a lawyer for advice.
    The grabbing the butt thing in front of children certainly sounds inappropriate no matter what your sexual situation.
  3. SuZir

    SuZir Well-Known Member

    In cases like this it is best to forget the transgender thing. It really doesn't make a difference anyway. Focus should be in actions.

    She is totally on her rights to dress as she chooses to as long as long as she doesn't break the decency laws (I assume one should keep certain body parts covered by law in public places in most countries.) Overly sexualised behaviour is another matter. If establishment has some rules about things like butt grabbing or what kind of language is allowed, those of course are same to any male or female patron. It doesn't matter one iota, if man or women in question is transgender or not.

    About bathrooms: It is best that people are let to use the bathroom they feel comfortable to use. At least here ladies' bathrooms tend to consist common area and cubicles. Cubicles have locks and everyone in the common area is fully clothed and most personal thing they do is wash hands and add make up. Gents' bathrooms on the other hand usually have urinals in common area so there is much more 'to show.' I would assume that transgender women would strongly prefer ladies' bathroom.
  4. Lil

    Lil Well-Known Member

    I agree with SuZir. Forget that she is biologically a male. Would someone say something to a woman who is behaving that way, behaving very sexual and having men grab their butts? If so, then it's not discrimination to say it to a transgender woman, though it actually might be better to say it to not only her, but the men who are doing the grabbing.

    Be very sure to use the correct pronouns. She is a "she" now. Address her exactly as you would any other woman.

    A transgender person uses the bathroom they feel most comfortable in; generally the bathroom of the gender they identify as.
  5. Tanya M

    Tanya M Living with an attitude of gratitude Staff Member

    None of us know what it's like for someone who is transgender. I certainly do not understand it but I do have empathy for them nor is it my place to stand in judgment of them. I can only imagine how tortured and confusing life must be for them.

    That being said, I think the transgender aspect is a mute point in this scenario. If you take away the fact this person is transgender and focus only on the behavior, that is the true problem.

    The grabbing of the butt and carrying on in a sexualized way is completely inappropriate.
    If it were me I would try to find out what the rules of conduct are for where the youth league plays and who is the person to enforce the rules. I'm sure there are the standard rules of no alcohol or smoking and there may not be any rules to address this type of behavior. If that is the case it opens up an opportunity for discussion.
    At the very least I'm sure there are community laws in place against lewd behavior in which case if it ever happens again I would have the police on speed dial.

    Unfortunately the episode has passed and to address it now, with the current atmosphere it could be taken as "transgender bashing"

    Hopefully it will never happen again but if it does be prepared. If it comes to a confrontation be very careful with your words. I would be sensitive and address the person with female terms.
    As for the bathroom issue, if the person is dressed as female then I would say use the woman's.
  6. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    I'd address it as if it were a non-transgendered situation. Is this behavior that you would accept from a woman dressed as a woman with a man dressed as a man and their chid and the adult's friends? If not, then that's the only way you can deal with it. How the transgendered man is dressed has nothing to do with it. Unseemly behavior does.

    on the other hand, if this behavior is acceptable with traditional families, you're going to have to get used to it.
  7. GoingNorth

    GoingNorth Crazy Cat Lady

    LMS, I don't see where her being transgendered has anything at all to do with this situation.

    What you have here is a person behaving in a distasteful manner. It should be handled as such.
  8. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member

    Thank you all for your thoughtful replies.
    I agree that this should be handled with regard to inappropriate behavior and leave the whole transgender thing out of the mix. Though I don't think that will be possible.

    We still haven't heard anything from "higher ups" about a decision to say something. But the impression I get from dear husband as well as a friend of mine that works at this establishment is that Nothing will be said at this time. I think the concern is that this individual WILL claim discrimination.

    As far as the bathroom situation far this person has not used the bathroom at the facility. She still has her "male parts" though and there is concern from others about which bathroom she will use with young children going in and out of the bathroom all of the time.

    I will let you all know if the situation changes.
    Thanks again,
  9. SuZir

    SuZir Well-Known Member

    I have to say that only people whose private, male or female, body parts, aside of maybe my own, I have ever seen in public ladies bathrooms have been under four year old crowd, who have been in diapers or used potty. And maybe my own sons bit older when they still needed some help.

    I can't imagine why any children coming and going to lady's bathroom would see her body parts if she uses that. If she decides to use gents and use urinals, then of course it could be an issues. But again her male parts at the moment likely do not differ from males, so would that really be such an issue?
  10. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    If it were me, I'd be wary of the "Say nothing" advice. Someone will say something, and then your discussions about it will become an issue. Anyone who has said anything about "transgender" will be under scrutiny. I'm not sure where you live but in most places you must accommodate either by specific law or the ADA.

    I agree with Suzir - unless stands up to pee in the stall with the door open, or uses the men's urinal in heels and a dress, what is there to object to. The bathroom should be a non-issue unless something untoward happens in the bathroom.

    This is the world we live in. If there are members of your group making a fuss, your leaders should get in front of it before they end up in court for discrimination. Treat the person fairly, as you would want your child to be treated. Address inappropriate behavior by the behavior, not the clothing that the person is wearing. Designated leaders in groups like yours are the ones who will be named in a lawsuit if one comes up.

    Honestly, if I were transgendered and a small community grouop tried to keep me from using the restroom or being a part of my childs activity in the group because of how I dressed, I'd sue as well. Deal with the behavior, not the clothing.
  11. Freedom08

    Freedom08 Member

    Did any of the parents have to sign a code of conduct agreement at the beginning of the season?. We did and it does include inappropriate sexual behavior. Maybe it would be a good idea to have your husband send out a general email reminding parents about this agreement if there is one. Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular but a general reminder. If something happens past that point then it can be an issue.

    I agree with the posters above regarding the bathroom. If she identifies as female it is appropriate for her to use the women's restroom
  12. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    Sounds good, but if she is on the defensive already, she is going to take offense at this. It will also cause talk, which is not a good thing if you're trying to avoid hard feelings or a lawsuit.

    I'm unclear as to exactly what is the behavior that is upsetting. Is it normal hand holding, gentle touches, a kiss here and there? Or is it slobbering all over each other and big handfuls of flesh being grabbed accompanied by lewd noises? Unless she is engaging in what would be considered unseemly behavior if it were between a couple born a man and a woman, the people who are complaining are the ones who need to be reminded about appropriate behavior.
  13. GoingNorth

    GoingNorth Crazy Cat Lady

    Well, having known some transgendered females who hadn't had "bottom" surgery, the way the women's bathroom issue is handled is that they go into a stall to take care of business, same as those born female do.

    Whether they sit or stand I've never asked because frankly, it's none of my business. I know as much as I do about the bathroom thing as I've been to public restrooms with my friends.

    I just haven't bothered to look under the partition to see which way their feet are facing.

    I do think, however, that something needs to be said about this individual's behavior, just as something should be said about ANY woman who is acting out sexually in that kind of environment.

    by the way, her behavior is NOT the norm for transgendered folk. The average transgendered person, male or female, would be just as appalled by such behavior as anyone born to their gender would be.
  14. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member

    Hi all,
    Just a brief update.
    There IS talk going on from other parents of this establishment.
    Apparently, some parents are calling others to see what they have seen (behavior wise) of the transgendered individual on Saturday mornings.

    I don't know where this will lead and husband does not feel that it is HIS place to say anything but moreso the owners of this establishment if, indeed, anything will be said ... Husband really doesn't want to be involved.

    I have also heard from my friend who works there that the transgendered person is wanting to participate on a "women's team" (aside from his son's team) and has gone so far as to submit psychiatric paperwork designating this individual as a woman who will participate...See there could be some who see her participation as an unfair advantage since she was originally born a male. At least that is my understanding.

    So the situation seems to building up.
    Meanwhile, I am trying to get "educated" on the subject. I admit...I have had some trouble with this. It is a confusing and complicated subject for me.

    Please keep in mind that I have not ever met this person and all of this is what I have heard from others.

  15. SuZir

    SuZir Well-Known Member

    It seems that her being transgender is an issue to many people in that community and her flaunting behaviour may be a reaction to that. It's not very mature reaction but it is common. I have seen for example many gay people who usually do not behave 'stereotypically' to start to behave like that, when they feel judged for being gay.

    I myself and my family are part of minority in our community that we can conceal, if we want to. Normally it can be seen and heard by sharp observer, but less sharp may miss it. My son was in one point living and working in the area where many have very negative perception of our minority and while at home and with friends he does not flaunt the minority status, he started to do that there. I know I'm tempted to flaunt, when for example someone says something negative about my minority referring to me in public place. It is matter of pride, not being threatened to hide who you are.

    Distastefulness is still distastefulness, but I have to say that somehow I sympathize.
  16. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member

    I sympathize too this is a condition that this person appears to have been born with. But I ask myself this question...
    What if there were a pill for that?

    I ask myself this question because of what I have to adhere to...You see I have Bipolar disorder. Only dxd after going manic 8 yrs ago and having a psychotic breakdown.
    Now wasn't I born with this extreme, intense, mood-disorder? Certainly I have lost a part of longer nearly as expressive, creative or determined. Isn't it "just part of me that the world should have to accept?"
    NO! It is not. In fact, it was someone from the board many yrs ago that got me started on antidepressants as my behavior was viewed so clearly by others as being in an extreme amount of pain and depression. It was suggested to me that I was "being irresponsible" to not seek treatment. At that time I was very against the medication route.

    I did, however, see a Dr and began Lexapro treatment. This lead to a Manic episode that almost ended my marriage. Then came benzos and me wanting to sleep my son's hellish days away. I almost killed myself by overdosing...I digress.

    Finally I stopped everything and began going to AA and Al Anon but a few yrs later I was having panic attacks while oldest difficult child was in prison. I was in severe pain again but this time taking nothing. I had a psychotic breakdown...complete with hallucinations of every kind, very very real, and VERY horrifying. That breakdown ended on the side of the road with police guns drawn. I tried to grab an officer's gun to shoot myself. I wanted to die. I felt threatend. G-d and the Devil were fighting for my soul. husband was trying to take me to the edge of town to bury me. I "escaped" the vehicle at a stop light and onlookers called the police...anyway that was all part of the psychosis.

    And you know what they did? They locked me up! lol
    NO, I did not get to flaunt "my crazy" around town. Doesn't matter that I was born this way! There is a pill for that.
    And...(I can laugh now) thank G-d!!! I finally had the right diagnosis.

    My point is...and there is more...when is enough enough? Innocence is dead it seems anymore. Our children have to face all the ill's of society. We can't protect them from anything!

    I ask myself...what is next? What if it is someones "predisposition, leaning, tendency" to prefer animals over people. Anyway...Just rambling thoughts. Maybe it sounds sick even to think...but I am sure what is happening in today's world sounded "sick" 50 yrs ago.

    Maybe I am way off track. Maybe this is not even an apples to apples situation. Just my thoughts.
  17. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    I hope that I didn't leave the impression that I would be concerned about that. I'm not. I said, "unless she stands up to pee in the stall with the door open, or uses the men's urinal in heels and a dress, what is there to object to?"

    I wouldn't want anyone to have the impression that I was such a cretin as to look into a stall for any reason. I apologize if I wasn't clear.
  18. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    Legally and for insurance purposes, that is required. If this person was born in a man's body and believes she is a woman and is transitioning into a woman's body, and wants to play softball (or any other sport) the choice is to join a co-ed team or join a woman's team. She can't be one thing one day and another on another day. She's a woman in her head and in her life and then she can become a woman in her body as well. If she is playing on the men's league, there's no way a doctor will perform the surgery let alone an insurance company will pay for it. (There's no pill for it. There's gender reassignment surgery.)

    Honestly, this is a dangerous hot potato you are dealing with here. If other parents want to talk, you need to be sure that you exit those conversations as soon as you can and make sure that everyone knows that you feel it's none of your business. She believes she is a woman, her doctor agrees with her. The courts side with her. She is a woman. Give her and her child the respect and dignity they deserve by leaving her "status" out of the equation. Deal with her the same way you would any other parent. And stay out of the gossip. You could literally lose everything.
  19. SuZir

    SuZir Well-Known Member

    Well, there is and apparently this person is taking them.

    Difference between bipolar and transgender is, that mania and depression are disabling conditions that cause suffering. Being a man or woman is not. However having your biggest sex organ, brains, mismatching your other sex organs can be disabling. I guess the options are, that you cut the brains to match other organs or you give pills and eventually cut the outer organs to match the brain. They are not able to cut female brains to be male brains, not yet at least.

    It all gets mixed up in womb, when not right hormones are present to make brains match the chromosomes.

    It may be easier to think it like this: As you likely know sometimes people are born that do not have clear gender. They have parts of both sex organs etc. Often, especially till now, doctors just decide which gender is more dominant and organs are cut to match. Isn't it easy to think that may guess wrong? That they cut a girl to be a boy or other way around. Now imagine that they do not notice that a baby that appears to be a boy also has womb? Could you imagine that person could anyway feel more like a woman when they grow up? With transgender person only thing not matching is the brain. But brain is rather important part of us.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2015
  20. GoingNorth

    GoingNorth Crazy Cat Lady

    Witz, I'm sorry you took my comment the way that you did. I should've stated it in a general way.

    This is a real hot-button issue for me as I am active on the LGBT rights front, and had a transgender friend kill herself many years ago over non-acceptance by family.

    The advice to LMS is good, by the way.

    LMS. Stay out of it. It's none of your business at all. This woman is a woman. Period!

    If you can't accept that on some level. Keep your mouth shut. Period!