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<blockquote data-quote="Copabanana" data-source="post: 708152" data-attributes="member: 18958"><p>Wow! What collective wisdom. Thank you, ladies.</p><p></p><p>As I reflect on what each of you has written to me I see that there are two camps, and within each camp, two perspectives, and within each perspective, two people.</p><p></p><p>The two people are my self and my son. And what each of us constructs in our lives, are empowered to and decide to decide for ourselves. </p><p></p><p>Of course my son wants safety, security, love, esteem, meaning. But no one person can create that for another adult, in good conscience. If they do they create a relationship of dependency at one end of the scale, and a dictatorship at the other.</p><p></p><p>So, what I was really doing was not only taking over the responsibility of my son, I was trying to force him to yield his autonomy as an adult. And that he continued to fight me for it, to fight for his freedoms as an adult, is a good not a bad thing. Yea, son.</p><p>Yes.</p><p></p><p>I am now trying to figure out what I meant by the two camps, two perspectives part. OK.</p><p></p><p>My son's perspective I will try to surmise: he is trying to be a better person, with a better life, in the way that he sees as possible, beneficial and correct. </p><p></p><p>Me? I am trying to deal with an impossible position; to reconcile my great love for him; the demands he places on us; my fears of what will come for me....because when I think about his dying, or how he will live when I die, what will happen to him--this is about ME. My fears...as I face death, about his hypothetical insecurity, peril, and suffering.</p><p></p><p>So, this is very much about me. All of it. Which is as it should be, because I cannot define his behavior or life, no matter how much I try.</p><p></p><p>This morning when M left for work, I told him I was sad. He replied:</p><p></p><p><em>You have to decide what you want. If you want J to learn from life, you cannot be sad. Do you want him to learn?</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Yes.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Then you cannot be sad.</em></p><p>I am in an immensely better place today, than a year ago. In so many ways our relationship became normalized, and we found in each other, the son and mother that we have been.</p><p></p><p>While I do not dismiss or minimize the importance of this <em>for me</em>, this result cannot have primacy<em> for him</em>. Because he has to make the life that he can and is motivated to make. Not the life I try as hard as I can to impose on him. Which is the dictatorship he was trying to oppose. I can see this.</p><p></p><p>We met a man, M and I, who came to our house to study with M, a certain religion. The man asked my culture and the country I am from, (we speak Spanish) and I was gleeful to tell him I was American. <em>Born here? Yes.</em> *How he could overlook my horrible accent, I do not know, but he ascribed it to a regional difference.</p><p></p><p>Well, the point is this: he was from Chile where I had visited. And I questioned him why Chile's economy was better than that of other Latin American countries: he said "we had a good dictator who forced people to work." Miguel and I could barely contain ourselves, and I did, just for the record, comment upon the thousands slaughtered and disappeared.</p><p></p><p>So, I can see it now: I had become a benevolent dictator. By wanting the "trains to run on time" I opposed martial law. Oh, of course I was loving and sweet, but it was a dictatorship to be sure. Of course my son resisted.</p><p>Now, I do not want to hear this. Sorry Pigless. </p><p></p><p>There are always choice points. We just do not see them, or we will ourselves not to.</p><p></p><p>I am not ready to accept that my son will not change and mature, more, when (and if) he is ready.</p><p></p><p>It is that I cannot change him, or determine the timetable. That is the learning. The broken record that I keep replaying. Not because I want to be a dictator but because I want my son close, and I want him like I want him.</p><p></p><p>The emperor with no control. I did not want to be an emperor. I wanted my son better! (Imagine here the emoticon that is having a fit.)</p><p>Well, if truth be told we have marijuana in the house! Somebody gave it to us and M puts it in alcohol to make a topical painkiller. That is what they do in MX.</p><p>Not at all. </p><p></p><p>It is that I no longer feel that to be OK myself, I have to protect myself from my son, by ejecting him from my life, and making a great wall to protect myself. That is the great thing we were able to heal this past year. We were each able to lay down the defenses, communicate, and live from our love for each other. And I am hugely grateful for that.</p><p></p><p>But that cannot be the primary goal for a 28 year old male. For me to keep him close at the cost of his autonomy, would be wrong.</p><p>Well. You see how that went. My son does not appreciate it because it was not chosen, he did not earn it, or want it. As you all, know.</p><p></p><p>Finally..Two camps: There is the idea that CD is about detachment. The detachment ideology. And we differ, many of us, in how we view detachment. Most all of us agree we cannot live their lives for them (some of us have a harder time with this); most of us come to the knowledge that we cannot let them abuse us. Where there is wiggle room, is in the idea of support, and with proximity, and what is colloquially referred to as enmeshment. There are also the very real differences among our children: drug use, capacities, disabilities, as we are different, too: culturally, age, needs, to name a few.</p><p> I fall in SRTL"s camp.</p><p></p><p>I do not believe withdrawing support or even distance, changes anybody. And fortunately what this year has shown me about myself, my son, and our relationship, that I do not need to do this.</p><p></p><p>If my support and proximity were not the culprits here what was? My son has drown the line, and as if said, <em>no more. I will no longer be demonized by you. </em>Because he hears us as making him wrong, making him the bad buy--when we impose our rules or way of living on him.</p><p></p><p><em>You are the one who chose to come here, to our house, into our life, Not the other way around</em>, we respond.</p><p></p><p>He does not see or feel as support, our opening our doors, as long as we want for ourselves, and do not capitulate to him.</p><p></p><p>It is a question of power. Of the right to autonomy and self-direction and the personal obligation for self-definition. All of these values that are centrally important to me.</p><p></p><p>He was resisting. I believe in resisting. I am proud of my son. He is becoming a man.</p><p></p><p>I was so struck over and over again at how good a man he is, and just incredulous that I was able to raise a good man, a good person. Decent. Loving. Kind. Caring. Thoughtful.</p><p></p><p>You see, he is all of these things.</p><p></p><p>And this is what I need to remember. This was what we were after, and it made it worth it to me. A good man. But now I have to release him mentally. And this thread has helped me immeasurably.</p><p></p><p>I am reading a book about Moses. Now I see why I could almost could not bear it, his mother releasing him onto the water. But she did it.</p><p></p><p>Thank you everybody.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Copabanana, post: 708152, member: 18958"] Wow! What collective wisdom. Thank you, ladies. As I reflect on what each of you has written to me I see that there are two camps, and within each camp, two perspectives, and within each perspective, two people. The two people are my self and my son. And what each of us constructs in our lives, are empowered to and decide to decide for ourselves. Of course my son wants safety, security, love, esteem, meaning. But no one person can create that for another adult, in good conscience. If they do they create a relationship of dependency at one end of the scale, and a dictatorship at the other. So, what I was really doing was not only taking over the responsibility of my son, I was trying to force him to yield his autonomy as an adult. And that he continued to fight me for it, to fight for his freedoms as an adult, is a good not a bad thing. Yea, son. Yes. I am now trying to figure out what I meant by the two camps, two perspectives part. OK. My son's perspective I will try to surmise: he is trying to be a better person, with a better life, in the way that he sees as possible, beneficial and correct. Me? I am trying to deal with an impossible position; to reconcile my great love for him; the demands he places on us; my fears of what will come for me....because when I think about his dying, or how he will live when I die, what will happen to him--this is about ME. My fears...as I face death, about his hypothetical insecurity, peril, and suffering. So, this is very much about me. All of it. Which is as it should be, because I cannot define his behavior or life, no matter how much I try. This morning when M left for work, I told him I was sad. He replied: [I]You have to decide what you want. If you want J to learn from life, you cannot be sad. Do you want him to learn? Yes. Then you cannot be sad.[/I] I am in an immensely better place today, than a year ago. In so many ways our relationship became normalized, and we found in each other, the son and mother that we have been. While I do not dismiss or minimize the importance of this [I]for me[/I], this result cannot have primacy[I] for him[/I]. Because he has to make the life that he can and is motivated to make. Not the life I try as hard as I can to impose on him. Which is the dictatorship he was trying to oppose. I can see this. We met a man, M and I, who came to our house to study with M, a certain religion. The man asked my culture and the country I am from, (we speak Spanish) and I was gleeful to tell him I was American. [I]Born here? Yes.[/I] *How he could overlook my horrible accent, I do not know, but he ascribed it to a regional difference. Well, the point is this: he was from Chile where I had visited. And I questioned him why Chile's economy was better than that of other Latin American countries: he said "we had a good dictator who forced people to work." Miguel and I could barely contain ourselves, and I did, just for the record, comment upon the thousands slaughtered and disappeared. So, I can see it now: I had become a benevolent dictator. By wanting the "trains to run on time" I opposed martial law. Oh, of course I was loving and sweet, but it was a dictatorship to be sure. Of course my son resisted. Now, I do not want to hear this. Sorry Pigless. There are always choice points. We just do not see them, or we will ourselves not to. I am not ready to accept that my son will not change and mature, more, when (and if) he is ready. It is that I cannot change him, or determine the timetable. That is the learning. The broken record that I keep replaying. Not because I want to be a dictator but because I want my son close, and I want him like I want him. The emperor with no control. I did not want to be an emperor. I wanted my son better! (Imagine here the emoticon that is having a fit.) Well, if truth be told we have marijuana in the house! Somebody gave it to us and M puts it in alcohol to make a topical painkiller. That is what they do in MX. Not at all. It is that I no longer feel that to be OK myself, I have to protect myself from my son, by ejecting him from my life, and making a great wall to protect myself. That is the great thing we were able to heal this past year. We were each able to lay down the defenses, communicate, and live from our love for each other. And I am hugely grateful for that. But that cannot be the primary goal for a 28 year old male. For me to keep him close at the cost of his autonomy, would be wrong. Well. You see how that went. My son does not appreciate it because it was not chosen, he did not earn it, or want it. As you all, know. Finally..Two camps: There is the idea that CD is about detachment. The detachment ideology. And we differ, many of us, in how we view detachment. Most all of us agree we cannot live their lives for them (some of us have a harder time with this); most of us come to the knowledge that we cannot let them abuse us. Where there is wiggle room, is in the idea of support, and with proximity, and what is colloquially referred to as enmeshment. There are also the very real differences among our children: drug use, capacities, disabilities, as we are different, too: culturally, age, needs, to name a few. I fall in SRTL"s camp. I do not believe withdrawing support or even distance, changes anybody. And fortunately what this year has shown me about myself, my son, and our relationship, that I do not need to do this. If my support and proximity were not the culprits here what was? My son has drown the line, and as if said, [I]no more. I will no longer be demonized by you. [/I]Because he hears us as making him wrong, making him the bad buy--when we impose our rules or way of living on him. [I]You are the one who chose to come here, to our house, into our life, Not the other way around[/I], we respond. He does not see or feel as support, our opening our doors, as long as we want for ourselves, and do not capitulate to him. It is a question of power. Of the right to autonomy and self-direction and the personal obligation for self-definition. All of these values that are centrally important to me. He was resisting. I believe in resisting. I am proud of my son. He is becoming a man. I was so struck over and over again at how good a man he is, and just incredulous that I was able to raise a good man, a good person. Decent. Loving. Kind. Caring. Thoughtful. You see, he is all of these things. And this is what I need to remember. This was what we were after, and it made it worth it to me. A good man. But now I have to release him mentally. And this thread has helped me immeasurably. I am reading a book about Moses. Now I see why I could almost could not bear it, his mother releasing him onto the water. But she did it. Thank you everybody. [/QUOTE]
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