Tug of War

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by Copabanana, Mar 1, 2017.

  1. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Why am I always so long-winded? (I read recently that it is an early sign of dementia--that worries me more than you know.) That said, here goes:

    My son who is 28 has been living with us, or in a property we own nearby, for almost all of the past year, except for two or three months he was in residential treatment. He went to residential treatment at two junctures when we told him to leave because of marijuana use, or not meeting other conditions, such as getting therapy or going to 12 step groups or seeking spiritual direction.

    Two years ago I would never have imagined that I could live so close to him and tolerate it, as has been the case this past year. I have found myself wanting him to be near him, and missing him when he is away--which is incredible.

    But we are at an impasse. Again.

    From the beginning we have required that he be productive. He has worked with my significant other, Miguel, remodeling a property we bought for him to live. At the point I bought the property I was unable to tolerate him close but at the same time he was living as a couch surfer, homeless or hanging on. I wanted to find a way that he could be safe and stable, which was why I bought the house, which required a lot of repairs.

    It was not the best idea, in retrospect, because the neighborhood while filled with hard-working families is in the downtown where there is a significant homeless contingent and drug users, who trigger my son, who himself loves marijuana which he does not consider a drug.

    We started the year tolerant of the marijuana because at one point he had a certificate for allowing medical use, and legalization was approved last year. But we came to see that marijuana was intolerable FOR US. My son could never finish a month with enough money for food. Even without paying rent!

    We initiated a no marijuana rule for him to live with us or to even stay over. While he could and did abstain while in treatment he was never able to test clean while with us. There was always an excuse. And a promise of just a few days.

    We also stopped allowing him to work for us because my son used working for us, as an excuse to not do for himself.

    J, as a condition of being here, you need to find some activities that are goal-directed and productive and constructive...that improve your own life. I do not care what; and test clean for marijuana. Over and over again. My bad.

    Part of it is we, M and I, do not all the time stay on the same page. M LET him work the last couple days of the month, because we had thrown him out of here, and he had no money to eat. I said: why is that my problem? I told him he could take food from the house.

    And then, based upon the two days work with M, my son demanded to come home, feeling he had that right, and a fight ensued.

    Both of us, M and I are fed up but we hold the position that our best shot is to have him near. That we can through boundaries and support, incentivize him to change. Homelessness and marginality did not help my son.

    Yesterday the way we left it, my son and I, was with my son's statement that he would be here this morning to take a drug test and then head to the college where he has arranged to do remedial math for the next 6 weeks. He had mentioned yesterday, too, that he would pay the full rent on Thursday when his full SSI check arrived. (Had I been thinking I would have told him that I require and expect rent on the first of the month.) But when M came home he said he had had words with my son and that my son was unlikely to come over. And he has not.

    We are officially at war, it seems. A stand-off. Miguel and I (if one or the other, does not stray off the reservation) are of like minds: he must test clean to stay over even one night or to get any help from us; he must pay rent whether he is at our house or the other one, (he did last month); he must be using his time pro-actively in a way that benefits him now and long-term.

    While my son tries to squirrel out of each of these things, he knows. And finally, he knows, we mean business, and the ball is in his court. Our relationship is getting more oppositional again, because he keeps not following through and we call him out. But at the same time the conflicts are shorter-lived and less intense. Each of us is motivated to do what we have to do (at least going through the motions) to reconcile and to "start over."

    So why have I created this thread?

    One, it gives me clarity about where I am. I was feeling as if I was giving "too many chances" which my son was blowing off. And this is true.

    As I write this and I reflect I think the wiggle room that we had allowed has been for the most part eliminated. If by tomorrow he has not paid me the rent money, I will change the locks. And with that, we will have come to the end of this road.

    At first we were insisting on a clean marijuana test to stay at the other property. M seems to have backed off of that, and I with him, why I am not sure.

    When he worked for us, while he would try to take breaks every 20 minutes, he was productive every day. But he is not interested or motivated or talented in construction. So we felt we were enabling him to allow him to fill his time with something that would not lead to self-defined improvement. He is highly intelligent, informed, articulate and increasingly self-aware.

    He has been offered help to get subsidized housing in a couple of different counties but he has not done what was required of him to obtain it, nor does he in any way seem motivated to seek this out. He wants to be near us, but does not like our city, which he tries to hold responsible for his lack of "opportunity." My city's fault. Yeah.

    There is nowhere else for him to stay where he would not be homeless. Treatment options are no longer so readily available. If we were to force him out again, I am unsure where he would go.

    I have changed. I endured 4 years with him off and on homeless. I do not think anymore I could bear it. My mental health is a factor, too.

    I am looking for feedback from you folks, if you feel I am being too indulgent or inconsistent or self-serving. Are my conditions unrealistic or too minimal? Am I enabling him? How?

    Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  2. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    When M got home I asked him if he had seen my son. He had been working today at the place my son was staying.

    I think he probably left, I said.

    I do too, said M. I did not see him all day.

    Well. Better this way: self-selection. We had finally gotten our act together, no longer tolerating his lack of follow-through, commitments given and not kept; the appearance of compliance, but only that. Almost all of the want was on our side. His wanting, what we could not, would not give: a free ride. Not just of money, but of initiative, responsibility, follow-through, commitment.

    The wanting to make his life better, and some small steps to make it that way.

    I have to take what I got, which is a lot: a much improved relationship; a year where I was able to love him and show that love in a way I thought was lost to me; the opportunity to clarify and demonstrate that I was willing to try to support him in a way that encouraged growth on his part; increasingly putting my money were my mouth is.

    That is a lot. Let him go into the world again and see what he finds. The door will be open to him. But this time he will have to prove himself first: a clean drug test, a plan already developed and initiated.

    I am sad. Tomorrow was the day he had said he would pay rent. I guess what we offered wasn't good enough, as long as we wanted him to want something for himself.
     
  3. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I asked M, was it inevitable?

    No. Inevitable is what it would have been if we forced him to leave. He decided to leave.

    He does not want to accept authority. He wants to do what he wants.

    He left his duffle bag here and his drum, more like a tambourine. Maybe he will come back.

    I tried so hard. He tried, too. Miguel tried. We all tried. But we wanted different things. I know I cannot want for another person. That is the mistake I keep making.

    Except I have been clear for a long, long time, that I do not want to be a homeless shelter. I do not want to house him to give him a place to hide out from life, to escape from life's exigencies. That would be to deprive him of his right to a history, to collude with him to escape his history.

    I am clear about this. Then why does it feel so bad?
     
  4. Catmom

    Catmom Member

    Hello! Sorry that this has stressed you out today. It seems like this has all consumed your thoughts all day and caused so much stress. I have had days like that. I think that what I am getting from your post is that it sounds like you have tried everything possible to help and well, it didn't work. I always say to myself and my situation that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. That was me, always trying to help yet again, but I would tweak the expectations and rules to get better results and it never worked! Your son is very fortunate that you have given him wonderful opportunities to improve his life but he doesn't seem to be taking advantage of it. Maybe time for you to pull back? I am not sure the exact answer but I myself am past the point of babysitting my adult son...meaning...I am not forcing him to do a drug test.....I am not forcing him to pay rent...I am not forcing him to get a job..all of these conditions didn't make him wake up and smell the coffee, he just found more creative ways to get around my rules. When I finally decided to not babysit my adult son, I had him leave my house. Which by the way has been a few weeks now and he refuses to contact me. He doesn't have a phone so I can't contact him. Hopefully he learning to be an adult now but will keep all posted.
     
  5. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    This is it in a nutshell, Catmom. Exactly so.
    You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Duh.
    Which is exactly what happened.

    I love him so much. Love cannot change another adult unless we are willing. It is finally clear that he is unwilling.

    This is very painful to me. He was gone for over 4 years. That was a different kind of pain, because I froze my heart solid to endure it. Now I am unfrozen.

    But he has to live the life he makes. There is no other way to see it.

    Thank you very much for responding. It helped.
     
  6. pigless in VA

    pigless in VA Well-Known Member

    Copa, as much as you want to incentivize him to change, we absolutely cannot accomplish that for any other person. The only power we have is to change ourselves.

    I think this is worth a great deal. You reached out to your son, changed your relationship with him, and tried to steer him in a positive direction. You have used the past year wisely. Are you in a better place today than you were the last time you showed him the door? I hope that you are.

    I wholeheartedly agree with your no marijuana policy. I think there are some people who dabble in in it and don't allow it to derail their lives. There are others, like my late brother in law, who become consumed by it. It occurred to me the other day that since all of them are now deceased, I no longer need to disguise my husband's family. There is no one left for my words to hurt. So, Bernie, my brother in law, became an alcoholic at a young age. He learned that he could not drink alcohol and be productive. I am proud that he stopped drinking in his 30s.

    The problem was that he never stopped smoking weed. He smoked every day. I do agree that I much prefer to be around a pot smoker than an alcoholic. Alcoholics tend to be violent and angry. The problem is that when a person uses a substance like a crutch, that they never mature emotionally. They don't see it, because they are escaping their feelings through the use of the substance: alcohol, pot, other drugs.

    The story of Bernie's life is short. He had an abusive father. He turned to substance abuse as a 10 year old. He had an older brother who was frequently hospitalized for mental illness. He had one serious relationship as a young adult. She was physically abusive. He never recovered. He never had the courage to attempt another relationship with a woman. He worked, he collected animals, and he smoked weed. When his older brother died by suicide, he didn't have the emotional fortitude to cope. He died by suicide, too. The end.

    When Bernie turned 40, he declared, "I don't feel old. I still think like a kid." Lloyd and I laughed at that statement. It was completely true. Bernie was emotionally about 14 years old. He stopped maturing. He never really became an adult. He held a job that he hated, collected a zoo full of animals, and spent the rest of his time mentally escaping.

    Every year at Christmas, he would spend the majority of the holiday asleep - self-anesthetized. He had no hobbies, no interests, and no girlfriend. He barely existed, followed by a marijuana haze like Pigpen, the Peanuts character. For that reason, I could never allow Bernie to take my kids anywhere. I couldn't trust him to keep them safe. I knew that he had given weed to all of his nieces and nephews. I know my choice hurt him deeply, but my instinct to protect my children took precedence.

    There is nothing you can say or do that can get your son to see what he is doing to himself. You and Miguel have to decide if you can tolerate the pot smoking. It only feels bad, Copa, because you are still his mother. You have a need to know that he is safe. If he is living nearby, you at least know that much. Only you can decide if you can let go of that need.
     
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  7. Lost in sadness

    Lost in sadness Active Member

    Copabanana, I feel for you. I relate to this. As i read all of your replies to my situation, read other peoples situations and slowly work through this I am wondering more and more if by helping our 'children' in this way is only serving the purpose of making us feel better, giving us hope. I do not think what we offer them changes anything. I wonder if we feel that by showing them nice things, helping them with small requirements in return (clean drugs test, working etc) we will change their thought process and make them see a better life. I am not sure now that any of this works. They appear to be wired a different way. If we could change them, it would not make sense that some of our adult children choose to be homeless, not work, do drugs etc rather than live a nice, purposeful life - the one we are offering them. Sometimes, I suppose we have to say "enough is enough" and just pray they see if for themselves otherwise I am now believing we are just setting ourselves up for a lifelong 'job' of creating a life for our adult children whilst they sit back and wait for us to pick up the pieces. Hugs xxxx
     
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  8. wisernow

    wisernow wisernow

    Oh Copa...I can read your breaking heart through your words. Hugs to you. You and M have done everything that you could and more! I think it is time for you to take a step back. You have every right to set boundaries in your home, and your property. It is his choice as to whether he can accept these or not.

    I too bought a property to keep my son safe as he was constantly being kicked out of rentals for his behavior and abuse. Well, that didn't work out so well...he abused that property, got involved in criminal activity and the condo board put a restraining order that he could not return. I think that was my final breaking point....I could think of nothing more to do. I felt that he and the universe had given me a huge slap in the face...how much can any one person tolerate?? I began to see our dance at that time as abusive...and my soul screamed out how much more can you endure? I had to step away to save myself. And in my stepping away, funny enough my son started to take some responsibility. While his life is not what I wish for him, he is finding his path.

    This is so painful for you because as you said you unfroze your heart and let him back in again. But as Pigless said:

    "There is nothing you can say or do that can get your son to see what he is doing to himself. You and Miguel have to decide if you can tolerate the pot smoking. It only feels bad, Copa, because you are still his mother. You have a need to know that he is safe. If he is living nearby, you at least know that much. Only you can decide if you can let go of that need."

    Be kind to yourself today Copa. Many hugs to you!
     
  9. bluebell

    bluebell Active Member

    Copa, Hey I'm here. You know in your heart (since your son is older and has been on his own before) that all these rules and restrictions are only an illusion of your control. You don't have control over this situation, you never have and you never will. I know how when they come back saying all the right things it gives us hope and then we try to structure things for them to succeed. Because they do need structure and they do need rules, we are not wrong in thinking that. But that can't come from us. I know you know this, you just need to break out of this again and gain some clarity.
    It is my husband's birthday today. My son wrote him a text saying all the right things, things he's never said before. I walked in the room to find husband clutching his phone with tears rolling down his face. I read it and asked him what he thought. He said he thinks he is high (benzo). Sad. My point is, we can't even believe what they say, we have to believe what they do.
    Ok, so I have to say something about marijuana. I have glaucoma and take it medically. It seems to be the only thing keeping me from having surgery (which will have to happen). The drops don't lower my pressure. It is best taken at night for my condition, so I usually just go to sleep, wake up the next day and go about my business. It has not affected my life at all. I smoked it recreational all thru college on weekends only and I graduated top of my class. Granted, I could probably be Bill Gates had I not but the world may never know. It is not the drug, it is the personality. I know when my son has weed he is constantly smoking it, which I don't understand as he is already high as a kite. by the way, my son does not know about my rx.
     
  10. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    Copa

    I agree with everyone's posts. You and M have done everything in your power to help your son. Wanting more for him than he wants for himself. Wishing it won't make it so.

    I agree with Bluebell on the pot comments. My son too would smoke his brains out when he did have it although already high. Don't get it. It was a gateway drug for him and did keep him from being productive in any way. He was on our couch all day watching TV and playing video games. He barely got through minimal chores that we'd assign. Then he'd do a benzo binge every so often and raise holy hell. Now I look back and think of how naive we were thinking something was going to change. We kept waiting.

    Your son's life and what you want for him seems to have completely taken over your life and your thought process. You analyze everything over and over and it's painful to watch you do this. It has to be mentally exhausting. I am not saying I do not do this as well but my son is not living near us so it is easier on me. Our mental health does play a role here and it is important.

    I am not seeing a therapist right now because the one I had seen for six months moved on but I did just make an appointment with someone new that she recommended. I hate to start over and maybe I won't have to but I feel that I am getting weaker. I need to talk to a professional to reinforce my boundaries. I see that my thoughts are slowly creeping to thinking more and more about him and what he is doing. Perhaps that would do you some good also. It really does help to just "hear yourself talk" sometimes.

    He asked to come home for a visit next week. He has one class and is getting an A and is on spring break. (We paid out of state tuition so that is why only one class). He is working steady. I said no. I feel bad but I am not ready and he is not ready and having him away (we sent him away March 2016) let me really see how traumatized I have been by everything that had gone on. We see him so it's not like we have deserted him. We help him and we communicate. But we're all doing better when we are not on top of each other. I don't want to know his every move. I do know that he is more stable than he has been in five years because he is all alone except for a girlfriend he has met. He still doesn't get how much he has hurt us or maybe he does but won't talk about it.

    I guess what I'm saying is that he is in his late 20's and it's time that he figure out his own life and that probably means he cannot live near you right now. You have tried and tried and it just does not work. It has gotten better but it is not working for anyone. I know how much you love him, that is evident but he really has to figure out what kind of life he wants to lead.

    Hugs and we are here for you!
     
  11. so ready to live

    so ready to live Active Member

    Oh Copa...here in this painful place once again.
    This is such familiar territory for me. We have once again started trying to point our son toward resources. We will die, that's a given, and he needs to find other avenues for support. Just these past weeks, we have considered buying a little fixer-upper for him to ensure he would have housing. Mentally, emotionally, this is the hardest for me to bear. Your situation has come to my mind so many times.
    You are right about the "homeless shelter" and yet even they have rules. It seems your offer was so much easier than any other option. Rules make order of our society and as long as we are members, we must follow some guidelines, should our sons not also be required to follow? Many times, by my actions, I say "no-my son is special" I would not ever say this verbally. To anyone.
    For me it comes around to this over and over. It is the reason my husband doesn't tell me things at times. It is a trade-off for him---lie by omission or tell me and risk my literal breakdown. A huge burden for him to bear also. So, individually we must find that line.
    I do not think simply withdrawing support makes each one step up and take control of their lives...sometimes people qualify it this way. But if this were true, all young adults from families of less means would just say "there's no help from mom & dad so I'll make something of myself". It doesn't happen that way. I do believe once they are informed of the resources and assisted according to their abilities, we must move out of the way. Your son and mine have been informed and assisted...we are stepping back and letting it play out. I choose and repeat to myself over and over, that this is how I show confidence in their ability and respect of their adulthood.
    I so wish it were easier. Prayers dear Copa.
     
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  12. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Wow! What collective wisdom. Thank you, ladies.

    As I reflect on what each of you has written to me I see that there are two camps, and within each camp, two perspectives, and within each perspective, two people.

    The two people are my self and my son. And what each of us constructs in our lives, are empowered to and decide to decide for ourselves.

    Of course my son wants safety, security, love, esteem, meaning. But no one person can create that for another adult, in good conscience. If they do they create a relationship of dependency at one end of the scale, and a dictatorship at the other.

    So, what I was really doing was not only taking over the responsibility of my son, I was trying to force him to yield his autonomy as an adult. And that he continued to fight me for it, to fight for his freedoms as an adult, is a good not a bad thing. Yea, son.
    Yes.

    I am now trying to figure out what I meant by the two camps, two perspectives part. OK.

    My son's perspective I will try to surmise: he is trying to be a better person, with a better life, in the way that he sees as possible, beneficial and correct.
    Me? I am trying to deal with an impossible position; to reconcile my great love for him; the demands he places on us; my fears of what will come for me....because when I think about his dying, or how he will live when I die, what will happen to him--this is about ME. My fears...as I face death, about his hypothetical insecurity, peril, and suffering.

    So, this is very much about me. All of it. Which is as it should be, because I cannot define his behavior or life, no matter how much I try.

    This morning when M left for work, I told him I was sad. He replied:

    You have to decide what you want. If you want J to learn from life, you cannot be sad. Do you want him to learn?

    Yes.

    Then you cannot be sad.

    I am in an immensely better place today, than a year ago. In so many ways our relationship became normalized, and we found in each other, the son and mother that we have been.

    While I do not dismiss or minimize the importance of this for me, this result cannot have primacy for him. Because he has to make the life that he can and is motivated to make. Not the life I try as hard as I can to impose on him. Which is the dictatorship he was trying to oppose. I can see this.

    We met a man, M and I, who came to our house to study with M, a certain religion. The man asked my culture and the country I am from, (we speak Spanish) and I was gleeful to tell him I was American. Born here? Yes. *How he could overlook my horrible accent, I do not know, but he ascribed it to a regional difference.

    Well, the point is this: he was from Chile where I had visited. And I questioned him why Chile's economy was better than that of other Latin American countries: he said "we had a good dictator who forced people to work." Miguel and I could barely contain ourselves, and I did, just for the record, comment upon the thousands slaughtered and disappeared.

    So, I can see it now: I had become a benevolent dictator. By wanting the "trains to run on time" I opposed martial law. Oh, of course I was loving and sweet, but it was a dictatorship to be sure. Of course my son resisted.
    Now, I do not want to hear this. Sorry Pigless.

    There are always choice points. We just do not see them, or we will ourselves not to.

    I am not ready to accept that my son will not change and mature, more, when (and if) he is ready.

    It is that I cannot change him, or determine the timetable. That is the learning. The broken record that I keep replaying. Not because I want to be a dictator but because I want my son close, and I want him like I want him.
    The emperor with no control. I did not want to be an emperor. I wanted my son better! (Imagine here the emoticon that is having a fit.)
    Well, if truth be told we have marijuana in the house! Somebody gave it to us and M puts it in alcohol to make a topical painkiller. That is what they do in MX.
    Not at all.

    It is that I no longer feel that to be OK myself, I have to protect myself from my son, by ejecting him from my life, and making a great wall to protect myself. That is the great thing we were able to heal this past year. We were each able to lay down the defenses, communicate, and live from our love for each other. And I am hugely grateful for that.

    But that cannot be the primary goal for a 28 year old male. For me to keep him close at the cost of his autonomy, would be wrong.
    Well. You see how that went. My son does not appreciate it because it was not chosen, he did not earn it, or want it. As you all, know.

    Finally..Two camps: There is the idea that CD is about detachment. The detachment ideology. And we differ, many of us, in how we view detachment. Most all of us agree we cannot live their lives for them (some of us have a harder time with this); most of us come to the knowledge that we cannot let them abuse us. Where there is wiggle room, is in the idea of support, and with proximity, and what is colloquially referred to as enmeshment. There are also the very real differences among our children: drug use, capacities, disabilities, as we are different, too: culturally, age, needs, to name a few.
    I fall in SRTL"s camp.

    I do not believe withdrawing support or even distance, changes anybody. And fortunately what this year has shown me about myself, my son, and our relationship, that I do not need to do this.

    If my support and proximity were not the culprits here what was? My son has drown the line, and as if said, no more. I will no longer be demonized by you. Because he hears us as making him wrong, making him the bad buy--when we impose our rules or way of living on him.

    You are the one who chose to come here, to our house, into our life, Not the other way around, we respond.

    He does not see or feel as support, our opening our doors, as long as we want for ourselves, and do not capitulate to him.

    It is a question of power. Of the right to autonomy and self-direction and the personal obligation for self-definition. All of these values that are centrally important to me.

    He was resisting. I believe in resisting. I am proud of my son. He is becoming a man.

    I was so struck over and over again at how good a man he is, and just incredulous that I was able to raise a good man, a good person. Decent. Loving. Kind. Caring. Thoughtful.

    You see, he is all of these things.

    And this is what I need to remember. This was what we were after, and it made it worth it to me. A good man. But now I have to release him mentally. And this thread has helped me immeasurably.

    I am reading a book about Moses. Now I see why I could almost could not bear it, his mother releasing him onto the water. But she did it.

    Thank you everybody.
     
  13. bluebell

    bluebell Active Member

    I can't figure out how to quote but the quote you made about your son being decent, loving, kind, etc. That is not the reality for some of us here. My son is nowhere near a decent human being, was loving as a small child but no longer. Never a kind or caring thought. He has threatened me repeatedly and acted out on threats to my husband and damaged my property. I won't say this makes detachment easier, but it certainly makes my experience VERY different than yours.
    We all have our own paths and struggles. I think this is a good discussion and has helped me as well.
     
  14. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    Bluebell is it HIM that is not that person or is he that bad person when he uses?

    These blur for me at times.
     
  15. bluebell

    bluebell Active Member

    RN (I think we are hacking the thread Copa :)) ,
    Our 'kids' sound familiar in their patterns of drug use (benzos, weed). Since A started this madness at 12, I cannot see the forest for the trees. I can tell you this - every episode of violence or threatening - every time he has damaged my property - he has been on benzos (coming down). I read about the paradoxical rage reaction and discussed this with his doctors. He knows it causes this in him but he still uses.
    His emotional maturity is so stunted at this point, I don't know what is real or what is memorex. I see glimmers of hope and he did have a year or so of relative stability (off benzos, but still puffing weed like out of style). I know he adores our animals and treats them very gingerly and with the affection that I used to see in him as a child, so this does give me hope.
    I certainly raised him to be a good person, but didn't we all - or we wouldn't be here ringing our hands about the outcome?
     
  16. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    Bluebell - my son adores our two furry babies and is very loving to them. Yes it's hopeful.

    Copa - I think the title of this thread says it all. I think all of us here are fighting some type of war. Some of us losing, some of us standing firm, some of us seeing a small glimmer of hope. We all still keep fighting. We may lose some battles but hope to win the war!
     
  17. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Drugs change people. My daughter was a totally different person on drugs than she was as a child and today.

    One comment on providing an adult with a house so that they are never homeless. Not true. If they dont appreciate the house they can trash it. Also there are heat and electric bills and upkeep. Will they even mow tbe lawn?

    I think it is human nature to cherish the things we worked hard for. Think of how our adult kids treat the cars they were given.

    Ok, just my ,02. Back to the thread.
     
  18. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    bluebell. Let me try to explain how you quote. (It was heard for me, too.)

    First you highlight the words you want to quote which will then show up in blue.

    A black box will come up below. On the left will be "quote"; you push that.

    Above will be a message "message added to multi-quote."

    I would just try with one quote, until you get it down.

    At the left bottom of the box where you write your message, you will see a button, "insert quotes" which you click. A blue box will show up, to allow you to review your selected messages.

    In that box, click, quote these messages.

    The quote(s) will show up in the box where you write your post. They will have brackets around them and programming language which is required for them to show up as quotes.

    Try it.
     
  19. bluebell

    bluebell Active Member

    Yes somewhere, if your child is a drug user then he's probably a drug dealer to some extent. I have to limit my liability and exposure to the lifestyle that he has created. Gawd knows what he would be doing in a house that I furnished for him. I'm sure the dealing would escalate and it would become one of 'those' houses. Not on my watch.
     
  20. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    My son just showed up. He said he was trying to call all day yesterday but I did not answer the phone (somebody had switched it to vibrate...I wonder who.)

    He said he had stayed away from M yesterday to give us space and he spent the entire day at the college library doing a math course online.

    I spoke a little bit about what I have come to on this thread and he got frustrated and said: I want to do this. I am doing it. I will take the exam at the end of next week.

    He also cited several other things that he had done, and is wanting to do. I mentioned the drug test. We are at this impasse. I do not know quite what I want to do, or what I will do.

    Thank you, all.