Troubled 13yo from tough background is extremely defiant

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
It doesn't have to be Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) for there to be attachment problems.

But it does sound like there needs to be some work done between your parents... if anything is going to work, those two MUST be on the same page, and consistently support each other, and work through the issues together... Absolutely vital. So important, that this one issue may be more at the heart of the problem than anything else...
 

ksm

Well-Known Member
Question: She has a good relationship with Grandpa. He is also her primary caregiver. Although my Mom is the enforcer, and Grandpa is not united with her efforts. Niece told me last night that "Grampy doesn't care about what I post on FB. He just tells me to delete it." (This is in regards to the horrible names she has posted about my Mom).
So back to asking my question- is it likely Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) if she can have a relationship with him, loves him to death, seems to respect him and listens to him, but not my Mom? She is highly capable of building relationships, and has friends, etc.

Grandpa HAS to get in the game. Once, we had a teen age boy staying with us for a school year. Great kid, but one day he got irritated at me for telling him it was time to get off the computer. He said something slightly inappropriate - and my husband got up, asked him what he said, then explained that no one talked to his wife that way, especially in his own home. The student never did it again. AND... when he went home at the end of the year, his mom called and said her son was a boy when he left, but came back a young man. husband taught him to respect me... much better way to handle it than for me to demand respect.

Your niece is playing the divide and conquer. It isn't fair to your mom to always be the bad cop. Grandpa should take a stand. KSM
 

Allan-Matlem

Active Member
The fact that there was not a ' united front ' against your niece has actually enabled grandpa to build a relationship with your niece. To work with your niece , build trust and attachment you cannot be a bad cop. When a kid trusts an adult, sees them as a help in pursuing their interests things begin to happen. When kids see this , they are also more able to accept parental decisions which they don't like , because they ultimately trust them. I think input from the granfather could be useful . Of course in order to start solving actual problems we need very specific and detailed input from your niece. This will be more useful than adding a label to her name.

Allan
 

orcaauntie

New Member
The fact that there was not a ' united front ' against your niece has actually enabled grandpa to build a relationship with your niece. To work with your niece , build trust and attachment you cannot be a bad cop. When a kid trusts an adult, sees them as a help in pursuing their interests things begin to happen. When kids see this , they are also more able to accept parental decisions which they don't like , because they ultimately trust them. I think input from the granfather could be useful . Of course in order to start solving actual problems we need very specific and detailed input from your niece. This will be more useful than adding a label to her name.

Allan

Thank you, Allan. Do you recommend sitting down with Niece and ask her what she needs? I did recomment to Mom yesterday afternoon to sit down with Niece and say "I've noticed we haven't been getting along lately. What can we do to solve this? What do you need from me?", and when she tells her- Mom can say something she needs from Niece.. reciprocating.
No bad cop- got it. Except there does need to be consequences for her actions in order to set and maintain limits (in my opinion).

Can any of you suggest ways to get Niece to trust Mom? Also, niece has said she does not think my Mom trusts her. This is a big issue and Mom and I talked about it last night. While Niece was visiting me, I sat down with her on her bed, in her room so she was comfortable, and asked her- "What can we do to get you and Meme to not fight so much?" And she said- "I want her to trust me.".. so any suggestions on how to make this happen?

I will also discuss grandpa's behavior with my Mom. However, I am not sure he will listen/follow through- he is very stubborn. He does tell Niece she needs to behave. But when Niece thinks that Grandpa doesn't care what Niece calls my Mom, that is a problem.
 

orcaauntie

New Member
So..... what to we say to said 13 y/o when she said "I want to live with my Mom!" Because Grandma and Niece are arguing (a lot lately)? The courts have ordered that the kids cannot live with their Mom. But, what do you say to the kids when they say this out of anger? In the last few days, the two difficult child's have said this. For whatever reason there's been a lot of arguing going on lately and my Mom is about to crack. When they are not angry, they say they want to live at Grandma and Grandpa's and never go back to their Mom... but when they are angry it's a different story. :(
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
We get: "I'm running away to live with (person of the week)". We're the most simple basic family setup you can get. M & D and two bio kids. This whole "get me outta here" stuff is normal teenage stuff. Its just that when you have a complicated family situation, the lines they pull hurt more, and they don't understand that part. But really. I pulled lines like that (I'm leaving to go live with auntie xx). Adopted bro threatened to call his social worker to take him away. We ALL pulled that - on a regular basis. Now, granted, we weren't exactly a neuro-typical family. (3 difficult children minimum). But... my more-neurotypical friends were doing the same thing.

One of the challenges of challenging kids is, sometimes its hard to differentiate between the "over the top difficult child behavior" and the "over the top teenage behavior".

This is one area where family therapy might help though... an independent third party may help Niece see that the sentiment is normal but the approach is "fighting dirty" and she'll get farther with a different approach.
 

orcaauntie

New Member
We get: "I'm running away to live with (person of the week)". We're the most simple basic family setup you can get. M & D and two bio kids. This whole "get me outta here" stuff is normal teenage stuff. Its just that when you have a complicated family situation, the lines they pull hurt more, and they don't understand that part. But really. I pulled lines like that (I'm leaving to go live with auntie xx). Adopted bro threatened to call his social worker to take him away. We ALL pulled that - on a regular basis. Now, granted, we weren't exactly a neuro-typical family. (3 difficult children minimum). But... my more-neurotypical friends were doing the same thing.

One of the challenges of challenging kids is, sometimes its hard to differentiate between the "over the top difficult child behavior" and the "over the top teenage behavior".

This is one area where family therapy might help though... an independent third party may help Niece see that the sentiment is normal but the approach is "fighting dirty" and she'll get farther with a different approach.

It definitely is normal teenage stuff, and yes it does pull harder given the current situation. It doesn't help that she's since become FB friends with BioMom (against no-contact order, which my Mom is filing a motion in the courts this week or next) and they are probably "chatting" though the FB chat feature during Niece's computer time. My Mom just has to make the call for family therapy. It's on her radar- I spoke with her about it again just a little while ago actually. So I am glad your advice for this is family therapy, because it's already on the radar. :) Mom I guess said to her that She's sorry, but it's not her decision, the court does not allow her to live with her Mom. I didn't think this was the best approach, so I told Mom to try something more like, "I'm sorry you feel that way, but this is where you belong, where you are safe and where we get to show you that we love you very, very much." ...or something :) We'll see. After school today was rough for them, Mom was ready to crack.. but it's since calmed down a bit. I've picked myself up a copy of "The Explosive Child" so that I can read it along with Mom when hers arrives in her mailbox. Pray for us. When I am ready to have my own children, I bet I'll be well prepared to handle their defiant little behinds! hehe :)
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Can any of you suggest ways to get Niece to trust Mom? Also, niece has said she does not think my Mom trusts her. This is a big issue and Mom and I talked about it last night. While Niece was visiting me, I sat down with her on her bed, in her room so she was comfortable, and asked her- "What can we do to get you and Meme to not fight so much?" And she said- "I want her to trust me.".. so any suggestions on how to make this happen?

I will also discuss grandpa's behavior with my Mom. However, I am not sure he will listen/follow through- he is very stubborn. He does tell Niece she needs to behave. But when Niece thinks that Grandpa doesn't care what Niece calls my Mom, that is a problem.
That's a good idea, but at least to begin with, go easy on the reciprocity or you will be teaching the girl how to manipulate. And when niece says, "I want her to trust me," - the answer is, "Honey - trust has to be earned. You did X, Y & Z recently, it does make it difficult to trust you. I want to trust you, I really do. Maybe we can work back towards a position of trust. What do you think?"

Developing some sort of contract between Niece and your mother could be good. Again, I think a therapist is needed, they could facilitate this.

And yes, grandpa has to be on the same page but I suspect he's taking the gentler approach because he instinctively feels it is working. Both your mother and your stepfather need to be on the same page, but which page is that?

When grandpa insists on the bad words about his wife being deleted form FB, he is indicating that this language about his wife is not acceptable.

As I said on your other thread, sometimes especially in the heat of the moment, kids will say mean nasty things purely to get a shock reaction. When the kid is hurting, they want to make other people hurt just as badly. It's a sort of "misery loves company" attitude and it takes time for the kid to realise it actually doesn't help at all. But they still get positive feedback from friends when the kid giggles at school or in private conversations, "I really stuck it to her, I called her X and she got so mad!" The shock reaction from friends (or the laughing reaction - also a facet of shock) gives them enough of a payoff. It's complex and can't be fought by merely clamping down.

How I handled it - with calmness and humour. Words are my trade (increasingly these days) plus I would try to plan ahead. Especially if the kid uses the same insults over and over, you have the opportunity to carefully plan how to respond next time. For example, the kid says, "Suck my [insert part of anatomy variable here]", my response is to stop, look at them quietly and then say one of two things: "Can you just see me doing that? What would it achieve? It's not really my thing." OR "Thank you - no. I have too much else to do. But if I ever get so bored as to even consider such a thing, I will let you know. Now, isn't it a good ting I'm such a busy person?"
The advantage to this approach - it takes the wind out of their sails on so many levels. They can't go brag to ANYONE about what they said, because at the back of their minds is your response. The people they would brag to will say, "And how did she respond?" leaning forward eagerly to hear juicy details, and it is very hard to keep up the "yeah, she was so angry," routine, when it didn't happen that way. This really does work.

Maybe it's an Aussie thing - we often throw insults at one another obviously in jest. There is a word (I think the site censor has banned it) which refers to someone whose parents are unmarried. We use the word a lot in Australia but the usage gives it a wide range of possible meanings, from close camaraderie to utter loathing. Someone can be "you b******" and you can laugh together. Or you could describe someone as a "miserable b******" and it does not mean they're sad, it means they're a low-down piece of dirt. We even have a charitable organisation called "The Order of Old B*****" which does a lot of really good fundraising for charities. Their founder was a bloke called Sam Weller, definitely a "cheeky b*****" in a nice way.
We have various expressions that tend to de-fuse an insult or turn it on its head. Being told "get to [name of unpleasant fictional place]" generally gets the calm response, "I been and I liked it. Your turn."
A common one in our house - if someone says in my hearing (or now my kids'), "This tastes like [insert unpleasant inedible here]" the response is, "my my, you do get around. I must confess I lack your culinary experience."

Humour can de-fuse hostility really quickly and in using it, you're teaching the child to de-fuse for themselves.

Marg
 

orcaauntie

New Member
Humour can de-fuse hostility really quickly and in using it, you're teaching the child to de-fuse for themselves.

Marg
Very nice! I like it. I mentioned to my mom to be funny or do something to lighten the mood if she starts getting angry. For example- if she's getting mad, tickle her. Or what I did a few days ago was while talking to my niece, it started going in a tense direction because we were talking about stuff with my Mom and I changed the tone by saying something along the lines of "I wish I were closer to you right now because I want to give you a big bear hug and a big fat kiss!".. and the entire mood changed. She giggled. So I do think that humor is an extenstion of this, and could definitely work. :) Thank you!
 

Marguerite

Active Member
I would avoid tickling. It too often has been used as a power thing, "I can make you laugh even when you don't want to," that using it could backfire. Also be aware - abusers often use tickling to get complicity from their victims. "See, she likes it when I touch her!" and it is very hard for the child to deny it, even if they really hate it.

Marg
 

Allan-Matlem

Active Member
Hi,
I previously recommended the http://livesinthebalance.org site

Bonding and trust :
1 plenty of one on one chatting, general non-emotive stuff , just getting the kid to speak , we listening - want conversation that focuses on perspective taking, how you feel about x, How I feel , my concerns, solutions that everyone can live with

2 solving problems - discussion should be around a very specific event or problem in the context of a situation and the concerns of kid and adult. The more specific the better . see the cps model - the empathy stage gathering info from the kid about their concerns - go slow , the need to drill down ( see blog articles on plan B, drilling down ) - I have noticed that sometimes you say , you wish to live with bio mom , what's up ? ...... I can empathy , can you tell me more
Now when kids want something , it is usually a soltion to a concern , people tend to present concerns in terms of solutions , so try to go back a step to the concerns - could be ... wants to feel understood . Make a list of unsolved problems , get input from both mom and niece
problem of trust - be specific , when , over what - what are mom's concerns, what are kids concerns , brain storm a relaistic and durable solution , agree to review how the solution is working , go back to the drawing board

help niece to have a vision , an idea of her ' possible self ' , what she needs to get there , what positive people in the world could help her get there

Allan
 

orcaauntie

New Member
Hi Allan- Thank you so very much. I agree that talking is important. I spoke with Niece for an hour or so yesterday (through online chat) and she told me about how she signed up for cross-country again, and other items that she seemed excited about.. all on her own. I think she may be craving some attention/communication. I definitely think that Mom needs to just sit down with her- talk- see what is going on, what her needs are. Mom says she's only been so defiant beginning with this year or so. So, I assume there's just something going on that has changed her behavior. The new friends I've mentioned before, contributing. Teenage changes being a major factor.

I am going to purchase her a copy or two of the Chicken Soup for the Teenage Soul books. I loved them when I was a teen. They helped me through many difficult times.. and possibly changed my perspective on some things in life.

All- What do you think about a difficult child getting a job? Niece is allowed by state law to begin working when she is 14, so she will not begin a job until 2013. The place she'd work (as long as she got hired) is a small children's theme park that many teens from the town she lives, works at. I worked there when I was a teen. I guess my main question is, do you think it would be better for her to have a job in the summer, or leave town and spend the summer with me (given the knowledge of the situations going on in her hometown with friends, her arguing with my Mom, etc.)
Curious if you all think that Mom and I saying, if she works at XYZ for the summers she is 14, 15 and 16, she saves her $$, and keeps her grades up, and between what she's saved, Mom and myself will pitch in towards a (used!) car for her. This gives her incentive, something to look forward to, and a sense of responsibility in that she has to save her $$ to get something she wants.

Another thing- this has been coming up a lot with her lately- she seems to think that when she turns 13, she can do whatever she wants. "I can have FB when I am 13.", "When I turn 13, I can do whatever I want, so I can go live with my Mom if I want!"
Ugh.. she turns 13 in less than a week. We don't have much time to prepare! :)
 

keista

New Member
She's a kid and can think whatever she wants, but at 13, NO she cannot do anything she wants. AND at any age, if a COURT issued a no contact order, she cannot break it.

Regarding the job, there is a third option - she comes to visit you and gets a job there. That way she's away from the bad influences, and making money. And since friends of any kind would be scarce, she can better focus on her job. The big problem with teens and jobs, is that once they have some money to do stuff, they realize they don't have the time to do stuff. That conflict often ends up in them calling in "sick" and loosing their job.
 

orcaauntie

New Member
She's a kid and can think whatever she wants, but at 13, NO she cannot do anything she wants. AND at any age, if a COURT issued a no contact order, she cannot break it.
She already has broken it, and Mom has told/asked her to delete her Mom but she won't. We got her to at least delete all the nasty things she said about my Mom, except for one for whatever reason she wouldn't delete.

Regarding the job, there is a third option - she comes to visit you and gets a job there. That way she's away from the bad influences, and making money. And since friends of any kind would be scarce, she can better focus on her job. The big problem with teens and jobs, is that once they have some money to do stuff, they realize they don't have the time to do stuff. That conflict often ends up in them calling in "sick" and loosing their job.
Yes, good idea. However, school lets out late up there as compared to here. The place she would work here (seasonal water park) would have already performed their hiring by the time she could get here.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
She already has broken it, and Mom has told/asked her to delete her Mom but she won't.

Can you not use the COURT to force bioMom to remove her FB contact with Niece?
The adult in this situation is more responsible than the child... the adult would be in contempt of court.
And if court agrees this is an issue, can court force facebook to drop account?
Just wondering...
 

orcaauntie

New Member
Can you not use the COURT to force bioMom to remove her FB contact with Niece?
The adult in this situation is more responsible than the child... the adult would be in contempt of court.
And if court agrees this is an issue, can court force facebook to drop account?
Just wondering...
Yes, we may be able to. Mom has to go there and file a motion, or whatever it is that is needed to have a hearing on it. She has the proof that Niece is FB "friends" with her Mom, so there's no way she can deny that she/they violated the order.

Court has already ordered that neither of the kids have Facebook accounts until they are 13. Niece was so close to 13, that my Mom let it slide. Picking her battles I guess, and definitely didn't help the situation any by doing so.. However, now that the order has been violated again, I also wonder if they can rule that Facebook must drop the account altogether. Though, Niece would probably just sign up again and would hide it from us. So again, probably a choose-your-battle thing. If we let her keep this one we can at least monitor it.
 

DDD

Well-Known Member
I was thinking about you all last night and have a PS. In a million years I wouldn't suggest having the Nanny involved. It would embarrass the gd to death and probably prevent them from ever bonding.

Gee, I wonder why I don't sleep peacefully, LOL. DDD
 

orcaauntie

New Member
I was thinking about you all last night and have a PS. In a million years I wouldn't suggest having the Nanny involved. It would embarrass the gd to death and probably prevent them from ever bonding.

Gee, I wonder why I don't sleep peacefully, LOL. DDD

Do you think that would really happen? I am certainly tossed up about that. Could do some good, though it could do some bad. It's just an application anyways- there are many people who submit apps for casting. It'd probably never happen anyways.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
She's probably too old for SuperNanny anyway. It's more a Dr Phil situation, and I suspect if it ever got to air, Dr Phil would be ranting about the need for consistency and following through. It really does make a huge difference. Letting things slide - yes, we need to pick our battles, but we also need to have our lines in the sand marked firmly and clearly, and with consequences for stepping over them. Where you allow leeway and pick your battles determines where the line is drawn in the sand. But once it is drawn, you have to follow through. So draw carefully!

I can't advise on the merits of her getting a job vs staying with you. Too many cultural differences. It might be worth considering, however. Discuss it with her. She needs to be involved in a lot of what is happening, she needs to know that the no contact order with her mother is not imposed by yo guys, but by the courts. I would even tell her what she needs to do if she disagrees with the court. She needs to know that she has rights too, and that the courts aren't being nasty but are in fact trying to keep her safe. I suspect she feels very much out of options, as if everyone else is telling her how to live her life right at an age when they think they can handle it all. She needs to be allowed to try and maybe fail, in order to learn for herself. She can't be shielded from reality, I suspect she needs to embrace it.

Marg
 

Allan-Matlem

Active Member
Hi,

Instead of a job volunteering with a charity or some welfare organization - I like inter-generational activities , gets kids to think maturely, promotes lots of life skills, positive relationships etc

Fb issue - do some cps
adult concerns = internet safety, values etc
kid's concerns = social medium etc

invitation to brainstorm a solution - wonder if there is a way that you can use the internet and we know that it is a safe and positive environment . You might need to define what is safe and positive in her case . A 3rd party would be helpful in facilitating problem solving and reviewing how things are going
 
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